I suppose it depends on how you define unfit. I don't know anyone who thinks Shaw is unfit, nor Mount or VdB when he was here for that matter. They're all simply unlucky to have faced persistent injuries and the two who are still with us are worthy of our support when they return.
23
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 3
- Clean sheets
- 1
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 0
I suppose it depends on how you define unfit. I don't know anyone who thinks Shaw is unfit, nor Mount or VdB when he was here for that matter. They're all simply unlucky to have faced persistent injuries and the two who are still with us are worthy of our support when they return.
You don't think being unfit or heavier than you should be could lead to increased risk of
injuries?
Unfit relative to top level sports. Unfit relative to what's needed for 90mins of football at the top level.
Plenty of fans think Shaw has been lacking in conditioning at various points. As mentioned he's said it himself.
I thought lacking fitness/conditioning = being more prone to injury was such an obvious, objectively true opinion.
I swear if I said water is wet someone on this forum would find a way of disagreeing.
From experience it just effects the performance levels.
I see none of you have read "Woodwards big book of business basics". You have to protect your asset value at all costs. Even if that asset only has value to you.
Luke Shaw: ‘People can say I’m fat but I’ve never been out of shape’
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/26/luke-shaw-manchester-united-jose-mourinhoI ain't no doctor but surely strength, flexibility, stamina, diet and sleep will play a huge part when it comes to both injuries and recovery?
But of course luck and genetics matter too.
But of course luck and genetics matter too.
From your experience?
Obviously we're talking about top level sport here.
Being out of condition will definitely increase the chances of injury. Seriously how is this even debatable?
Why do you think players returning from injury are preferably eased back in rather than just immediately chucked back in to 2 games a week?
It really doesn't. Being heavier makes everything higher impact and from playing a lot of sport for my entire life and at reasonably high levels, you lose conditioning and fitness far faster than you lose the ability to perform at a high level. Your muscle memory and ability to do a lot of things remains and you can do many of the thing you could previously do, you just suffer for them through injuries.
This is part of the reason injury hit players do exercises to strengthen around joins, strengthen supporting muscles and fix imbalances. These all help to prevent injury and unless you are super super disciplined, a lack of playing time will result in your body losing that conditioning, stabilisation etc that helps stave off injury.
That's a subjective opinion though, which doesn't appear to be grounded in any metrics to substantiate it. People probably think Shaw is unfit because he's bigger boned or has a bigger body than most. That's not a very convincing way to look at his fitness because there's no way to measure it without access to the analytics and data that are collected by athlete vests, Vo2 max tests etc. One thing that's not in question is that when available, he's generally an effective player when evaluated against his teammates. Identical logic can be applied to Mount as well.
We've all watched football for years. We can see when a player is in top condition or not. We can also see Luke's appearance fluctuate over the years.
A dead giveaway is how often he pulls a player down rather than chasing back. That's a real sign of a player not having his conditioning right.
So being out of condition doesn't increase the chances of injury? I really don't know where to go or begin with that. I'm not sure you really believe it. It's just defending a player for the sake of it.
Wetting agents are a class of surfactants that lower the interfacial tension of a liquid.
Water has a high interfacial tension, thus having low wettability aka poor wetting agent.
A drop of water tends to “bead” on a hydrophobic surface, such as plastic.
I swear someone on this forum would find a way to argue, water may have poor wettability but it still is wet.
I did ask you to clarify what you meant by unfit. And said recovery from injury is a factor.From your experience?
Obviously we're talking about top level sport here.
Being out of condition will definitely increase the chances of injury. Seriously how is this even debatable?
Why do you think players returning from injury are preferably eased back in rather than just immediately chucked back in to 2 games a week?
And yes, it is top level sport, and Luke Shaw is a top level sportsman deemed fit to play by physios and doctors he doesn't just rock up with a pie and borrowed boots.
He doesn't need to be defended from random folk on the internet deciding he's to blame for his injuries.
Redcafe posters with no data v Man United and England medical teams with all the data ....hmmm
That's a bit of a stretch imo. If a player was actually unfit, the physios and manager simply wouldn't allow him to play and would instead recommend further training to get their fitness in order. The fact that every manager from Van Gaal to Hodgson to Southgate to Ten Hag have selected him over the past 11 years suggests the player clearly isn't out of shape. He's simply been injured for a better part of two years, just like Mount has. Both are very effective players when available.
Yeah, that all makes sense. Ageing and miles on the clock. Heavier is bigger, not necessarily unfit? In game fatigue is a huge factor too. Luke Shaw is not unfit to the level that we can blame him personally for being injured. The person I was debating had limited sympathy for the injuries because in some way it was the players fault.
LvG literally said he wasn't fit enough and put him on individual training. Luke publicly agreed.
There's being fit enough to get on the pitch and play. Then there's being at your very best condition.
Bud there's literally photographic evidence of Shaw fluctuating in weight over the years. Look at him before the leg break. Visibly in great shape. Then look at him at other times.
But if you don't think being heavy(relative to what a top athlete should be) contributes to increased risk of injury fair enough. Like I said, I don't know what to do with that.
It's called a different opinion. It happens. You don't have to do anything with it.
Back in 2014 when he was a teenager. Shaw later said he'd never been fat and had always been in shape after that.
seems the staff are very defensive for Luke. is it really absurd to suggest his physical condition couldn't have played a part? I think its nuts to not consider the possibility but each to their own. also is it absurd to think he might not be a model professional? is it really opinion or some weird biased agenda for Shaw? Mods appear to be getting the back up at any ill suggestions regarding Shaw. I think as fans we are right to feel aggrieved regarding his shape, application, determination when he is paid an elite wage and spends a year out for a muscle injury. maybe it is the ghosts of the past haunting him from his horrific break.
I've definitely noticed this as a trend with yourself.
I reckon on three occasions now, separate topics, just with myself, you've gone for the no data angle.
Do we need to have data on everything now to have a valid opinion? It's going to make conversation here tricky.
Weight is not the issue here imo. Shaw is listed at 165 pounds / 75kg / 11.75 stone which is well within the average range among professional footballers. Most footballers, except perhaps CR7, face random injuries across their careers. Lukaku is over 200lb and has managed a productive career for club and country. Harry Maguire is nearly 200lb (30+ pounds more than what Shaw is listed as) and has also managed a productive career. Most players simply get injured from time to time - some more than others - its part of the game, so Shaw's situation is no different than Mount's in this regard.
Yeah and it's fair to question whether he's kept himself in the best shape, obviously.
There is a big difference between something like a fracture or a concussion, which is purely down to bad luck, and muscle related injuries. And Shaw has missed roughly 120 games (!) in his career to the latter category alone. Plus an additional 8 to various illnesses and "unknown injuries" (whatever that is)
Injuries to tendons, ligaments and joints are more of a grey area. Here I would imagine that both luck/genetics and conditioning/fitness play a part.
I would also say that just because you start games it doesn't necessarily mean that you are super fit. I've seen plenty of games where Shaw looks lethargic (he's obviously not alone in this aspect though).
Injuries to tendons, ligaments and joints are more of a grey area. Here I would imagine that both luck/genetics and conditioning/fitness play a part.
I would also say that just because you start games it doesn't necessarily mean that you are super fit. I've seen plenty of games where Shaw looks lethargic (he's obviously not alone in this aspect though).
I didn't say your opinion wasn't valid. It's as valid as mine but I we don't have the means to make the call. Raoul said the exact same thing. But yes, in short I would always tend towards an expert with lots of information than some random person on the internet with very little. In any of our jobs we tend to go with what the informed people say rather than some bloke on the internet?
I think he's finished at United and Amorim is looking for a long term solution at left back. He's not someone he can rely on for an entire season. Whoever's genius idea to give an injury plagued player a four year contract in 2023 need their head examined. He needs to go as well along with many others. An absolute passenger most of the time.
Keep in mind I haven't said Luke has definitely caused his injuries by being out of shape. I've only said not being in top condition will increase the likelihood of being injured.
Who are these experts or informed people saying being out of condition has no bearing on likelihood of injury?
Moses be serious, nobody, layperson or expert, will ever really believe that. Good grief stop digging.
Please stop talking as if you are being reasonable. You aren’t. You are absolutely see-through.
You specifically said you had no sympathy for him, which is why I entered the conversation.
I'm talking about the medical staff who deemed him fit to play. They are the ones with the data both myself and Raoul referred to. If they say he's in shape to play then I'm going with them over your assertion that he isn't and is in danger of causing injuries.
There is no digging. So really you need to be less arrogant when someone disagrees with you. There's no need for your laughing green smilies or your exasperated " I don't know what to do with that" nonsense.
I doubt Shaw leaves now that he's nearing a return. The LB situation isn't a concern given Amorim's formation, and the fact that he just bought Dorgu. Shaw is due back in May, so I doubt he sees any playing time this year. We should see him on the summer tour and early next year imo.
If someone offered 10 million for him now you'd snap their hand off.
I think he's part of the rotating cast of CBs now. Nobody is buying him with his playing record. That contract, like so many others, is a killer for us.
I actually wouldn't. We have plenty of other players who are potentially leaving the club that we can use to fund new transfers. Rashford, Antony, (one of) Garnacho or Mainoo, Casemiro, Hojlund etc. That's before we get yet more money from the penalty Chelsea will have to pay for not taking Sancho, the possibility Greenwood is sold in the summer from which we get 50% sell on and beyond. So there's no reason for Shaw to leave, especially when one considers that squad depth is essential for a potential 60 fixture season across all comps.
Even if Shaw returns attains top fitness, and assuming we can't sell him, I'm not sure he's anything more than a squad man for us under Amorim's system. If/when we returns he surely has lost pace and I don't see him as a first choice left wingback or a left CB, given the choices we have available to us already. But feel no pity for him, apart from the horror Moreno criminal assault that wasn't even called a foul -- Shaw command's a king's ransom every week and is more than set for the rest of his life.
Get aggrieved by whatever you want, but seems odd to me to be getting so worked up about something you likely know very little about.
At least he's not on an absurd salary. 150k per week is pocket change for us in the grand scheme of things.
I'd say he's 2nd/3rd choice for LWB and 3rd choice for LCB, so even when he's fit he's not gonna get many minutes now. Perhaps that could be a motivation for him to leave earlier?
If I was him, yep, but he may be happy to play less as he ages. If he moves he gets a pay cut and may just get injured if he's expected to pay every week. Hard to call.
Since there is no classic LB in Amorim's system, i think he becomes either a left sided CB or LWB who can interchangably swap out with Dorgo or any of the CBs who ordinarily play on the left - we've seen Yoro, Heaven, and Martinez all play there, and lets not forget Licha is out until 2026. So plenty of opportunities to use Shaw situationally in any number of left side roles.
Yeah, that was a bit optimistic of me. Looking at his injury history he's either:
A) One of the most unlucky footballers of all time
B) Lazy and unlucky (leg break, concussions etc)
It doesn't really matter if the truth is A or B. In either case I'd be clinging to that sweet contract for as long as possible.
The best thing we can hope for is a Maguire-esque comeback story. Although Maguire never had the same injury problems...
Hardly, given loads of kids in the academies get career-ending injuries and others have so many bad ones they reach nowhere near their projected peak or retire early. Others have died on the pitch, so let's not exaggerate.
He's just a quality but sadly injury prone player, like Ledley King, Anderton, Hazard, van Basten, and loads of others. I don't get the need for these ridiculous extremes.