Maguire | he stays!

When I read the thread title Harry vs Sun Readers I thought Maguire was arguing on social media with fans who would be abusing him after believing the Sun article.
 
Redlyn said:
I don't even know what that means. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. My issue is him wanting far more overall (pay off + new contract) while getting huge cash upfront. What has he given up in that case? Instead he is looking to gain massively. So the options are fleece the club or stay and stink up the place. I guess we are going with the latter. So be it.

Release clauses exist for player to exit. So I was wondering if there any win win clause that allows the club to exit without one party necessarily being the big winner (as harry would be in this case if his demands are met). Does this exist anywhere.
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Just on the contract part.

In pro football contracts, they basically boil down to:

- on the club side, once the player signs on the dotted line, he gives up his time for the duration of the contract to the club, that includes training sessions, football matches, travel, etc..., Regardless of his status, whether he is a regular starter, rotation, bench player or sent to the u21.

- on the player side, he is entitled to every penny in the contract as long as the contract is valid, no such thing as eerned not earned, once the club and player sign that contract, the player is entitled to the entirety of the money stipulated in that contract

From there, everything is then negotiable, if the club wants a player to leave, he is entitled to ask for every penny of the current contract, if the player wants to leave, the club is entitled to ask for any fee, so to facilitate an exit, both sides (club and player) must negotiate, sometimes a player would be getting a bigger contract in the next club so normally he wouldn't ask for the reminder of his contract to be paid upfront because the selling club can say no and he would risk losing the bigger contract, on the flip side, a club may offer an upfront of reminder of the contract (or part of it) to incentivise the player to move on to another club that is offering less money, and sometimes a player who could be moving to lesser team and will surely get lesser money might ask his current club to let him go for free or small fee, there are also other possibilities, but purely on principles of agreement in the contract, both sides have entitlements and a negotiation is needed to reach a compromise.

Now back to Maguire, not sure what's true but on principle, he is entitled to demand the money that remains in his current contract (or at least the difference) if he is going to a club that will pay him less than what he currently earns.
 
Katy Cat said:
First post here, extended from what I wrote in the newbie forum...

Gosh, Harry Maguire, where to start? I'm not wild about him - he's not a terrible player (really, he's not) but he was a terrible signing. He's a textbook example of the hype that too often surrounds England (E-N-G-E-R-L-A-N-D?). Hype fuelled by the usual suspects in the tabloid media. Like The Sun. Honestly, savvy recruiters should always have red flags on newbie, now 'world class' England players. All the more as, outside of tournament end stages, international games are low-grade.

Harry was the exception to the Tarkowskis, the Dan Burns and the Ben See types - for the record, all pretty decent players - because he got picked, stayed put and scored headers, all at a time when England got better and became likeable. Unfortunately for us, it coincided with a time when were desperate to be seen to get the next Big Thing as a central defender, someone who chose Utd, someone we could style as the next VVD. Our very own transformational leader.

He's been bit a bit unlucky with the manager churn, the shift in systems and the whole captaincy thing, but the reality is that he's never had much pace and is devoid of any mobility. His confidence has disintegrated - he very obviously lacks trust in other players - and we're now at the liability stage.

It's on him and his advisors from here but you hope he goes and there's a deal to be done. It's right for us (we get something back on a rapidly declining asset); right for a team like WHU (he'd be OK for them); and right for him (a chance to repair his reputation and retain favour with Gareth).
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All very well and I agree from a purely football perspective.

However, his next contract will be his last big one. He clearly knows that United will not renew at anything near his current terms. So I'm sure his agents have advised him to run down his current contract and move on a free in the hope of getting one last big payday.

Of course this is completely delusional. His pace (or lack of it) is already on the decline and being a bit part player for two seasons will shoot this wonderful plan in the foot. West Ham will offer him, what, 120k/week right now. Two years older with little game time and more and more meme time, he could very easily end up in the boat that Lingard is in right now.

It feels like he's listening to unreliable voices in his entourage be it his agents or maybe just his ego.
 
lex talionis said:
Harry may well have concluded that he’s already lost his place in the NT and if that’s the case all he’s got left is a vacuum cleaner that specializes in hoovering cash.

And it’s hard to see Harry having any kind of future career in management, punditry or consulting.
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I could see him doing the old, retro style thing of owning a gastropub with guest craft ales at £10 a pint and ploughman's lunches for £25.
 
Katy Cat said:
He's been bit a bit unlucky with the manager churn, the shift in systems and the whole captaincy thing, but the reality is that he's never had much pace and is devoid of any mobility. His confidence has disintegrated - he very obviously lacks trust in other players - and we're now at the liability stage.

It's on him and his advisors from here but you hope he goes and there's a deal to be done. It's right for us (we get something back on a rapidly declining asset); right for a team like WHU (he'd be OK for them); and right for him (a chance to repair his reputation and retain favour with Gareth).
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Which makes you wonder why he didnt start afresh and resurrect his career somewhere he is wanted. Why stay where the manager doesnt really rate you, and will do his best not to use you
 
OmarUnited4ever said:
Just on the contract part.

In pro football contracts, they basically boil down to:

- on the club side, once the player signs on the dotted line, he gives up his time for the duration of the contract to the club, that includes training sessions, football matches, travel, etc..., Regardless of his status, whether he is a regular starter, rotation, bench player or sent to the u21.

- on the player side, he is entitled to every penny in the contract as long as the contract is valid, no such thing as eerned not earned, once the club and player sign that contract, the player is entitled to the entirety of the money stipulated in that contract

From there, everything is then negotiable, if the club wants a player to leave, he is entitled to ask for every penny of the current contract, if the player wants to leave, the club is entitled to ask for any fee, so to facilitate an exit, both sides (club and player) must negotiate, sometimes a player would be getting a bigger contract in the next club so normally he wouldn't ask for the reminder of his contract to be paid upfront because the selling club can say no and he would risk losing the bigger contract, on the flip side, a club may offer an upfront of reminder of the contract (or part of it) to incentivise the player to move on to another club that is offering less money, and sometimes a player who could be moving to lesser team and will surely get lesser money might ask his current club to let him go for free or small fee, there are also other possibilities, but purely on principles of agreement in the contract, both sides have entitlements and a negotiation is needed to reach a compromise.

Now back to Maguire, not sure what's true but on principle, he is entitled to demand the money that remains in his current contract (or at least the difference) if he is going to a club that will pay him less than what he currently earns.
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Ok thanks for this. I guess it doesn't really happen for a club to have an exit clause. The only way is to reach an agreement for the player to leave.
 
I was just thinking of another angle here. Lets assume united is paying him 10m a year, so 20m over 2 years. Now west ham is offering 6m so basically 12m for the same period. If he was paid out the difference it would be 8m. However in 2 years the scenario would be different if he stayed as he would leave as a free agent and maybe get a sign on bonus to sign elsewhere say 7m bringing his total package to 27m at the start of the 3rd season.

While if he moved now for a fee he would lose that sign on bonus opportunity in 2 years and basically be stuck with his 20m payout+salary. To compensate, the club would need to pay up say 15m now instead of 8m. So in short this whole thing is more complex than we think probably.
 
Redlyn said:
I was just thinking of another angle here. Lets assume united is paying him 10m a year, so 20m over 2 years. Now west ham is offering 6m so basically 12m for the same period. If he was paid out the difference it would be 8m. However in 2 years the scenario would be different if he stayed as he would leave as a free agent and maybe get a sign on bonus to sign elsewhere say 7m bringing his total package to 27m at the start of the 3rd season.

While if he moved now for a fee he would lose that sign on bonus opportunity in 2 years and basically be stuck with his 20m payout+salary. To compensate, the club would need to pay up say 15m now instead of 8m. So in short this whole thing is more complex than we think probably.
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Good point. I'm sure his advisors are considering more angles than we are (and who knows whether Maguire has an assurance from Southgate regarding Euro 2024 in the back pocket already).
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Huh? Then why was Maguire in the matchday squad? Keep naming him to squads and of course he's going to think he can fight for his place.
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It's worse to get dressed up, travel, warmed up, and getting into the right mental frame of mind for every match -- and not get selected to start or even come on as sub for the entire season.
 
Redlyn said:
I was just thinking of another angle here. Lets assume united is paying him 10m a year, so 20m over 2 years. Now west ham is offering 6m so basically 12m for the same period. If he was paid out the difference it would be 8m. However in 2 years the scenario would be different if he stayed as he would leave as a free agent and maybe get a sign on bonus to sign elsewhere say 7m bringing his total package to 27m at the start of the 3rd season.

While if he moved now for a fee he would lose that sign on bonus opportunity in 2 years and basically be stuck with his 20m payout+salary. To compensate, the club would need to pay up say 15m now instead of 8m. So in short this whole thing is more complex than we think probably.
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I am pretty sure both parties have done their analysis. The only variable not included is whether Harry will be selected to play the next season. By then both his value to the club and to himself as a free agent would plummet.
 
sglowrider said:
I am pretty sure both parties have done their analysis. The only variable not included is whether Harry will be selected to play the next season. By then both his value to the club and to himself as a free agent would plummet.
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See lingard as an example of what not to do.
 
Lash said:
See lingard as an example of what not to do.
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Precisely. I had mentioned him as an example a few pages ago.

Now the young lad is struggling to find a club that would match his ambitions and extract the maximum out of his potential.
 
Devil You Know said:
Maguire was a useful cog in Ole's machine for his first two full seasons that saw back to back top 3 finishes. That's clearly not inept for either manager or player.

Ole was then sacked after 5 PL losses into his third season. Everything that's happened to Maguire since then has been under Rangnick (an actual inept manager) and EtH.
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Those “famed” top 3 finishes were played in empty stadiums and had relatively low points total.

Maguire proved not good enough way before Rangnick took over. ETH just did what Ole should have done and did not have the balls to do.
 
McGrathsipan said:
why because he wants the money the club offered to him in a contract?

I want him gone from a football point of view but calling him a prick because he wont walk away from million of pounds is ludicrous. He should forget about millions because the current manager doesn't want to play him? Have a day off.

Zero of any of us would leave a job if we were entitled to stay and get a massive payout.
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Nothing to do with the reasons you stated.

His delusions of grandeur. His sheer arrogance. Comments he’s made regarding his performances when they’ve been subpar, especially around the time of the World Cup when he insisted he deserved to be a starter.

His actions and words surrounding the whole Greece fiasco cemented how much of a douche he was as well.

Plenty of footballers out there seem like pricks without anything to do with money. John Terry and Craig Bellamy are good examples.

So I won’t have a day off, thanks.
 
Manncunian said:
Nothing to do with the reasons you stated.

His delusions of grandeur. His sheer arrogance. Comments he’s made regarding his performances when they’ve been subpar, especially around the time of the World Cup when he insisted he deserved to be a starter.

His actions and words surrounding the whole Greece fiasco cemented how much of a douche he was as well.

So I won’t have a day off, thanks.
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:lol:
 
The day he's shift out I'll celebrate as though I had just won a huge lottery pay out.
 
How is this not a wake up call for southgate that there is so little desire from even mid table sides to take on Maguire
 
Gandalf said:
I think that for the purposes of this season though we would only be looking at 1 years salary saved so back to 30M fee plus 10M wages saved in this years accounts offset by the 26M amoritization hit leaves a positive balance of 14M. If we payoff Harry that comes out of the 14M so anywhere from 7M to 15M depending on who you believe and that is in essence what is killing any chance of a deal.

The Glazers are clearly not willing to sanction any more spending this summer that is not paid for by sales. Presumably a 14M profit on Harry is enough as we can spread the cost of his replacement through amoritization and that is why we said yes to 30M. The request for a payoff though will not leave enough of a positive balance on the trade for us to bring in a replacement so if we pay Harry off we are down to 3 senior CBs plus Shaw.
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Right, that makes more sense. Thanks for explaining.
 
izak said:
The day he's shift out I'll celebrate as though I had just won a huge lottery pay out.
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By then we will be saddled with more shite that we can't shift, likely to be Sancho, Antony and one of Dalot or AWB because of their new expensive contracts!
 
Redlyn said:
I was just thinking of another angle here. Lets assume united is paying him 10m a year, so 20m over 2 years. Now west ham is offering 6m so basically 12m for the same period. If he was paid out the difference it would be 8m. However in 2 years the scenario would be different if he stayed as he would leave as a free agent and maybe get a sign on bonus to sign elsewhere say 7m bringing his total package to 27m at the start of the 3rd season.

While if he moved now for a fee he would lose that sign on bonus opportunity in 2 years and basically be stuck with his 20m payout+salary. To compensate, the club would need to pay up say 15m now instead of 8m. So in short this whole thing is more complex than we think probably.
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He's not getting any signing on bonus if he just sat on the bench for 2 years. His stock is also very low now and will go only lower if he did nothing for two years.
 
If he's within his professional rights to stay, then so are we to keep him out of the squad. Just can't flush
 
This has turned into a clusterfeck to be honest! I am upset with Harry for his reluctance to leave, but I also dont put all the blame on him. United worked a shitty deal, (plain and simple). This is the fault of the club for not doing better business to start with.
All of these players on these ridiculous wages make it damn near impossible to move them on.

United should have eaten the loss and moved on. Keeping him in the team is like living next door to your ex wife whilst trying to keep the homelife happy with your new wife. Its not impossible, but why put yourself thru the mud like that to begin with.
 
Artimities said:
This has turned into a clusterfeck to be honest! I am upset with Harry for his reluctance to leave, but I also dont put all the blame on him. United worked a shitty deal, (plain and simple). This is the fault of the club for not doing better business to start with.
All of these players on these ridiculous wages make it damn near impossible to move them on.

United should have eaten the loss and moved on. Keeping him in the team is like living next door to your ex wife whilst trying to keep the homelife happy with your new wife. Its not impossible, but why put yourself thru the mud like that to begin with.
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for me i think the club shouldve done a better job for getting what they could for mctominay, since that was going to be pure profit and allow for more spending. Unfortunately thanks to the leeches it wouldnt quite be that simple. For maguire there would be a certain threshold to reach in order for selling to make sense, so i at least somewhat understand
 
Lee565 said:
How is this not a wake up call for southgate that there is so little desire from even mid table sides to take on Maguire
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There is a slim chance he's England starting CB at the Euros if he stays I think.

Southgate could get away with picking him up until this summer as he had only just been dropped this season... but 2 seasons on the bounce is too much.
 
FerociousCorgis said:
for me i think the club shouldve done a better job for getting what they could for mctominay, since that was going to be pure profit and allow for more spending. Unfortunately thanks to the leeches it wouldnt quite be that simple. For maguire there would be a certain threshold to reach in order for selling to make sense, so i at least somewhat understand
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I like your thoughts. It's really a big game of moving parts isnt it? A perfect storm of what we need versus what we have to move.
Our midfield last year needed work so we get quick (not long term) fixes with Casemiro. Fred provided the hustle and McTominay the height off the bench. Both are not good enough, so we get mount and id the Defensive sideman for Casemiro. However... we sell Fred and cant afford him, so we have to Keep McTominay for height because we want to move Harry.
Its literally like we are moving pieces to replace it with the next piece... but we never have the right people line up at the right time. I fear we will be stuck with a very incomplete team.
Back line is incomplete as long as Harry is in it, and now our midfield is incomplete with McTominay in a role that he is not good in....
Hell, we couldnt even push hard for a back up to our new striker so we settle for Martial again. All around jokes to be honest.
 
Artimities said:
I like your thoughts. It's really a big game of moving parts isnt it? A perfect storm of what we need versus what we have to move.
Our midfield last year needed work so we get quick (not long term) fixes with Casemiro. Fred provided the hustle and McTominay the height off the bench. Both are not good enough, so we get mount and id the Defensive sideman for Casemiro. However... we sell Fred and cant afford him, so we have to Keep McTominay for height because we want to move Harry.
Its literally like we are moving pieces to replace it with the next piece... but we never have the right people line up at the right time. I fear we will be stuck with a very incomplete team.
Back line is incomplete as long as Harry is in it, and now our midfield is incomplete with McTominay in a role that he is not good in....
Hell, we couldnt even push hard for a back up to our new striker so we settle for Martial again. All around jokes to be honest.
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personally i think the club shouldve just accepted the 60 million double offer mctominay/maguire. Had that gone thru we couldve got rid of maguire, added amrabat, and if im assuming they can do whatever the hell FFP math chelsea does couldve found a cheap up and coming 5th cb prospect to start grooming.
 
Devil You Know said:
Maguire was a useful cog in Ole's machine for his first two full seasons that saw back to back top 3 finishes. That's clearly not inept for either manager or player.

Ole was then sacked after 5 PL losses into his third season. Everything that's happened to Maguire since then has been under Rangnick (an actual inept manager) and EtH.
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Appointing Ole full-time was a massive mistake and the Maguire signing was a disaster by every single metric possible.
 
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