Luke Shaw | Deal done! Almost...

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Elliott said:
You know we've put in a bad-ass bid when the people who payed 80m combined for Torres and Sheva raise their eyebrows.

It's a game of margins these days, every position is vitally important. Having quality full-backs who are effective both ways will win you a lot of games over the course of a season.
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Heh. Not to mention that it's slightly ironic for a Chelsea fan to sniff at the price being paid for a fullback when they went through what seemed like two or three years spunking 10m+ for a right back every fecking transfer window.

This fee can only ever accurately be judged in hindsight. What's really expensive is spending large sums of money on a series of flops in order to fill the same position. If signing Shaw for 27m means we don't need to sign another left back for the next 10 years then it will look like money very well spent indeed.
 
Shark22 said:
If Januzaj and Mata go on to become key players in winning us multiple trophies for the years to come, you don't think that Moyes will be at least partially praised? I think that he handled Januzaj' debut season brilliantly and landing Mata was sizeable achievement. Not to mention him keeping Rooney here.
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I doubt Moyes has to be praised for Rooney and Mata. He gave a debut to Januzaj, so that could be among his credits.

Rooney stayed because he got the money he wanted, if he was serious about leaving, he'd have behaved differently. Mata went to United because Mourinho didn't rate him, the World Cup was a few months away and MU is one of the biggest clubs around. The fact, that Moyes was in charge, didn't really matter.
 
antihenry said:
Torres and Sheva were considered world class strikers at that time. Regardless of how their careers panned out, those type of players on average cost the most in the transfer market. If you look at the best fullbacks in the league, players like Zabaleta, Azpilicueta, Sagna, Ivanovic, Evra, etc, they cost under 10m when the big clubs bought them. I know times change and fees get higher, but apart from Dani Alves, I can't remember any other fullback commanding those kind of fees.
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You should eat more oily fish. Your memory is terrible. You can't even remember fullbacks from your own club. Fereirra cost you 13m and Bosingwa 16m.
 
antihenry said:
Torres and Sheva were considered world class strikers at that time. Regardless of how their careers panned out, those type of players on average cost the most in the transfer market. If you look at the best fullbacks in the league, players like Zabaleta, Azpilicueta, Sagna, Ivanovic, Evra, etc, they cost under 10m when the big clubs bought them. I know times change and fees get higher, but apart from Dani Alves, I can't remember any other fullback commanding those kind of fees.
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But not one of those fullbacks was as highly rated, or regarded as having the same sort of potential as Shaw does. Sagna and Evra hadn't played outside of the French league. Zabaleta has trained on massivlely since his early days in England. Azpilicueta has even been in and out of the team at Chelsea prior to this season - when he can't even get a game in his natural position - where he's been kept out by Ivanovic who didn't get a look in at Chelsea for the better part of a year after signing. There have been more expensive fullbacks, though, for example Bosingwa (£16m odd) and Zhirkov (£18m odd).
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You should eat more oily fish. Your memory is terrible. You can't even remember fullbacks from your own club. Fereirra cost you 13m and Bosingwa 16m.
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At that time that was a lot for fullbacks. I don't see the issue with the fee for Shaw, longterm he would be worth every penny of it, hopefully!
 
Bubz27 said:
The only problem I have with £100k/week is that when it comes to renegotiation time in 3 or 4 years, what do we give our 22 year old LB then? £120k/week? £140k/week? And then what about 3 or 4 years after that when he'll still only be 25/26, not even in his prime yet. Do we keep going until we have a LB on £200k/week?

I'd be surprised if there's many fullbacks in the world on £100k/week plus, if any at all. The one that comes to mind is Ashley Cole, we all know how he reacted to 'only' being offered £55k/week, the poor sod.

I don't have a problem with the fee for many reasons already discussed. To be honest 'problem' is the wrong word, it's more of a concern.
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In 2-3 years when our revenue is over £500m those kind of wages will be completely standard for a full back. A top quality left back on 200k a week in 10 years will be the going rate.

Bear in mind that 9 years ago one of the best strikers in the world in Shevchenko was signed to a £110k a week contract that everyone thought was crazy money. Less than a decade later and we are discussing the prospect of an 18 year old left back earning a similar figure.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if in 10 years a top class full back is earning Rooney money and top strikers are on £500-600k a week.
 
I really hope this is true. He is a class act and will only get better on a bigger stage. The money for me is not problem either. We really need to start flexing our muscles off the pitch because on it we are like a wet fart.

Whist we are at it i'd throw Cleverley and 10m at Everton for Coleman. I'm not too convinced about Rafael any more fitness or playing wise.
 
Would be happy to get him for that price really. I know fullbacks don't usually cost that much, but it's just how it is now.

Is it a risk to buy him at a young age and when we supposedly don't have a manager yet? Yes. Although, I'd assume that there have been discussions with van Gaal and we've told him that he was our number one LB target, so if we get him he is surely part of his plans.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
You're joking, right? He only seems to report the true stuff after everyone else has. His own "exclusives" last summer were;

Barcelona's Thiago Alcântara likely to join Manchester United
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/jul/06/thiago-alcantara-manchester-united-barcelona

Wayne Rooney heading for the exit at Manchester United
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/jul/16/wayne-rooney-angry-manchester-united

Also, note how none of his articles ever include quotes. In fact, all of his articles include unrelated stories just to fill up the required word count.
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Not joking, no. Obviously those two examples turned out to be incorrect. However, most of the reliable journalists said at the time and still maintain now that we were in for Alcantara. Regarding the Rooney example, his contract negotiations were such a long and drawn out process it did look likely he would leave.

Ogden is seen as being the most reliable with United related information, right?

Well here are two of his articles:

Manchester United close to signing Barcelona midfielder Thiago Alcantara in a deal worth £17 million
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ago-Alcantara-in-a-deal-worth-17-million.html

Manchester United believe Wayne Rooney is so key to their European hopes that they will risk losing him for nothing
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ted-risk-losing-Wayne-Rooney-for-nothing.html

Oh, look. He said the same things. My point is just because someone has previously said things that we now know not to be true does not mean there was not an element of truth in them at the time they were written.

I believe Ogden and Jackson, alongside others, to be the best journalists for United related information regardless of their previous mishaps.
 
antihenry said:
Torres and Sheva were considered world class strikers at that time. Regardless of how their careers panned out, those type of players on average cost the most in the transfer market. If you look at the best fullbacks in the league, players like Zabaleta, Azpilicueta, Sagna, Ivanovic, Evra, etc, they cost under 10m when the big clubs bought them. I know times change and fees get higher, but apart from Dani Alves, I can't remember any other fullback commanding those kind of fees.
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Coentrao

The reason Shaw is costing a lot is because he's had 2 seasons where he's been easily top 3 left backs in the premier league at the age of 18 and he has clear potential to grow a lot and develop to be even better than now. He's not a lot behind any of those players at a much younger age.
 
I don't see the price tag as a problem. If he's a Wayne or a Rio then it will turn out to be money well invested. Of course, that means he'd have to stick around for a good few years and make the LB position his own.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You should eat more oily fish. Your memory is terrible. You can't even remember fullbacks from your own club. Fereirra cost you 13m and Bosingwa 16m.
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You should check your eyesight. It said "If you look at the best fullbacks in the league", which Ferreira and Bosingwa obviously weren't. And 27m is a whole lot more than 13m or even 16m.
 
antihenry said:
Torres and Sheva were considered world class strikers at that time. Regardless of how their careers panned out, those type of players on average cost the most in the transfer market. If you look at the best fullbacks in the league, players like Zabaleta, Azpilicueta, Sagna, Ivanovic, Evra, etc, they cost under 10m when the big clubs bought them. I know times change and fees get higher, but apart from Dani Alves, I can't remember any other fullback commanding those kind of fees.
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None of them English, none of them proven in the Premier League, none of them as young as Shaw. Add £15m.

Rio is the obvious comparison. He went for £30m 12 years ago, back when no player other than Zidane had ever gone for more than £37m. So we'd be getting Shaw for a relatively much lower price despite him showing similar potential at a much younger age.

The wage concerns me slightly more, but I guess if we want him to become an instant default starter, then we have to pay him a starter's wage not a 'young prospect' wage.

antihenry said:
You should check your eyesight. It said "If you look at the best fullbacks in the league", which Ferreira and Bosingwa obviously weren't. And 27m is a whole lot more than 13m or even 16m.
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Because, again, Bosingwa and Ferreira were not as good/promising, not as young, not English, and not already proven in the PL (the latter being the real clincher, for me - you can't underestimate the value of having already seen the player perform against the same teams he'd be up against for us.)
 
I hope we wrap it up fast and set a precedent. United are getting the players they want this summer.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Liverpool fans reckon they are signing Moreno, worried he could be a much better deal.
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I've seen a few Liverpool fans on Twitter reckon they're signing Kroos, Diego Costa and Di Maria. And aren't Barca interested? If so there's no chance.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
You're joking, right? He only seems to report the true stuff after everyone else has. His own "exclusives" last summer were;

Barcelona's Thiago Alcântara likely to join Manchester United
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/jul/06/thiago-alcantara-manchester-united-barcelona

Wayne Rooney heading for the exit at Manchester United
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/jul/16/wayne-rooney-angry-manchester-united

Also, note how none of his articles ever include quotes. In fact, all of his articles include unrelated stories just to fill up the required word count.
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Jamie Jackson along with Daniel Taylor plainly both have a direct line from the Man United PR team. Quotes are irrelevance in the British Journo tradition.
 
The funny is that most of the Chelsea fans would love Luke Shaw and wouldn't care about his fee if they did get him.
 
Stretch said:
I don't see the price tag as a problem. If he's a Wayne or a Rio then it will turn out to be money well invested. Of course, that means he'd have to stick around for a good few years and make the LB position his own.
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Agreed. This kid isn't about to get any cheaper, anytime soon. Get it done.
 
Brightonian said:
None of them English, none of them proven in the Premier League, none of them as young as Shaw. Add £15m.

Rio is the obvious comparison. He went for £30m 12 years ago, back when no player other than Zidane had ever gone for more than £37m. So we'd be getting Shaw for a relatively much lower price despite him showing similar potential at a much younger age.

The wage concerns me slightly more, but I guess if we want him to become an instant default starter, then we have to pay him a starter's wage not a 'young prospect' wage.



Because, again, Bosingwa and Ferreira were not as good/promising, not as young, not English, and not already proven in the PL (the latter being the real clincher, for me - you can't underestimate the value of having already seen the player perform against the same teams he'd be up against for us.)
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Exactly. Football clubs are a business and run on budgets. So you budget your team accordingly. I.e our no.1 GK for the next however many years should cost 80k pw, our LB 80k pw, main goal scorers 250k pw... etc. This is what we are looking at, you are paying for services in a position. That is it.
 
KM said:
The personal terms are usually agreed before the official bid goes in.
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Interesting, I've always though first goes official bid, then moving to personal terms with players.

Really hope we sign this kid!
 
AltiUn said:
I've seen a few Liverpool fans on Twitter reckon they're signing Kroos, Diego Costa and Di Maria. And aren't Barca interested? If so there's no chance.
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They're simply delusional them lot! First top 4 finish in a few years and now think they have the pick of the bunch amongst the top players in European football :lol:, unless they were stating who they'd signed on fifa then that's fine. Moreno is a target for Real is he not? But seriously how will Liverpool fund such moves under FFP!?
 
Black Adder said:
Interesting, I've always though first goes official bid, then moving to personal terms with players.

Really hope we sign this kid!
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Well officially that is what happens but nobody wants to waste their time agreeing a fee with a club if the player has no interest in joining so 99% of the time when a bid is made the bidding club knows the player wishes to come.
 
pascell said:
They're simply delusional them lot! First top 4 finish in a few years and now think they have the pick of the bunch amongst the top players in European football :lol:, unless they were stating who they'd signed on fifa then that's fine. Moreno is a target for Real is he not? But seriously how will Liverpool fund such moves under FFP!?
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I don't think Moreno is completely unrealistic but if you're challenging with Madrid/Barca then you've got no chance :rolleyes: the others signings would be pointless really when they need a new CB and possibly RB/LB, when they've sorted out what they need to then they can go about signing Messi ;)
 
Black Adder said:
Interesting, I've always though first goes official bid, then moving to personal terms with players.

Really hope we sign this kid!
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They can't legally sign a contract until after the clubs have agreed a fee, so they haven't technically agreed anything before the bid is accepted.

What usually happens, though, is they have informal talks and thrash out what the sort of terms they are likely to accept would be.
 
Black Adder said:
Interesting, I've always though first goes official bid, then moving to personal terms with players.

Really hope we sign this kid!
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I think these days buying clubs first contact the players agent enquiring his availability and whether his club would be willing to sell and what kind of wages would they like for his client.
 
Those saying fullbacks don't "normally" cost that much.
I ask, if we don't get Shaw, what alternatives of the same calibre are there?

Coentrao aside because he seems surplus to requirements at Real Madrid (even then he'd probably cost half the £27m reported fee)

Assuming they were all available; the likes of Alaba, Baines, Marcelo, Alba & Lahm would cost more.
And the only one out of those who is premiership proven is 29 so we would be looking at 3/4 more years service.
After that, you're then looking at players who don't seem as though they will reach the level that those guys are on, the likes of Luis, Alex Sandro etc so it's hardly a giant pool to swim in.

Left backs are rare, period.
Left backs with great ability are even rarer.

Shaw is young, British, and proven in the premier league.
Yes it's a large amount to pay, but if we were to get him we won't have to revisit this topic for another decade, maybe longer.

Nobody looks at Rio Ferdinand now and thinks about the price we paid for him.

So yes in the past, you would think maybe 15m would be the top price you'd pay for a fullback, but times have changed.
 
Black Adder said:
Interesting, I've always though first goes official bid, then moving to personal terms with players.

Really hope we sign this kid!
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I think it depends on whether its a contentious bid or not. If the negotiations are friendly then the two clubs will be talking about potential fees and the selling club will permit the player to talk to the club before an official bid. Often the official bid is actually provisionally agreed by the time it goes in.
 
Although I would prefer Coentrao, I don't care that much about Shaw's fee as about his wages. Januzaj is reportedly on 30 k, most of our senior players are below 100 k, would be a bit strange if an 18 year old starts with 100 k, I hope it's more around 75 k what the Telegraph reported, sounds a bit better.

Anyway, we have a very good record when we have spent close to 30 mil on young English players (Rio, Rooney). Obviously not a large number to pick from, but as everyone knows there's a real lack of top class English talent, and with Rio gone and Rooney not the youngest and noone knows how long he'll stay anyway, we can't do much wrong with a very talented young English player. Good thing to always have England's/one of England's star players at United.
 
Let us hope he can deliver against Chelsea because Shaw even has a Chelsea tatoo which presumably wont go down well in the Utd dressing room
 
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