[Womp]

He didn't burst onto the scene and then struggle. He had pretty much two full seasons of consistently good performances as an 18 year old defender.

You can't do that if you don't have an understanding of the game.

Before Mourinho's comments last night did you ever complain about Shaw's brain, his ability to understand the game?

Once again, understanding of the game for a mid table team, and for an elite team is a completely different ball game. They have the freedom to allow him to play through his mistakes etc, we can't allow that. Our aim is to win things, not to nurse players through them learning their trade. Why I'm such a big advocate of sending out more players on loan. Also you're using that as proof he's got good football intelligence, but he's human, how can you genuinely suggest that he may not have regressed in regards to his football intelligence? He's hardly played football.

Furthermore, Nani was playing for Sporting at 18, he played for United for years and his football intelligence was always shit. Just because a player features for teams with less expectation, doesn't mean they're intelligent or ready for a step up. Four good performances from Shaw against mostly mediocre opposition in 4 years doesn't change that in my books.

Also no, cause I don't give a feck about a player's intelligence, that's not for me to evaluate. That's the manager's job. All I do know is, he has barely featured for us since joining, he has regressed as a footballer, he lives with his mates in a party house and it's been well documented that he can be unprofessional at times. Literally everything else is hypothetical.

All this being said, I agreed with Jose's treatment of Shaw a few days ago, coming out in public and giving him a kick up the arse, but think his comments after the Everton game were a bit overboard. Even if Jose was walking him through what to do on the pitch (which seems to be the truth having watched the match), he could have kept shut about it. But the bloke did ask Jose if this was Shaw's chance to finally get back in the team and he gave him a proper answer as to why he didn't think he was ready.

 

[dichinero]

Before Mourinho's comments last night did you ever complain about Shaw's brain, his ability to understand the game?

Like most things before José's post match rants. Up until this season, I never seen the words "weak mentality" used so much.

 

[Dobbs]

Once again, understanding of the game for a mid table team, and for an elite team is a completely different ball game. They have the freedom to allow him to play through his mistakes etc, we can't allow that. Our aim is to win things, not to nurse players through them learning their trade. Why I'm such a big advocate of sending out more players on loan. Also you're using that as proof he's got good football intelligence, but he's human, how can you genuinely suggest that he may not have regressed in regards to his football intelligence? He's hardly played football.

Furthermore, Nani was playing for Sporting at 18, he played for United for years and his football intelligence was always shit. Just because a player features for teams with less expectation, doesn't mean they're intelligent or ready for a step up. Four good performances from Shaw against mostly mediocre opposition in 4 years doesn't change that in my books.

Also no, cause I don't give a feck about a player's intelligence, that's not for me to evaluate. That's the manager's job. All I do know is, he has barely featured for us since joining, he has regressed as a footballer, he lives with his mates in a party house and it's been well documented that he can be unprofessional at times. Literally everything else is hypothetical.

All this being said, I agreed with Jose's treatment of Shaw a few days ago, coming out in public and giving him a kick up the arse, but think his comments after the Everton game were a bit overboard. Even if Jose was walking him through what to do on the pitch (which seems to be the truth having watched the match), he could have kept shut about it. But the bloke did ask Jose if this was Shaw's chance to finally get back in the team and he gave him a proper answer as to why he didn't think he was ready.

Nonsense, when to close down, when to hold your position, where to stand, when to overlap the basics are the same whoever you play for. He was doing all these things well before Jose arrived.

Here's what happens. A player struggles. Mourinho comes out with a public criticism. Fans immediately decide that criticism is true, despite the fact five mins before the thought had never crossed their mind.

That's exactly what you've done here. You've never even considered Shaw's intelligence according to the above but now Mourinho has mentioned it you're fully behind that opinion.

 

[Catt]

The way he spoke about Shaw makes me believe that he thinks Luke is autistic.

Something I wanted to comment on but didn't want to get a warning about.

 

[Womp]

Nonsense, when to close down, when to hold your position, where to stand, when to overlap the basics are the same whoever you play for. He was doing all these things well before Jose arrived.

Here's what happens. A player struggles. Mourinho comes out with a public criticism. Fans immediately decide that criticism is true, despite the fact five mins before the thought had never crossed their mind.

That's exactly what you've done here. You've never even considered Shaw's intelligence according to the above but now Mourinho has mentioned it you're fully behind that opinion.

How the feck is it the same everywhere considering not every club plays the same style of football. That's such a basic thought process. Some managers adopt zonal marking, some player marking, some managers prefer Fullbacks to be more attack orientated, some expect them to sit back and defend. Some managers expect their fullbacks to provide width, some would prefer an extra body in midfield (Pep). Not all fullbacks are the same and to suggest they all have similar play-styles is wrong. Darmian could never look smart trying to be Dani Alves. Besides, for arguments sake, assuming that the basics were all the same, you need more than the basics to be a starter for this club.

I haven't decided that criticism is true based on Jose's words, I don't give a feck whether or not those words are true is the point. I couldn't give a toss if he stayed and Jose screamed instructions at him for the rest of his career. That doesn't deflect from the fact though that he isn't intelligent enough to adapt his game to what Jose expects. Whether some people on here want to believe it or not, Shaw has never been the best going forward, great defensively, but has hardly ever been an impact in the attacking third. Who's to say that isn't what Jose meant when he said he didn't understand? Given Jose's liking to Valencia and our lack of width, what if Jose doesn't appreciate the fact that Shaw offers very little going forward and that every time he got on the ball in the Everton game he was coming into the middle of the field instead of providing width? Claiming Jose is just picking on him with literally nothing to go off except some statements he's made is jumping the gun imo.

You claim I'm lapping up everything Jose is feeding me, when in reality, I'm just not infatuated by a player who hasn't done shit for us. Whether or not he stays or goes doesn't bother me. Would I like it if he managed a career here? Sure, that'd be great, but it's down to him to adapt his game to the manager's needs, as would be the case anywhere. Fullbacks are an essential part of today's game, if he can't adapt his game, he can go to another club and be world class there or something.

 

[SirAF]

Something I wanted to comment on but didn't want to get a warning about.

 

[AgentP]

The reporter asked him a simple question about Shaw's 10 minute cameo. Jose could have just said that he played OK but still has a lot to work on. What was the need for the rant, I don't understand. So what if Jose was in fact telling Shaw what to do everytime he had the ball, he didn't have to tell the reporter that. Jose criticizing Shaw a few days back could be justified as trying to get him to clean up his act. This one just seems pointless.

 

[Catt]

Laugh all you want but this isn't a discussion worth having.

 

[Catt]

The reporter asked him a simple question about Shaw's 10 minute cameo. Jose could have just said that he played OK but still has a lot to work on. What was the need for the rant, I don't understand. So what if Jose was in fact telling Shaw what to do everytime he had the ball, he didn't have to tell the reporter that. Jose criticizing Shaw a few days back could be justified as trying to get him to clean up his act. This one just seems pointless.

It wasn't really a rant as he was cool, calm and collected during his post match comments.

 

[Seveneric]

Nonsense, when to close down, when to hold your position, where to stand, when to overlap the basics are the same whoever you play for. He was doing all these things well before Jose arrived.

Here's what happens. A player struggles. Mourinho comes out with a public criticism. Fans immediately decide that criticism is true, despite the fact five mins before the thought had never crossed their mind.

That's exactly what you've done here. You've never even considered Shaw's intelligence according to the above but now Mourinho has mentioned it you're fully behind that opinion.

So true. The praise Shaw received on here in his first season was overwhelming, people praising him that he was almost worldclass and had very little flaws in his game. Even the little criique he received was on his tiny defensive lapses. It's now surprising to see posts saying "he wasn't that fine in his first season", "only played well for 6 weeks", and criticising his "footballing brain" when there was barely any of that before Mourinho mentioned it.

Head in ass syndrome.

 

[SirAF]

Laugh all you want but this isn't a discussion worth having.

He's obviously not autistic, but he definitely doesn't seem like the sharpest lad.

 

[Zoo]

Mourinho also said that Shaw has good potential and can have a big future at United but that gets ignored because people act like this is a soap opera. It looks like he's giving him the Joe Cole treatment and Shaw needs to respond.

 

[Sepukku]

His shot in the dying minutes saved our asses. And it would have been a goal had it not been a penalty, so a big plus for him. But apart from that he did nothing, i mean virtually nothing. His first touch of the ball was a potential threat on the flank finished with a pass to the enemy in their area. His second was a long-ball to nobody. And i can go on...but that's not the point.

It is a good start, and the momentum - with Mourinho criticizing him and most of the people including the press loosing faith - might be just what he needs to turn things around but it's all down to one thing : he must start to shine. I don't believe he has that ability but i would be very happy if he'd prove me wrong.

 

[SirAF]

Mourinho also said that Shaw has good potential and can have a big future at United but that gets ignored because people act like this is a soap opera. It looks like he's giving him the Joe Cole treatment and Shaw needs to respond.

This.

 

[SkeppyRed]

Mourinho also said that Shaw has good potential and can have a big future at United but that gets ignored because people act like this is a soap opera. It looks like he's giving him the Joe Cole treatment and Shaw needs to respond.

Exactly. No controversy to reel in the idiots by focusing on that statement though.

 

[red_john]

It was all truth in Jose's interview. Shaw did play better because of the comments made. He did make more runs up the pitch because Jose was on the touchline telling him too. If Shaw does this at every opportunity then he will soon become favorable. Mourinho takes no prisoners when it comes to effort and commitment.

 

[Robertd0803]

It was all truth in Jose's interview. Shaw did play better because of the comments made. He did make more runs up the pitch because Jose was on the touchline telling him too. If Shaw does this at every opportunity then he will soon become favorable. Mourinho takes no prisoners when it comes to effort and commitment.

Great points.

 

[Catt]

He's obviously not autistic, but he definitely doesn't seem like the sharpest lad.

Agreed.

 

[RedMaestro]

Don't know if I remember wrong, but didn't Shaw look slower than usual? If so, why?

 

[Catt]

Don't know if I remember wrong, but didn't he look slower than usual? If so, why?

Who? If you mean Shaw then yes, but he's hardly played so that might be why.

 

[ghagua]

Nonsense, when to close down, when to hold your position, where to stand, when to overlap the basics are the same whoever you play for. He was doing all these things well before Jose arrived.

Here's what happens. A player struggles. Mourinho comes out with a public criticism. Fans immediately decide that criticism is true, despite the fact five mins before the thought had never crossed their mind.

That's exactly what you've done here. You've never even considered Shaw's intelligence according to the above but now Mourinho has mentioned it you're fully behind that opinion.

Absolutely right. Mourinho also questioned his professionalism, and next game not only is he in the squad, but he gets on the pitch to play.

 

[RedMaestro]

Who? If you mean Shaw then yes, but he's hardly played so that might be why.

Yes, Shaw. Thought I didn't need to write his name since it's his thread. I'll write his name now, to avoid confusion.
Maybe you're right.

 

[Ole90+3]

It could have just been me but Shaw looked knackered after 5 minutes last night, half jogging up the line, not carrying the ball when he had acres of space in front of him.

He made a few good runs forward after he came on but either he was told to stay back and put long balls into the box, or he is unfathomably unfit.

 

[Catt]

Yes, Shaw. Thought I didn't need to write his name since it's his thread. I'll write his name now, to avoid confusion.
Maybe you're right.

Sorry, I realised that as I posted. Doing a few things at the same time here (work & the Caf)

I think Shaw has to play a lot of football to get up to speed.

 

[pascell]

I fully trust Jose and his treatment with Shaw. There was some good moments last night from Shaw but some not so good also, but what can you expect from someone who's barely played and thrown on instantly due to injury?

Jose knows the weaknesses in Shaws game and is trying his best to improve them but there's only so much he can do, the rest is up to Shaw and that's the point Jose is making.

Jose has had some fantastic LBs play for him ie Cole, Luis and Marcelo and he knows how to get the best out of them and how good they could be, the same applies for Shaw here. If Luke listens to Jose and knuckles down, we'll soon see an improvement but it's up to Luke now if he wants his future to be at United or not.

 

[RedMaestro]

Sorry, I realised that as I posted. Doing a few things at the same time here (work & the Caf)

I think Shaw has to play a lot of football to get up to speed.

No worries, it was still my fault. I'm doing a few things at the same time as well. Tried to write as little as possible.
Perhaps, but will he be able to do that in this club? I get the feeling that Mourinho will let him play a bit and then sell him in the summer. I'd be really surprised if all of this with Shaw will result in something positive and then seeing him as a starter next season.

 

[Raw]

Jose has had some fantastic LBs play for him ie Cole, Luis and Marcelo and he knows how to get the best out of them and how good they could be, the same applies for Shaw here. If Luke listens to Jose and knuckles down, we'll soon see an improvement but it's up to Luke now if he wants his future to be at United or not.

Luis? Really? He bought him, barely played him in the league and sold him back the season after.

 

[Catt]

No worries, it was still my fault. I'm doing a few things at the same time as well. Tried to write as little as possible.
Perhaps, but will he be able to do that in this club? I get the feeling that Mourinho will let him play a bit and then sell him in the summer. I'd be really surprised if all of this with Shaw will result in something positive and then seeing him as a starter next season.

Your guess is as good as mine. I'd hope he gets a chance also next season.

 

[M Bison]

He's better than our other options so deserves a go. No way in hell Blind, Darmian or Young should be ahead of him. I dont care about his football intelligence, we're not much better than Southampton were when he played for them so if he was good enough for them then, he's good enough for us now.

 

[pascell]

Luis? Really? He bought him, barely played him in the league and sold him back the season after.

I'd still say Filipe Luis is a fantastic player, yeah. I'd say Luis was more a Abramovich signing than a Jose signing.

Also, South Americans tend to take at least more than one season to settle fully in the PL. He was also bought at a time Jose wanted instant results so he chose Azpilicueta who was already settle in the team over Luis, and it paid dividends as Chelsea won the league that season.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I'd still say Filipe Luis is a fantastic player, yeah. I'd say Luis was more a Abramovich signing than a Jose signing.

Also, South Americans tend to take at least more than one season to settle fully in the PL. He was also bought at a time Jose wanted instant results so he chose Azpilicueta who was already settle in the team over Luis, and it paid dividends as Chelsea won the league that season.

When Luis was signed I think people expected him to be the LB so Azpi can move to RB. Which probably would have been better in the long since Ivanovic was escorting wingers to the goal the next season.

 

[Kag]

It was all truth in Jose's interview. Shaw did play better because of the comments made. He did make more runs up the pitch because Jose was on the touchline telling him too. If Shaw does this at every opportunity then he will soon become favorable. Mourinho takes no prisoners when it comes to effort and commitment.

I didn't realise we had Caf members privy to the touchline.

@Dobbs is spot on in here. Half of these criticisms directed at Shaw (and others) have never even been noted prior to Mourinho's suggestion otherwise. Suddenly, it's a well worn problem. The fitness, I can accept. More than one manager has acknowledged this and Shaw needs to do more, clearly. But his game intelligence? I'm not having that. His defensive positioning has been a strength of Shaw's since he burst through at 16. You don't play professional football at that age unless you're incredibly impressive in most aspects of the game. Even moreso for defenders. At Southampton he was excellent. Under Van Gaal he displayed lots of intelligence - both offensively and defensively - in a short space of time. Yet Mourinho can waltz in, start chatting shite in yet another pathetic post match interview, and suddenly it's gospel? Nah, not for me.

 

[Dinghy]

Another drama queen.

We have too many snowflakes on the Caf these days.

Indeed. Crying because someone criticizes our manager is much better.

 

[ti vu]

Shaw was playing consistent EPL football at 18, way before he had José telling when to run. Don't fall for Mourinho's nonsense.

Midtable stable team vs teams trying to get back to high standard, with no backbone to to carry younger ones. Different circumstances. Shaw is now one of the most expensive defender in the world, so it's different expectation

 

[Footyislife]

If Mourinho can positively coach him through half an hour on the pitch, what has the Mouron been doing in training?

I feel he was hoping Shaw would crumble and vindicate his brutal treatment of him, and resorted to personally taking the credit for a decent effort from Luke.

Mourinho hasn't aged well, neither physically or as a coach. The likes of Conte and Pocchettino, with their intense humility, desire to develop individuals and perfect balance between defensive solidarity and a destructive attack.

Exactly; even the excessively maligned LVG got the best out of Rashford, Martial and pre-injury Shaw. Lingard eluded to the more youth-friendly environment last week. Those three offer United more over the next decade than Jose.

Evaluating that, there's a good chance even Pogba would be performing better under Louise than the Portuguese bore.

LVG has always been great at understanding different player personalities. His failures had more to do with his dinosaur like tactics that he failed to evolve. Mourinho on the other hand is a poor man manager and his teams implode in about 3 years. His best quality is providing a clear vision to his team and executing that vision well. He's a specialist at negating opponents. Unfortunately, I don't think he has a vision to build the club into an attacking force that develops young talent. And his implosion has already started. We all know where this is headed. Players are going to be tired of getting thrown under the bus by him and he's going to lose their confidence. Negativity just isn't going to motivate Millennials and Gen Z's. If Mourinho can't learn this, i think his days as a top manager are numbered.

 

[Hed Zitin]

Aside from those 6 weeks before injury against PSV, he hasn't really been playing that well for us. He was fine but nothing special in his first season and has been rather average since the injury. Those 6 weeks before PSV, he looked like our best player and potentially ready to make a step up to borderline world class level soon.

This. He's done barely feck all to deserve any of these outrage over him. Shaw has been a complete flop at this club.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Midtable stable team vs teams trying to get back to high standard, with no backbone to to carry younger ones. Different circumstances. Shaw is now one of the most expensive defender in the world, so it's different expectation

We are going to have to drop this "much higher standards" stuff until we stop getting mid table type results.

 

[POF]

I didn't realise we had Caf members privy to the touchline.

@Dobbs is spot on in here. Half of these criticisms directed at Shaw (and others) have never even been noted prior to Mourinho's suggestion otherwise. Suddenly, it's a well worn problem. The fitness, I can accept. More than one manager has acknowledged this and Shaw needs to do more, clearly. But his game intelligence? I'm not having that. His defensive positioning has been a strength of Shaw's since he burst through at 16. You don't play professional football at that age unless you're incredibly impressive in most aspects of the game. Even moreso for defenders. At Southampton he was excellent. Under Van Gaal he displayed lots of intelligence - both offensively and defensively - in a short space of time. Yet Mourinho can waltz in, start chatting shite in yet another pathetic post match interview, and suddenly it's gospel? Nah, not for me.

I think there is an underlying issue where Jose has serious doubts over Shaw's professionalism but I really didn't like this interview. The "he played with my brain" stuff was incredibly harsh. It was also unlikely to be true when you consider the two most notable contributions Shaw made (clearance ahead of Lukaku and winning the penalty) were in either penalty area, well out of earshot

There is an element of resetting standards at the club and I wholeheartedly agree with that but I hope he knows where the line is between that and putting unnecessary pressure on the whole team.

 

[Roeindo]

JM treatment on Shaw is the same as he did to Mkhi. We'll make a big mistake if we let shaw go. If Delle Alli is United Player now, JM will critisize him too. JM reign is not heaven for young talent/player.

Oh, and there's one thing that still make me wonder, If JM persist on integrating Fellaini into the midfield three, why he did not even bother to try to play Blind in those position. I'm sure with runners in the side like Rashford and Lingard, Blind distribution from midfiled will have greater impact on the side than Fellaini abbility in heading the ball and chest controll skill.

 

[ti vu]

We are going to have to drop this "much higher standards" stuff until we stop getting mid table type results.

I don't get it. We try to move up. Even if we failed, setting goal/ the mentality to get there is always required. So we shouldn't set goal to get back , but Okay for the players to play however they want because we can't get there? Accept defeatist mentality? Confused...

Southampton first few seasons back in PL, avoiding relegation was good enough.