I don't think we can speak for Newcastle but there are bigger clubs making worse signings than Shaw all the time.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 47
- Clean sheets
- 21
- Goals
- 2
- Assists
- 7
- Yellow cards
- 11
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
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I don't think we can speak for Newcastle but there are bigger clubs making worse signings than Shaw all the time.
Yawn.
I don’t disagree.
It’s more about the risk of signing these fallen stars (Dele Alli is another that springs to mind).
Shaw wouldn’t be sold because he’s not talented enough. He’s one of the most talented players at the club and well ahead of all the other full backs on raw ability. If he can’t get into our team something is fundamentally wrong with him. You take a punt on those players but only when they are inexpensive and don’t demand high wages.
Rooney was finished when he was 29 , Shaw has similar build and possibly lazier than Rooney at keeping himself fit. It's not impossible he is already finished right nowYeah, Malacia is okay tehnically. AWB looks clumsy with the ball and watching him with it I always think he's going to fall over
On Shaw: I really loved watching him play in 2018-2021 period. Can he repeat it again I don't know, he's still just 27 so it's not like he's old or anything.
So does David De Gea but i am pretty sure majority of you couldn't wait to get rid of him.
Rooney had played 12 years at the top by that point, consistently being one of the best forwards in the world. There is no possibly about it, Shaw is far far lazier and has about 1 1/100th of Rooneys work rate and desire. Even when Rooney dropped off, you could never question his commitment.
With Shaw he's clearly talented, but also clearly lacks the mentality to be here. I don't want to harp on about Sir Alex but he would of moved Shaw on years ago. If we want to become a top club again, we need to be ruthless with Players that aren't up to it. Too many players have been here coasting for too many years, we've handed out some of the worst contracts ive ever seen. With Bailly leaving, Shaw being dropped and Jones out the dressing room i feel like Ten Hag is on the right track in weeding out the players that need to leave.
Yeah, it’s refreshing to have a manager with two working eyes.
That is true. Well he'll have his chances over the season to prove us wrong anyways.
I will give chance for players like VdB, Telles to prove us wrong. Not Luke Shaw , he is well overdue
Look I don't rate him. These threads meander
What does assists 85% mean? Is it a game of top trumps? 85% of what?
Goal creating actions>? 87% of what?
This list could be taken in the context of one game!
Whats the source?
What does assists 85% mean? Is it a game of top trumps? 85% of what?
Goal creating actions>? 87% of what?
This list could be taken in the context of one game!
Whats the source?
People said the same for Rashford and Martial. Point is we don't know as we're not the ones watching them train every day.
It's a percentile. It means he's better than 84% of full backs in the top 5 leagues in Europe at that particular stat. Fbref is the source.
It's a good way to compare him against other full backs
So you'll give players that don't have the skill to actually be good enough a chance, but not players who actually do have the ability? That doesn't make sense to me and is the exact opposite of where I stand. The former players simply aren't good enough, and there is no chance of that changing. Whereas there is a chance that players who have the necessary skill (like Shaw) might come good with better management and system around them. It may not even be a big chance, but at least it's a possibility.
Our management, coaching and game-style has been atrocious over almost the entire time that Shaw has been here. This is the first time since LVG (and even that was debatable) that we hopefully will have a proper system and a coaching team that develops players. If we're going to give any players a chance to see if they kick on with this new management, I'd rather it be the ones who might end up being good enough. Rashford and Martial are the other two obvious candidates with that. At the end of the day all three might fail, but I'd rather that then giving those chances to the likes of Telles, VDB, Dan James, etc.
You can have all the proper system and coaching teams but without the right attitude , personalities and mentality all those system are meaningless, manager like Pep or Klopp would have gotten rid of Luke Shaw after looking at his belly. Mourinho would have done it if the club listened to him and I believe it's just matter of time before Ten Hag finally does it.
You can coach ,develop abilities of the players as long as they have enough talent and attitude which is why i rather give the chance to VdB and Telles ( i don't believe Ten Hag didn't rate VdB , he was his player back then while Telles was G/A machine at his previous club ). A top manager don't need world class player at every position to win a competition, but they do need players with the right attitude and mentality.
They don't need to be world class, but they certainly need to be 'good enough'. Telles certainly isn't, and as bad as Shaw was last season (in probably his worst ever season) Telles was probably even worse. His combination of poor positioning and almost non-existent pace and athleticism meant he was constantly found out defensively, and on the ball he basically does nothing but put in random crosses every time that almost never find someone. There's a reason that the one time Shaw managed to get fit under Ralf he quickly established himself as first choice again, but unfortunately got injured again. VDB is basically the same, except an argument can be had that he hasn't really had a run of games to play himself into form. Of course there's a reason he hasn't had a run of games...
I'd say someone like Malacia is a better example of what you're talking about. So far he hasn't shown to have anywhere near the level of a top-form Luke Shaw, but he's solid enough with a lot of intensity that he could easily end up being the better player for us.
Your first sentence is largely correct, but it also does go the other way as well. Having as bad a management and coaching set-up as we've had for such a long period of time plays it's part in the deterioration of confidence and mentality of the entire dressing room. There is a reason why so many of our players seem to get worse and worse as time goes on. In fact I'd say that literally every single player in the squad has shown no development over the Jose and Ole years, bar the odd golden patch here and there before they quickly fall away again. The closest thing to player development I can think of is Rashford becoming more of a goal scorer, but basically every other aspect of his game has deteriorated in the meantime.
Don't get me wrong, Shaw's start to this season (not necessarily the poor form; more the lack of intensity) means I feel he's unlikely to step back up to the level we need. But he's one of the few we have who actually have the ability to be one of the best in the world, so I'd prefer to see him given that opportunity than somebody who will never be good enough. If he hasn't shown anything by the end of this season though then by all means it'll be time to move him on.
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Percentile is his rating compared to other full backs. Looks like it's from Fbref to me - I took a quick look.
These stats were clearly cherry picked to try and paint him in a better light.
Other attacking actions -
Dribbles Completed - 33%
Touches (Att pen area) - 21%
Progressive pass rec - 36%
Defensive actions
Pressures - 29%
Tackles - 14%
Interceptions - 4%
Blocks - 89%
Clearances - 23%
Aerial Duels - 69%
https://fbref.com/en/players/9c94165b/Luke-Shaw
There are players , some world class players, ballon d'or winner at Chelsea, Inter , Madrid , even at Spurs and Roma. Who would swear for their life that Jose Mourinho did develop and turn them into better players. if he failed here that's mainly due to the players themselves ( dele alli for example ). The players who felt they weren't developed under Mourinho hasn't touch any winners medal anymore since he left. You don't say you are now a better player while at the same time winning nothing that's absolute bollocks , luke shaw included. If there is a bet whether Luke Shaw can still win anything for the rest of his career most of you without a doubt would have bet against it. The sooner we get rid of these losers , the better. I do think the likes of Rashford and Martial are also well overdue , ask yourself whether any big club across Europe would have kept them in after so many years of underperforming and underachieving , they are big club because they are ruthless to underperforming players. We are probably the only big club who rewards underachievers with new contract and payrise , then wonder why we are trophyless. Even regular companies around the world get rid of their employees quickly if they underperform.
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When individual employees fail, it's on them. When every single employee at a company fails, it's on the management. That's what we've seen here over the last six years. Thinking that the management is doing the right thing and have just been unlucky enough that every single player in the squad not only doesn't improve, but in the majority of cases end up declining, is being quite blind. Also bear in mind I'm not blaming just Mourinho and Ole, it's very much on their coaching staff as well.
We had a bunch of young talented players, but we basically wasted that entire group with terrible managerial and coaching set-ups. They are now in their mid and late 20's with huge question marks over whether it's now too late for them. When literally every single player at the club fails and declines, it's ridiculous to blame each individual player. Ultimately when it's such a consistent trend it comes back on the management team. That's not so say that the players are innocent, they certainly have to take some blame as well, but they've effectively been set up to fail by the incompetence above them.
I’m not quite sure about this. I sort of agree that there were times when the players didn’t get the best help. However, I’m not sure the players are or were as talented as you suggest.
Over the last few years we’ve had a mixed group in terms of quality. Some decent but not elite, some promising but not proven, some former superstars in their twighlight, some simply below the quality needed at our club.
Some of the players had very good spells of form under Mourinho and Ole and a lot of them looked like what they were - not quite good enough.
The only period where nearly all of them were poor is last season. There were several factors in that:
1. English players came back from the Euros in poor mental and physical condition.
2. New signings came in that didn’t address the main weaknesses in the team and caused some disruption.
3. There was an attempt to change the playing style which didn’t suit the qualities of the squad.
4. There was a change in manager to a guy who was not used to day-to-day management.
5. Some key players had personal issues that affected them over that period.
Probably more complicated than that but I would suggest it was a bit of a confluence of issues that dragged them all down together. I’m struggling to think of players who were particularly talented and have been irreparably spoiled by the coaching over a long period but I do think Ole, especially, played some players into exhaustion which probably set them back a bit.
So, yeah, I kind of agree that there were coaching issues, and some recruitment and strategic mistakes but I also think the quality in some positions was just not there. On the other hand, I’d say don’t give up on those you feel have fallen back: if they ever really had what it takes, it’s probably not too late for them.
He looks very lean in the latest training pictures.
He does. Just a hunch but I think he’ll step up.
I'd say the four obvious ones to me are Shaw, Rashford, Martial and Pogba. They were the four who had the potential to truly get to the very top and would show it in periods here and there, but none of them ever really built on it. Six years of the most important part of their career (the period where players normally step up from being talented youngsters to being consistent and reaching their peak) were spent under Mourinho and Ole (and to a lesser extent Rangnick who couldn't get any decent coaches in with him). Greenwood looked like he was following the same path as well, with worrying signs over his last 12-18 months that he was already stagnating (before throwing it all away by being a feckwit). Sancho probably would also have been another one as he really wasn't suited to our individualistic playstyle due to the utter lack of a proper system, but hopefully he can turn it around now with ETH.
Many others may not have had the same level of ability or potential as the above players, but they also didn't come close to reaching the level that should have been expected. Even somebody like McTominay who I've often criticised had periods where he did step up and show some good ability, but he's still pretty much the exact same player he was when he first broke into the team. There are some promising signs again, but we'll see how he goes. AWB obviously had a hard limit on how good he actually could be, but he (like many others) not only didn't improve but actually went backwards. De Gea didn't just get worse with his shot-stopping and mistakes, he also got worse at developing the rest of his game like claiming crosses and his distribution. Bruno got worse and worse the longer he was here. And so on and so on.
The other thing that a lot of people seem to forget is that the manager and coaching staff aren't just supposed to develop the player's skills and physicality. They are also supposed to develop their mentality and understanding of the game. Ferguson was a master of that. Mourinho used to be good at doing it with established players (he's never been good with youngsters), but he's never been the same since it went wrong at Real. Neither he nor Ole showed any ability to do it here.
Obviously not all players will develop as we want, but we had a systematic failure throughout the entire squad.
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Great post
We’ve had three managers the last year. The situation has generally been pretty chaotic and uncertain, and I suppose players (as different individuals) have responded differently to that. Shaw seems like a player who needs a lot of trust and stability in order to perform (man management). He got a boost when Mourinho was gone and fell apart when the atmosphere changed last season.
Shaw was a incredible player for us in 20/21, and if he gets back to that level, he definitely is on a higher level than Malacia.
If I not remember wrong most people have written him of before, when he struggled with injury and confidence. He returned and was one of the best LBs in PL (maybe the best). I’m not surprised if he prove his critiques wrong one more time.
The dilemma is that Shaw seems to need playing-time in order to get match fit and gain confidence again. Almost like we have to accept that our second choice is playing a month, before it turns around and he becomes a key player. I’m not sure if ETH and most people are patient enough for that to happen, so maybe his comeback is more likely if he goes to another club.
Yeah, it’s certainly one conclusion to draw and who’s to say it’s wrong. I’m not quite sure about the players you’ve mentioned and the level of cause and effect.
Pogba was pretty much fully realised and I don’t think coaching was uppermost in deciding his fate.
Rashford has had chronic injuries and was played into the ground. Better coaching would have helped him, I’m sure, but his physical condition was the main problem. He can still develop a lot, if fit.
Shaw, well I’ve banged on about him quite a bit but he improved greatly under Ole. He plays bad sometimes and had a poor season last year through fitness and application issues. You could argue he hasn’t had the mental coaching he needs but I think he was the main victim of all the other factors I mentioned last year.
Martial is a good shout. He looked a very exciting talent and did well when Ole came but his form really dived didn’t it? He did have injury problems as well but he looked fully lost over the last couple of years. He has some lost time to make up for but if he stays fit he could catch up to his projected development curve. I hope so.
Greenwood - I think he was doing fine.
Sancho - suffered from the carnage of last season, still young, not worried about him.
As I say, I sort of agree with you but I think my perspective is that there hasn’t been a massive waste of talent exactly. On the other hand I agree coaching must be a part of why some of the more promising guys haven’t done better. I think if we can keep these guys fit, ETH can get them back on track.
And we moan that our club is not good enough at moving players on, when fans themselves keep come up with a bunch of "what if" scenarios and bad manager excuses for players who have shown 1.5 decent seasons in 8 seasons.
You guys need better investigative skills. Poster goes by the name orcafat, comes on campaigning justice for Shaw. Luke, you fat nonsense, this is Erik. I better not catch you in carrington tomorrow. Clear your locker. Nobody listen to him, we found out this guy had all the canteen staff on payroll.
One world-class season. I'm not saying it's enough but it doesn't help your argument to understate how good his good season(s) were, it weakens it.
Too late for him. We have seen enough of the same shit over the years. He is fooling no one.
This is funny! I don’t fully understand it but I get the general sentiment. I am Luke Shaw? Or I run the canteen? Funny anyway.
Have you seen the latest photos? Possibly photo-shopped but he looks vaguely the correct build for a footballer.
If that's what you consider as world class season then i could say Lukaku first season for us was also world class as well, he scored 26 goals all competition and we finished 2nd. Yet we still got rid of him after 2 seasons and they said british bias isn't real.
Hardly. Lukaku was quite good in the first half of that season, but nowhere near the best in the world. Then he fell away and finished the season in some rough form.
Whereas Shaw's form was good enough all season that he would have been amongst the best in his position in the world, and the fact that the other three or four leftbacks who would normally have been in the reckoning for that title all had off-form seasons meant that Shaw ended up being the best. Hence the use of 'world class' when talking about him, and not using it when talking about Lukaku. You've got to be at least in the discussion about being the best in your position.
We conceded 44 goals in Luke Shaw world class seasons , some stats could prove most of the goal conceded came from his side. Without his PR team hyping him up at that season , no one would even put him as top 10 LB. We had BS writing about how he prove Mourinho wrong , even when he ends with 0 winner medal, at the same time , Ben Chillwell help Chelsea in winning their UCL. I think majority of people just fall into his PR hype including you, Ashley Young had better season than him when we finished second, 81 points.
Lukaku makes all the football go through him and him alone.
If you can’t see that then I’m not sure you understand football.
And I hope British bias continues and causes you to feel unsettled
A striker being focal point of a team attack must be a strange concept for you. He had world class season if we use the same standard you guys used for luke shaw 20/21 that's without a doubt
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Lukaku makes all the football go through him and him alone.
If you can’t see that then I’m not sure you understand football.
And I hope British bias continues and causes you to feel unsettled
This is a OMG…a British clubI agree. I hope we drop Varane or Martinez, Malacia and dalot and start with a back line of Maguire, AWB, Shaw again. I hope we also sack ten hag and bring back Moyes. Atleast you will be happy.Lukaku makes all the football go through him and him alone.
If you can’t see that then I’m not sure you understand football.
And I hope British bias continues and causes you to feel unsettled
I agree with most of what you said about Shaw, but I just can't accept the term World Class being associated with Shaw, he had an amazing season in 2020/2021 which culminated in an excellent performance in Euro 2020, he was in the form of his life and that made him among the best performing LBs in Europe for that season/period.
However, the saying goes "Form is Temporary, Class is Permanent", so the World Class term does not apply to Shaw sadly as he is not consistent through out his career, maybe "World Form" in 2020/2021? not World Class though.
My hope is that Shaw captures 75% of that great form, it would be huge for the team, but that is me just hoping though.
I mean sure - Shaw was scoring in Euro finals and stuff but ah well - Lukaku is world class when the whole team goes through him with minimal of anyone else performing because he can’t get the best out of another team mate.
Let’s also forget Lukaku’s 5th season at Chelsea or something.
Shaw may not be world class - but he has an anomaly of a world class season.
Not only was he good - but during that season no other LB was killing it the way Shaw was doing so for us. He was one of the best for that season.
Fixed it
A move in the summer would benefit both the player and the club, it’s not been good enough.
Too casual, never a United player.
Casemiro can take his VIP place in the cantina next season.
Too casual, never a United player.
Casemiro can take his VIP place in the cantina next season.
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