Exactly. I dont like 2 defensive mids screening a back 4. The back 4 are defenders, they have a job to do, they arent on the pitch to have their hands held and be protected like some sort of vulnerable member of society. Lose a DM and get another attacker up front.
Louis van Gaal's tactics
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I don't agree with that our current formation (I call it 4231) is 'too defensive' versus certain opponents which we expect to beat beforehand, I think once the team is gelled that the difference will be minimal (not yet). Last season we've always (injury permitting) played with the same amount of central defensive players as we do now: 4.
First it was 3CB + Carrick or Blind but when we switched to 4 at the back we lacked defensive midfielders for van Gaal as he wants those 4 players in his team. One of the reasons Rooney played in midfield alot is because he could offer that defensive balance and sacrifice his game for van Gaal his wishes. Fellaini-Carrick-Herrera had the right balance of defensive duties, Fellaini tracked back and also protected us by being available for a hoof when we couldn't pass our way out from the pressure whilst playing at 10 (a new thing for van Gaal). Herrera also did his share of defensive work but he's not really a box-to-box player like Strootman or now Schneiderlin which we've lacked last season so he's down the picking order for now.
Now we've solved that problem of lacking players van Gaal wanted we can finally play his (I think) preferred formation of the 433 which we've seen this season.
First it was 3CB + Carrick or Blind but when we switched to 4 at the back we lacked defensive midfielders for van Gaal as he wants those 4 players in his team. One of the reasons Rooney played in midfield alot is because he could offer that defensive balance and sacrifice his game for van Gaal his wishes. Fellaini-Carrick-Herrera had the right balance of defensive duties, Fellaini tracked back and also protected us by being available for a hoof when we couldn't pass our way out from the pressure whilst playing at 10 (a new thing for van Gaal). Herrera also did his share of defensive work but he's not really a box-to-box player like Strootman or now Schneiderlin which we've lacked last season so he's down the picking order for now.
Now we've solved that problem of lacking players van Gaal wanted we can finally play his (I think) preferred formation of the 433 which we've seen this season.
We are playing with width abut not using the width to really attack. What i mean by this is that players all over the pitch make the pitch bigger by spreading out when in possession however we arent really making use of wide areas as well as we could, especially on the right with Mata out there. Darmian isnt really overlapping and delivering crosses and Mata isnt getting to the byline and delivering balls. The only times we make use of the width in attack seems to be on the left and teams seem to have worked this out. We could really do with a proper right sided player giving us attacking intent on that side.
I agree with this. In a way its similar to how we were playing when he played 5-3-2 last season, different formation but the same in that there is more of less 6 defensive players and 4 attackers with nothing in between. We have no link between defense and attack and its so obvious. When Van Gaal was forced to change things last season, Herrera and Fellaini became the link between Defensive midfield and attack and suddenly we looked a much more dangerous side going forward. Now they are not in the side we are missing the link again. There is a simple solution in playing Herrera at number 10 or if Van Gaal doesn't want to do that then play Herrera in the midfield 2, Scheiderlin or Carrick can sit and Herrera can play box to box, he is perfectly capable of this but the manager just doesn't seem to rate him and doesn't see what we are missing. Bridge this missing gap and get a striker who can actually score goals and we will do pretty well IMO.
I don't really know what he wants in attack. Every team we face floods the middle mostly because we're so slow but he still wants to play Januzaj who holds on to the ball too long/has lots to learn there and Mata out wide who does all his best work coming inside and doesn't have the pace to go down the line and if he did it would be on his weaker foot. Surely switch the two around. Januzaj can exploit wide areas better and crucially has the pace to be able to make an inside run while Mata has the passing to find the run, similarly with Depay. Add to that Mata is a good finisher.
I also don't really get why Herrera is out of the team when he actually showed he could get goals from midfield last season, not to mention was forging a good understanding with Mata. I get why he's maybe not first choice as part of the base of the midfield but not why he wasn't tried more as the number 10. I know LVG has said he prefers a second striker there but if the players you have don't suit that role (bar Fellaini) why play it?
As part of a midfield 3, playing as a 3rd midfielder I think Herrera/Mata could have a much bigger impact, playing facing the opposition goal rather than playing closer to Rooney and often having their back to goal and with Depay/Mata ahead of them, not behind them. Playing Mata/Herrera a bit deeper with Depay/Januzaj providing the runs to stretch the other team would make a big difference to me and just seems a much more natural fit with the players we have.
I also don't really get why Herrera is out of the team when he actually showed he could get goals from midfield last season, not to mention was forging a good understanding with Mata. I get why he's maybe not first choice as part of the base of the midfield but not why he wasn't tried more as the number 10. I know LVG has said he prefers a second striker there but if the players you have don't suit that role (bar Fellaini) why play it?
As part of a midfield 3, playing as a 3rd midfielder I think Herrera/Mata could have a much bigger impact, playing facing the opposition goal rather than playing closer to Rooney and often having their back to goal and with Depay/Mata ahead of them, not behind them. Playing Mata/Herrera a bit deeper with Depay/Januzaj providing the runs to stretch the other team would make a big difference to me and just seems a much more natural fit with the players we have.
He's not a box-box midfielder. His best work is stopping opponents.
Carrick/Scheiderlin is just a far too defensive a midfield partnership, especially with how deep LVG deploys them.
One of Schweinstiger/Herrera should be in every lineup, to add attacking threat from midfield.
One of Schweinstiger/Herrera should be in every lineup, to add attacking threat from midfield.
about the 2 defensive mids. Ac Milan played with 3 defensive midfield when they crushed everyone during Acelotti era.
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to you too.One of those 3 DMs was Pirlo. Then you had Gatusso, the real DM, and a box-to-box in Ambrosini or Seedorf. Ahead of those 3 "DMs" were some combination of Kaka, Seedorf, Crespo, Shevchenko, Inzaghi and Rui Costa.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/22/teams-of-the-decade-14-milan-2002-07/
Top post, great article.A
One of those 3 DMs was Pirlo. Then you had Gatusso, the real DM, and a box-to-box in Ambrosini or Seedorf. Ahead of those 3 "DMs" were some combination of Kaka, Seedorf, Crespo, Shevchenko, Inzaghi and Rui Costa.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/22/teams-of-the-decade-14-milan-2002-07/
Can't really see point in complaining about playing with '2 CDMs' bar the obvious 'but herrera doesn't play ffs!!11' shit. We've gained this defensive solidity not just thanks to our defenders but as well those two CDMs who we were screaming for and give us exactly what we need. Our attack is just not doing much enough and to be fair last game we've had a fair share of chances that should've been converted but we just weren't prolific enough.
That is exactly what he is doing. He breaks things up. He is very good at it as well, but he isn't a great passer and can't or isn't allowed to all of a sudden turn up on the edge of the oppositions penalty area.
All this will come to a head when we go behind and we actually don't pull something out of the bag. Problem is will he make the right changes or actually end up making things worse.
So wouldn't it be a good idea then to actually buy a good commanding CB so the midfield doesn't have to babysit them? Problem now is if we actually lose a game will he put 3 DM's in front of the defence?
Midfield's not babysitting anybody, they're doing their job and that's about it. They've got their roles in their system and they execute it, very well to add. And no, we won't play 3 CDMs if we lose obviously and you know it. As for a new CB probably yea, we could use one because I feel that moment Smalling gets injured and Jones is injured too or just off boil we'll be fecked but it still won't change the fact that we'll still play 2 CDMs ahead. It's not about the personnel but the system, it doesn't matter who plays in CB.
I don't agree with this. For Southampton, he was playing a role which was more than stopping opponents. Wanyama played deeper and Schneiderlin just ahead of him. IMO, he would do better in that role for us too. He is neither a skilled passer nor someone very adept at controlling the tempo of the game; that job should be left to either Carrick or Schweinsteiger. But he surely has the energy to run up and down the pitch to contribute both in defense and in attack. I am thinking a pre-injury Fletcher, though Fletch's passing was a bit better.
I think he is currently playing there to cover for Blind's shortcomings.
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What we've gained in defensive solidarity we've lost in attacking threat. If we need two deep central midfielders in front of the back four to protect it then what we actually need is a centre-back to go alongside Smalling who doesn't need to be covered all the time. Given that we wanted Ramos, it seems he felt a new centre-back was required - but now that's all gone quiet.
Two players like that in midfield means there's no obvious link between midfield and attack and for me that contributes heavily to our major flaw - not being able to move the ball forward quickly enough. Against Brugge there were occiasions where their midfield picked the ball up after a United attack broke down, and could then run 20 metres untouched. It also happened against Villa.
But Blind doesn't need to be covered all the time. The link between midfield and attack is still being created I believe but it doesn't really have to be provided just by the either of CDMs, it could be created by #10, so it's Adnan now. And for me it's only getting better every game.
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One of those 3 DMs was Pirlo. Then you had Gatusso, the real DM, and a box-to-box in Ambrosini or Seedorf. Ahead of those 3 "DMs" were some combination of Kaka, Seedorf, Crespo, Shevchenko, Inzaghi and Rui Costa.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/22/teams-of-the-decade-14-milan-2002-07/
Ambrosini was a DM, Gatusso a DM, Pirlo is like Carrick, sits deep and spray passes (More or less a DM). Like the article said, "the decrease in threat was compensated with pacey fullbacks". If all that worked for Milan and they champions league including thrashing us 3-0, then why complaints of two players sitting in front of the back four and 3 attacking players in front of them?
It's not like LVG placed two Morgans there. Morgan is the DM, then Carrick sits deep and spray passes OR Morgan is DM, Basti goes forward like a box to box. We also have pacey fullbacks in Shaw and Daiman. Why is that a formation error?
My only complaint to LVG tactics is we should move the ball a bit quicker. This is the root of our problem IMO, the opposition defense have so much time to organize and we make things difficult for ourselves. Case point to the last game, 20 seconds to go, we recovered the ball from a Newcastle attack, the best we could do with it was to move it to center midfield in 20 seconds. That is way too slow. Every player seems to think before they make a pass, whatever drills they make is not part of them yet.
Just looking at the figures we can`t complain. 3 games in the league with 7 Points won and a good Chance of reaching the CL Group stage. One can argue that we did not Play a strong Team so far but you also have to win against the weaker opponents. Often These games decide who will be up top at the end.
Maybe we will do a Chelsea this season. Play ugly and shitty Football and winning the league and Progress to the last 8 or last 4 in the CL.
Maybe we will do a Chelsea this season. Play ugly and shitty Football and winning the league and Progress to the last 8 or last 4 in the CL.
I fully agree. When we have possession, we first want to "be safe" and circulate the ball within our ranks. However, like that the other team can always get back and in shape and we are not able to constantly create pressure until they crack or make a mistake. It just takes too long with too little movement upfront. All too static and this is also down to LVG's tactic since he prefers his players to be in their position and wait for the ball (what he also told Herrera). Like that, you dont have any movement and the ball is not played quick enough
I disagree. We've looked poor - slow passing and devoid of ideas. And I don't see any tangible improvement so far - apart from Brugge who were average opposition and played far to openly, something other sides simply won't do.
And if anyone should be playing number 10 its Mata - its his best position, rather than being shunted out wide where his lack of pace exposes him. In central areas he can have much more of an effect.
Generally agree with the points here about the two holding midfielders, although for some games in the premiership e.g. our rivals I would be happy to see Carrick & Schneiderlin. I do suspect when he's fully fit it will be Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin first choice, and the former certainly seems more proactive than Carrick.
Although I don't see us winning the league this season, I do wonder if LVG's current style might help us to win one of the domestic cups.
The thing that really annoys me with LVG is the rigidity in tactics and personnel. After their appearances on the tour I was hoping that Perreira and Wilson would see a lot more minutes, but just can't envision that happening again this season.
Although I don't see us winning the league this season, I do wonder if LVG's current style might help us to win one of the domestic cups.
The thing that really annoys me with LVG is the rigidity in tactics and personnel. After their appearances on the tour I was hoping that Perreira and Wilson would see a lot more minutes, but just can't envision that happening again this season.
What I don't get about his football is other managers only look for some key areas and work with what they have, With Louis we never feel like enough. Last year we lacked of striking options, CM, this year we need quality striker, ball playing CB, winger, etc...God know what's next.
Also it worth nothing that those were mediocre teams in EPL (yes, Spurs too, they ain't doing well atm). You don't need 11 world class footballer in every position to beat them.
Also it worth nothing that those were mediocre teams in EPL (yes, Spurs too, they ain't doing well atm). You don't need 11 world class footballer in every position to beat them.
Told ya.
Everything we have seen so far suggested that exactly that is going to happen. This "process" is not some deep-thoughtout philosophy, it's make it as you go nonsense.
Wish I had bet money on it..
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The philosophy is the philosophy and that has been deep-thoughtout throughout LvG's career. The "process" is just his way of saying "procedure that takes time." Process =/= Philosophy.
I think he means process as in something that has many steps and takes time.
Na, doesn't look deep-thoughtout at all, not from what we have seen so far.
I know. It's just an alternative word to the philosophy coming to fore, both of which are annoying.
What did you tell me?
Don't remember which post I quoted.
That's why he says it is a process. Because it doesn't happen overnight, it takes time. A good bunch of the players understand the philosophy but are still coming to grips with it in terms of actually performing it. Understandably so because you can't expect the players we have(not all though) to be able to adapt to it in just one season when they've been brought up in a different way all their life. The reason we are seeing mediocre performances week in week out is because the philosophy hasn't taken full effect yet.
@NL Max - since you've followed LVG's teams so closely - I was wondering if you could comment on this.
LVG seems to have made defensive positioning/ no-risk passing his priority over the last 6-9 months. The players now seem to worry more about giving the ball away, than creating a chance. Apart from Memphis and Mata - everyone seems to be choosing the safer option. I don't have a problem with that, as long as this is a 'process' and not the end product.
In his previous teams, once the importance of possession, defensive stability/ positioning, and pressing, becomes ingrained in the players, when does LVG start changing his approach? He has always been considered an 'attacking manager' - so I am sure that it has to happen at some point in time - I'm just very unclear on when that process starts. Is there an identifiable trigger point from his past teams, and how far away are we from that?
LVG seems to have made defensive positioning/ no-risk passing his priority over the last 6-9 months. The players now seem to worry more about giving the ball away, than creating a chance. Apart from Memphis and Mata - everyone seems to be choosing the safer option. I don't have a problem with that, as long as this is a 'process' and not the end product.
In his previous teams, once the importance of possession, defensive stability/ positioning, and pressing, becomes ingrained in the players, when does LVG start changing his approach? He has always been considered an 'attacking manager' - so I am sure that it has to happen at some point in time - I'm just very unclear on when that process starts. Is there an identifiable trigger point from his past teams, and how far away are we from that?
Midfield babysitting defense and Blind needing cover. Now I heard it all.
Well he explained in the Brugge press conference that we are good without the ball but we are not good with the ball and that is what we need to work on.
I saw that, but he is very cryptic with his comment. I don't know if good with the ball means - we need to reduce "unnecessary ball losses", or improve our use of the ball.
At other clubs by the time this "process" comes to fruition, teams are usually underperforming and he gets the can. Sorry for not being very hopeful in that regard.
Probably both really.
It might be effective, but my god LVG's style of football bores me to death.
The defenders/midfielders look absolutely terrified of making a forward pass that has even a slight risk attacked, for fear of giving the ball away. And the way the attack is so disconnected to the rest of the team is just ridiculous. Stevie Wonder could see that gaping hole in the middle of the pitch. So much for 'total football'
Please tell me it gets better @NL Max? Please?
The defenders/midfielders look absolutely terrified of making a forward pass that has even a slight risk attacked, for fear of giving the ball away. And the way the attack is so disconnected to the rest of the team is just ridiculous. Stevie Wonder could see that gaping hole in the middle of the pitch. So much for 'total football'
Please tell me it gets better @NL Max? Please?
three-man midfield. attack started from Schweini's winning the ball. surprise surprise
@Sam are you still bored? 
The players are clearly ignoring LVG's instructions by indulging in audacious activities like attacking and dribbling.
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