You accuse people of being ridiculous and then the first thing you say is that...People here are so ridiculous. Team playing well. Youth coming through. Players coming back.
What should we do ?
Sack LvG.
LVG Out Thread | BBC: Sacked!
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Yes, but the main difference between experienced players and youngsters is that they have seen a lot of the situations on the pitch before and know by experience what to do and what not to do. But if you play in a well organized system most of those situations aren't unique at all, so it's not necessary for a youngster to experience all those situations himself. He can also learn from the experience from others, it just needs to be presented in a way the youngster has a clear answer to what to do and what not to do if the situation on the pitch occurs. That's where Van Gaal comes in, he's got translate the complexity of the machine to simple rules for the new cog, so he won't be insecure and doesn't take too much time to make decisions.
That doesn't make experience unimportant, but mainly for the extra's, not for the normal situations to be expected in a match.
Imagine if Rooney's absurd status in the team carries on next season as well. Would really be mental yet wouldn't surprise me at all.
No matter what happens for the rest of this season I think LVG is off in the summer, with LVG most actively pushing for it.
If he was so sure of the youth, why did he even spend a penny in the summer on big names? His hand was forced with injury & he's come up trumps so far. It's insane how people get swayed with one good result (Shrewsbury, Mitjiland & Watford should be cannon fodder to Utd, so they dont count). Lets not forget that Moyes had a good result at OT against Arsenal... suppose you'd have him back too?
I think that'll happen even if we change managers, amol.
With any luck Rooney will be in China next season & Martial will be leading the line, Rashford as back up and hopefully one big signing in the summer... Zlatan is a free agent at the end of the season.... just saying!
I think people are making too much of the youth in a negative or positive way.
LVG took a calculated risk in having a squad with only a certain amount of experienced players. He could have had a squad full of experienced players, but those that would replace the youth in the current squad would be real bit part players. Debatable whether they would make much of a difference as most of them would not make the first team in the normal course of events. The fact we have so many injuries, he would have had to use those players as he has done with the youth, so what is with the LVG is forced to use them as though it is some big negative, seems such a weak point to attack him on.
It also seems strange that the LVG Out brigade have been arguing mainly on 2 fronts, the football has been dross for a large amount of LVG's reign (not many going to argue with that), and they have no confidence that he will win anything. The latter being the main argument for having Jose. So it seems strange that if LVG gets the team in a position to win something, you still want him out. Particularly because to get to a position of winning, the team will have to start playing consistently at a high level.
Why not just forget the weak arguments (and the "that doesn't count because they are shit" arguments to make a petty point) and stick to the plain old "I want him gone". You don't have to justify that point anymore, because there are so many holes in your arguments.
Can some anti LVG fans explain to me how if we have 7 players in their prime (26-30), 7 players experienced( 30+) and 28 players under the age of 25....how is it possible that he only plays youngsters during injuries?
So a strong finish to the season under LVG and the kids and you want Maureen and Zlatan and the circus them two would create with fall outs and tantrums.....ha!!!!!!!!!!!
we didn't play well against Watford, we were lucky. Yes we had good games against Arsenal, the mighty Midtjylland and Shrewsbury, apart from that we've been shit for months.People here are so ridiculous. Team playing well. Youth coming through. Players coming back.
What should we do ?
Sack LvG.
And we've been playing youth because we don't have anything else.
I'm not sure about sacking LvG, but I understand people who want him out a.s.a.p.
Save your breath, I smell revisionism in the air.
Not even that, as time goes on I not only wouldnt be surprised by it, I find it difficult to envisage it playing out any other way. His wages make him difficult to sell but inappropriate to be used as a squad player. It is hard to imagine him going to one of the tinpot leagues where they might shell out the kind of money he would need to consider moving - the only hope there, for me, is America, its hard to imagine him in China or the Middle East. If not, we are stuck with him and it seems like it is easier to stick our head in the sand and say he is still our best player than accept we made a mistake spending so much to keep him (though for me it is understandable why the club acted the way they did, him leaving would have added to the perception of crisis.)
Itll be interesting to see if a new manager takes a different line with Rooney. I guess as far as the manager is concerned, what a player is paid is irrelevant to whether he will be picked, so maybe he will find his status diminished, but I still find it hard to see. If he does end up as a squad player Woodward is going to be under enormous pressure to move him on from a financial perspective, which wont be easy, so he'll need to pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Maybe Rooney will be drawn to the US if Trump wins.
People need to relax with Rooney. Yes he is bad at times but this is the Oldest player we can have as a striker. All our strikers can learn something from Rooney, alot of our attacking midfielders can learn things from Rooney.
His time will come.. Until then respect what the guy has done for us and what he can still do for us.
Is there really any point getting an even older striker?
We are a younger team week by week & players like Rooney and Schweinsteiger or Carrick have things that can be useful to us. Why people in such a rush I have no idea.
Some of you are willing to sacrifice youngsters & then getting rid of experienced players for players all in their Prime.
What kind of team do you really suppprt?
His time will come.. Until then respect what the guy has done for us and what he can still do for us.
Is there really any point getting an even older striker?
We are a younger team week by week & players like Rooney and Schweinsteiger or Carrick have things that can be useful to us. Why people in such a rush I have no idea.
Some of you are willing to sacrifice youngsters & then getting rid of experienced players for players all in their Prime.
What kind of team do you really suppprt?
Who else was there to play? Rooney and Martial were out, no other striker in the squad so he played Rashford. No right winger (or anyone of quality), so he plays Lingard, no left back so he played CBJ, Riley Poole, no right back so he played Varela. What's so surprising about that?
absolutely nothing surprising about that. just the basic truth.
That's not true. Holland nearly won the World Cup and they weren't consistently playing at a high level. United have won more than 10 premier league matches this season but how many have occurred playing at a high level? We can win cups not consistently playing at a high level and that's what I would expect from us. Snatch and grab wins after playing uneventful risk free football, De Gea MoTM. We have seen it multiple times in our premier league wins. Kind of like a Rafa Benitez win. If we win the Europa playing good football, that would be a plus, and I would be 50/50. I would still have some apprehension though as its against europe's B standard. The standard at United is challenging for the premier league and being competitive in the Champions League. Not the B-level competitions. Things like the F.A. cup should be seen as sweeteners in an otherwise competitive campaign. Not our pride and glory. Arsenal been winning the F.A. cup like its nothing nowadays.
Are you nuts? Tell me why we would have treble the amount of youngsters compared to our prime players and then why over our experienced players.
We have double the amount of youngsters im the squad from the start or near abouts.
Your telling me he places that much emphasis on youth and that playing them in during injuries is something he didn't plan on doing?
My gawd.
You are talking about the FA cup as though it is our prime target, which it clearly isnt.
You diss the Europa yet most of the teams remaining in it were qualified for the CL. Some of the others like Spurs are having a good season.
When you talk about Watford, it was us that create the bulk of their chances by miscalculating the weather, not by good play by Watford. You need to consider how well the opposition, play before resorting to we were poor. We, like other teams, struggle when playing high pressing teams. That said we were pretty good when we kept the ball on the deck. Our speed at getting from defence to attack continued the current trend. We are not as shit as people make out in this thread.
You only have to look at what confidence has done to Depay, Schniederlin and Herrera to see it wasn't all the manager creating the dross football, add Rooney to that bracket and you have a third of the team playing poorly in the first half of the season. Again, since new year I would argue Sunderland and away to midgetland were poor, but other games have been considerably better. Even Liverpool was a reasonable away game, no different to Southampton against us at OT.
Martial has had the same length of time at the club as 3 other first teamers, but has never been too cautious. So to say the players have had attacking intent drummed out of them is very wide of the mark.
Contrary to what people have said in this thread LVG and his coaches have influenced the youth team from day 1, maybe not on a day to day basis, but in explaining the philosophy. There are even videos of them being trained by LVG coaches. The youth are more focused on making an impression, showing a little inexperience, but no fear. They are carrying out his instructions to the letter.
We have 6 wins in 8 competitive matches, 4 wins on the trot, yet we apparently are still shit. Really do not get it.
People said when LVG came they wanted to see attractive football, youth players and trophies. The former is not there consistently, and is more dross than entertaining. Ignoring the new batch of youth, Adnan, Wilson, Lingard, McNair, Blackett, Pereira were given full games and part games in pre-season, cup, CL and PL games. In most cases they did not deliver. This latter bunch have delivered more in arguably more difficult circumstances. Trophies, may be some way off, but the season is not over yet.
[QUOTE="Santiago_KinderBueno, post: 18881386, member: 96090"]Are you nuts? Tell me why we would have treble the amount of youngsters compared to our prime players and then why over our experienced players.
We have double the amount of youngsters im the squad from the start or near abouts.
Your telling me he places that much emphasis on youth and that playing them in during injuries is something he didn't plan on doing?
My gawd.[/QUOTE]
No, are you? Who else was there to play when the experienced players went down?
We have double the amount of youngsters im the squad from the start or near abouts.
Your telling me he places that much emphasis on youth and that playing them in during injuries is something he didn't plan on doing?
My gawd.[/QUOTE]
No, are you? Who else was there to play when the experienced players went down?
No, are you? Who else was there to play when the experienced players went down?[/QUOTE]
We have 7 & 7 of experienced and players in their prime. Expecting them not to get injured and being replaced with the 28 players under 25 is ludicrous.
The only reason people refuse to believe van Gaal influence on kids is because they have largely played better than everybody else. We have something to talk about.
If they were shit - no one would say shit.
When thr main squad is playing shit - LVG is shit. When kids play well - it's all down to the kids... Absolutely amazing!
If they were shit - no one would say shit.
When thr main squad is playing shit - LVG is shit. When kids play well - it's all down to the kids
... Absolutely amazing!Because it's better to ease them in a side with a bit of experience, also for the development the youngsters themselves.
He knew that he would have to look to the academy in case of injuries, not to this extend because there are more injuries than expected. But if het wouldn't have let his hand forced and signed a lot of players to cover for injuries, the youth wouldn't have gotten a chance because the manager has to manage the happiness in the squad too.
No, where did I give the impression that I base my choice on results only, or even one result? That you can't look beyond results doesn't mean I'm not capable of that too.
Can we keep him just to host the end of season award shows?
It's very amusing to see this new narrative of LVG the champion of youth, it's utter nonsense. If he had included youngsters in his squad rotation or if they were second or even third choice people might have a point but that didn't happen.
Some of these players weren't even fourth or fifth choice and when LVG spoke about giving chances to youngsters he meant the likes of Wilson, McNair and pereira not players who didn't even have squad numbers and whose names he probably didn't even know. He also tried to sign mane, pedro, Ramos and most recently debuchy and has been forced to play people because he mismanaged the squad.
Credit to him for getting the kids to play well but it's also quite damning for him that it has taken players who he didn't want to pick like depay, Herrera and schneiderlein and youngsters who weren't even on his radar or who he didn't rate like varela to actually play some decent football. When he has options and has everyone playing to his philosophy we look worse than when he has to piece a team together. He stumbled on something last year but as soon as he had to adapt and it stopped working he was back to square one and no doubt that will happen again any game now.
I have no doubt he is a great coach and will be helping these players now they are involved in training but this wasn't planned or thought out. As a tactician, a motivator, a squad and man manager he just isn't up to the grade and that's why he has been a failure.
Some of these players weren't even fourth or fifth choice and when LVG spoke about giving chances to youngsters he meant the likes of Wilson, McNair and pereira not players who didn't even have squad numbers and whose names he probably didn't even know. He also tried to sign mane, pedro, Ramos and most recently debuchy and has been forced to play people because he mismanaged the squad.
Credit to him for getting the kids to play well but it's also quite damning for him that it has taken players who he didn't want to pick like depay, Herrera and schneiderlein and youngsters who weren't even on his radar or who he didn't rate like varela to actually play some decent football. When he has options and has everyone playing to his philosophy we look worse than when he has to piece a team together. He stumbled on something last year but as soon as he had to adapt and it stopped working he was back to square one and no doubt that will happen again any game now.
I have no doubt he is a great coach and will be helping these players now they are involved in training but this wasn't planned or thought out. As a tactician, a motivator, a squad and man manager he just isn't up to the grade and that's why he has been a failure.
LVG does deserve a certain element of acknowledgement and praise for his willingness to give youth a chance, but I do think it's a fair point that he's largely done so due to injuries. Even if our squad is quite thin because he's happy to rely on academy products when needed, that doesn't deny the fact that he's largely depended on more experienced players for much of the season. Which is fine - because very few managers would be willing to rely on youth at all, but he's hardly done something as ballsy as throwing in Rashford for a big game when Rooney was fit and underperforming, for example.
Credit where it's due, but I don't think it's necessarily been a magnificent achievement. Especially when some of them might just be dropped again if we have a fully fit squad at any point.
Credit where it's due, but I don't think it's necessarily been a magnificent achievement. Especially when some of them might just be dropped again if we have a fully fit squad at any point.
The only reason people refuse to believe van Gaal influence on kids is because they have largely played better than everybody else. We have something to talk about.
If they were shit - no one would say shit.
When thr main squad is playing shit - LVG is shit. When kids play well - it's all down to the kids
Could be probably down to the fact that there were players that joined us that followed that trajectory, from being good/decent into being absolute shite.
He's got absolutely nothing on how the youth play, Rashfords, Loves, Rileys, CBJs, Varelas, how they play, what they do is down to our academy coaches. They haven't been indoctrinated by LVG's bullshit yet, which is a blessing.
Not if he is going to continue as an automatic starter. He really has no business having this "must start" status. If it continues were going to have many more trophyless years. A club that wants to win big trophies can't have such a situation. So no, his time has to come now. If he'd a squad player then great. If he's a starter without question then were in trouble.
I'm not so sure. There's a lot I don't like about Jose but he's always been brave to drop big players. Like Terry.
We are in 5th place.
Out of the CL.
Out of the League Cup.
Still in the FA Cup because we haven't played any decent team.
We are not doing well.
Perhaps you think that MUFC should not compete for the trophies and that top 5 is our true level?
If you are happy with all of the above, then vote to keep him in.
Me...I voted after the disastrous December, to get him out. His possession style of football has not worked, even after 18 months.
We performed well only after LVG's first string of players got injured, so he had to field players nurtured by Warren Joyce. He had no other choice.
Surely that should tell you something?
It's not as if Rooney has a 1 in a 2.3 ratio either. I mean, any striker worth his salt should have more than that.
I disagree because I can not acknowledge someone for doing something forced upon him by circumstances, that he did when his back is against the wall and that he did when it was almost too little too late to save his job and our season. He's ignored Rushford, Varela, Perreira and CBJ when our seniors were in such dire form that might as well have been considered injured. Like you said, if had dropped Rooney in the first half of the season and played kids then it would be a completely different matter. Managers who are genuinely interested in youth play them because they believe in them not because they have to, imo.
Indeed.
He just hasn't had time to "convert" these players.
Once he does this, I would bet that they will learn possession football and know how to side/back pass. They won't have a clue how to score/create a goal...which is in-line with most of our first teamers.
What really shocked me was when he sold Di Maria (because he didn't know how to use him) and attempted to sell DDG. How are we going to beat the best teams if our manager does not know how to manage Galactico level players?
If he had Messi, Neymar and Suarez, he'd probably end up selling all of them because he doesn't know how to manage them.
And lets not forget about the insistence to have Rooney start games even though he was terrible. Same for Falcao, last season.
LVG seems to love players who can't score goals and only drops them when they physically cannot stand on the pitch.
Spot on!
The top 2 points are facts. Not a lot we can do about that, did you vote to get rid of Fergie when we got dumped out of the league cup by some pretty shit teams, far worse than Middlesbrough, or when we lost to some no-mark in the CL? It happens we played poorly and really got what we deserved. Not what any of us wanted.
You make it sound as though as soon as we meet someone good we will not be in the FA cup, when we have done better against the better teams. It is hardly LVGs fault we have not been drawn against a good team in the FA cup. We can only play who we are drawn against.
We are 5th with 25% of the season to go, it is not finished yet. You talk as though that is all we are going to achieve. Who knows where we will finish up, could be higher could be a lot worse. I am pretty sure everyone on this site expected a PL challenge this year, because LVG brought in 5 odd new players. Nobody would think 5th or lower is a good final position.
I have not changed my stance from day 1, that LVG came with a 3 year plan with Giggs as heir apparent, and I am still fairly confident that by the end of the plan LVG will have done well and who ever takes over will only need to tweak. A vastly different scenario to what he took over from, IMO just a shame he did not come in directly after Fergie. Does that mean I find all our performance acceptable, No. Does it mean I wont be pissed if in his first 2 years we don't win anything or don't improve, No. But I also don't put a lot of our dross down to him.
I have argued in other threads that if you now see what a confident Depay, Herrera and Schniederlin can do then it is not too far a stretch to see what an impact they would have on a team when the play poorly, like they did for the first half of the season. Add a misfiring Rooney and the problems become a lot easier to understand when a third of the first team are not performing. It had sweet FA to do with philosophy or tactics, these players started the season badly and lost all confidence, their positioning, passing and effort levels all dropped. Some other players have been appalling, other have lost form, but it is too easy for some on here to just finger point at LVG. Not saying he hasn't contributed, but putting 100% blame has been very unfair.
In addition, if as some on here would have us believe, LVG sucks the attacking intent out of players, why is Martial and Lingard still performing as they do, why do these youngsters who come in(who will follow his instructions to a tee) also play as they do. It just doesn't add up.
I am not trying to convince you to change your vote, I just think the LVG bashers go way OTT on the negativity and finger pointing. They just refer to, as you did, we only won because others are shitter than us. If LVG goes, he goes, not sure even the fans who are classed as LVG apologist will lose sleep over it. Think it is going to pretty much destroy the summer for many LVG bashers if he stays.
That's completely true, I have been too lazy to right the same thing. Particularly concerning Varela, he played at least 4 players before giving him a chance.
You've made some very good points here mate.
Why didn't he promote Rashford when Rooney and Martial were not able to hit a barn door earlier in the season? Why not give CBJ a chance earlier in the season? He didn't do this, because they weren't even in his thinking. The youngsters have only recently been given chances because he didn't have any other options available.
This whole LVG youth promotion master plan that his sympathisers keep peddling is utter utter dingo shite topped with raccoon shit and monkey custard!
Sadly agree with this, iv seen suggestions lately that the decision to keep Rooney as the focus is completely a financial one for the board, as he's apparently what the sponsors pay for and we have nobody with the same or similar appeal. If thats the case, i can see him being our main man next year too sadly, no matter how bad that is for the team.
I cant see us getting top four or winning the Europa, which means likely no CL next season, and if you want to get Rooney out of the team, he seemingly needs to be replaced by a big name, not just a better player. And the likes of Neymar etc who might have that sponsor appeal are not likely to move to a United side in crisis and not playing Champions League football when they could go to City or the likes instead who can offer them better team mates, likely better management and better trophy prospects, and just as much money.
This. And on the bolded point the signs were there against Watford that it isn't going to last long. Arsenal also lost at home to a Swansea side as weakened as ours was.
LVG has played his top tier youth as follows:
Adnan 6 Games (4/2)
Keane 2 games (0/2)
Lingad 25 games (20/5)
McNair 8 Games (4/4)
Periera 11 games (2/9)
Wilson 2 games (1/1)
Powell 2 games (0/2)
None of these bar Lingard made an impression to suggest they should be given more time as first choice. So with injuries, it was obvious LVG had to look elsewhere, that is where the academy come in.
I really don't get your point about using players like CBJ. Because of injuries, LVG has a choice play McNair in a CB position, where he has not shown his true ability and move Blind left, or keep his central pairing and bring in a natural LB. He made a choice, he wasn't forced to play CBJ, it was a calculated choice. In nearly every other situation it was the same.
Try reading back to the post that I was responding to. Only reason he played, or is playing the youth players is because all the seniors in that position are injured. I am not saying that any of them are good enough for the first team or not.
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