Louis van Gaal's tactics

[Insanity]

Since the start of preseason Van Gaals approach has become very conservative. it seems as though he wants maximum output with minimum risk

The triangle has been inverted to give more protection to the defence. One would have thought that the full backs would bomb forward more to compensate for that change but even the full backs are a yard or two further back in possession (than last year) and dont often overlap the winger


At the moment we seem content with largely a 4 man attack which is simply not creating enough - this can only work well with players of messi neymar ronaldo bales ilk. not with young and mata on the wing..mata lacks pace and young is just not world class.

I think LVG has a choice now to either delve in the market and find a player that can make his attack more lethal or stick with what he has and give up his conservative approach

If I were him I would buy a right winger and a number 9 asap

Yep, if this has to work, we need Bale, Pedro and a striker with excellent hold up play. Right now that midfield has been neutered and made to play just ahead of the defense, instead of one of them bridging the gap as a box-to-box player.

 

[Red Dreams]

Since the start of preseason Van Gaals approach has become very conservative. it seems as though he wants maximum output with minimum risk

The triangle has been inverted to give more protection to the defence. One would have thought that the full backs would bomb forward more to compensate for that change but even the full backs are a yard or two further back in possession (than last year) and dont often overlap the winger


At the moment we seem content with largely a 4 man attack which is simply not creating enough - this can only work well with players of messi neymar ronaldo bales ilk. not with young and mata on the wing..mata lacks pace and young is just not world class.

I think LVG has a choice now to either delve in the market and find a player that can make his attack more lethal or stick with what he has and give up his conservative approach

If I were him I would buy a right winger and a number 9 asap

Bale and Pedro coming to the Theater soon.

 

[Stack]

Hey we are sitting in the top 4 so everyone chill

 

[itso 7]

Yep, if this has to work, we need Bale, Pedro and a striker with excellent hold up play. Right now that midfield has been neutered and made to play just ahead of the defense, instead of one of them bridging the gap as a box-to-box player.

This because if we are to score anywhere near enough goals in this regimented style we need to signficantly upgrade our front four to add players with more individual quality than what we currently possess. Atm only Memphis looks the part so we need 3/4 and you are definitely right in identifying those three. Scary thought though, who would have thought we'd need half a billion quid to be champions again when Fergie left? We can dress it up however we like but the fact that we are this far off after spending £300m is an indictment of how poorly we have managed this post Fergie era!

 

[Maagge]

Mata whos best central is played out wide.

I keep reading this on here (presumably because AM is Mata's natural position in FM) but when has it actually been true in real life? All his best football for us seems to have come from him playing off the right. He also played from wide positions at Chelsea. As I see it he isn't quite good enough when receiving the ball with his back to the goal with opponents close to him. He needs to either receive it centrally at an angle (from a winger for instance) or get licence to drift in from wide positions where he'll have an easier time getting away from his marker as full backs tend to be hesitant about tracking players infield.

 

[shivab]

when lvg opts for a point forward midfield, the two midfielders behind the 10 share the roles of 6 & 8 together.

formation is not necessarily be a static one. it can twist during the game between the phrase of us having the possession and the phrase of the opponent having the possession. when we have the possession and the no 10 plays on such a high line then we definitely need someone to perform a solid no 8 role to fill in the space. when carrick & schweini played together, since both of them are more a 6 than a 8, there has been a relative big gap left between the lines. that's the reason why schweini was replaced by schneiderlin in the 2nd half. until schweini gets back his full fitness we shall see schneiderlin to start the game.

if our midfield is not still dynamic enough lvg may think to play 343 at all, especially when we play against weaker teams

yeah have to agree with that. i think the idea is that mata fills that space by coming in from the right and darmian moves into the space left by mata. But when Mata looks up to play a forward pass he has Young Rooney and Depay to aim at. that trio is not gelling at the moment.

Either we play herrera with schneiderlin in a double pivot which would help fill that space between midfield and forward lines, allowing mata more freedom

OR

Stick with carrick and schneiderlin and have mata start centrally with a genuine pacey right winger playing on the right side

 

[izec]

I dont like it that he lies all the time. Claiming to be a positive manager and letting the team play attacking football.

I havent seen anything from him the last few years that suggets he likes attacking football. The odd game here and there (vs Spain), he is just obsessed with posession and hoping the opposition make mistakes and we will punish them, which we rarely do because we dont take risks.

Robben bailed him out so many times at Bayern and Holland with his individual brilliance. I expect nothing from him in that regard if he can deliver a title, fine, but i dont expect attractive football and that wont happen. He is just a risk averse manager, talk is cheap and i see what he does with the team on matchday.

I expect a lot of games like yesterday, i am not happy about that and his talking of philosophy/process/attractive football. The evidence is he barely produced that in his last stations. Either he doesnt know the definition or he thinks an organised, possession based machine is beautiful football.

 

[acnumber9]

Because people want to see their team win. Fans and sponsors alike want to be associated with winners. Arsenal have played "prettier" football than us for years, but you think Fergie would have cared as long as we ended the season as champions.

We're in it to win it. Of course, if we can play some attractive football, that would be excellent too, but professional football is a results driven business. Success begets more success. I'm sure if you asked any of the managers of the top flight teams, whether they'd like to play dour football and be the champs, or play pretty football and come fourth, I think I'd know what the majority of them would pick. Except if you were Wenger.

Why watch the matches if the result is all that matters?

 

[Igor Drefljak]

First game of the season, but it does seem like there are some obvious flaws in our tactics.

• High line of defence
• Too many back passes (again)
• Slow build up
• Players out of position
• Everything to safe

We are making it harder for ourselves it seems

 

[kouroux]

If we aspire to become the best in England and Europe, it will only happen if we show more attacking intent. No way this conservative and scared football will improve the team that much.

 

[pierrethesnack]

I keep reading this on here (presumably because AM is Mata's natural position in FM) but when has it actually been true in real life? All his best football for us seems to have come from him playing off the right. He also played from wide positions at Chelsea. As I see it he isn't quite good enough when receiving the ball with his back to the goal with opponents close to him. He needs to either receive it centrally at an angle (from a winger for instance) or get licence to drift in from wide positions where he'll have an easier time getting away from his marker as full backs tend to be hesitant about tracking players infield.

Very true. I don't get why people keep saying this. I can't really remember him making an impression when playing centrally, ever. His strengths are link up play, clever crosses and smart movement, not penetrating passes and hold up play.

 

[Maagge]

Very true. I don't get why people keep saying this. I can't really remember him making an impression when playing centrally, ever. His strengths are link up play, clever crosses and smart movement, not penetrating passes and hold up play.

I think he's quite capable of pulling off the penetrating passes it's just difficult to get him facing the right way in those central areas unless he comes in from the flank.

 

[izec]

If we dont give Mata 10 consecutive games there, how should we know? Obviously he had his best games as a winger when he played there for 90% of the time.

 

[pierrethesnack]

If we dont give Mata 10 consecutive games there, how should we know? Obviously he had his best games as a winger when he played there for 90% of the time.

Well, three or four (or even more?) consecutive managers seem to agree that it's his best position.

 

[Lentwood]

Need to be a bit more patient. We have changed virtually the whole squad since SAF left and yesterday we had 5 players make their debuts and Blind at CB for the first (and hopefully last) time. Formations are only part of making a team a team, the rest of it comes from the players developing an understanding with each other

You could see at times yesterday that the understanding between the players just wasn't there. They are good players so they managed to get by but eventually you would expect them to be much slicker

 

[Litch]

Need to be a bit more patient. We have changed virtually the whole squad since SAF left and yesterday we had 5 players make their debuts and Blind at CB for the first (and hopefully last) time. Formations are only part of making a team a team, the rest of it comes from the players developing an understanding with each other

You could see at times yesterday that the understanding between the players just wasn't there. They are good players so they managed to get by but eventually you would expect them to be much slicker

Agree. How long has it taken for Chelsea after spending their millions to win the league and Arsenal with their attractive football, 11 years since they've won it. City have not even got close to challenging in Europe. What I loved last season is the way we dominated against the top teams. The challenge is how we break down teams that park the bus. Unfortunately, those players are not readily available that have the skill but also the bravery to play in this league. Unfortunately ADM only had one of the two IMO.

 

[Riz]

Need to be a bit more patient. We have changed virtually the whole squad since SAF left and yesterday we had 5 players make their debuts and Blind at CB for the first (and hopefully last) time. Formations are only part of making a team a team, the rest of it comes from the players developing an understanding with each other

You could see at times yesterday that the understanding between the players just wasn't there. They are good players so they managed to get by but eventually you would expect them to be much slicker

This. The performance wasn't good enough but there are reasons why things looked a bit disjointed, not least the amount of new players.

 

[DevilRed]

Wish we would stop telling our keepers to fanny about with the football when they receive a pass from the back four. I understand the concept of keeping possession but sometimes it just leads to massive errors and makes us look shaky at the back.

 

[Maagge]

If we dont give Mata 10 consecutive games there, how should we know? Obviously he had his best games as a winger when he played there for 90% of the time.

The thing is most people say it like it's a fact he's better centrally.

 

[Borys]

I keep reading this on here (presumably because AM is Mata's natural position in FM) but when has it actually been true in real life? All his best football for us seems to have come from him playing off the right. He also played from wide positions at Chelsea. As I see it he isn't quite good enough when receiving the ball with his back to the goal with opponents close to him. He needs to either receive it centrally at an angle (from a winger for instance) or get licence to drift in from wide positions where he'll have an easier time getting away from his marker as full backs tend to be hesitant about tracking players infield.

Very true. I don't get why people keep saying this. I can't really remember him making an impression when playing centrally, ever. His strengths are link up play, clever crosses and smart movement, not penetrating passes and hold up play.

Because he looks excellent on the ball and has the best technique in our squad. The way he moves with the ball is very elegant and to some extent similar to David Silva, hence the lazy comparisons.

I would play him on the right in 4-3-3, until Pedro arrives. Then he should be benched. He will get his share of minutes, his ball retention skills will prove very useful in van Gaal system.

 

[Dante]

Mata's natural position in a counter-attacking team is as a #10. But his natural position in a slow building team is as a free roaming winger.

Imagine if he'd played in the hole yesterday. He wouldn't have got a touch against Dier and Bentaleb. Memphis, on the other hand, can handle the physical strains much better.

 

[Oneunited26]

First game of the season, but it does seem like there are some obvious flaws in our tactics.

• High line of defence
• Too many back passes (again)
• Slow build up
• Players out of position
• Everything to safe

We are making it harder for ourselves it seems

It seems VG gets off on creating problems for himself, and playing players out of position. This squad has the depth experience and talent to win the league, the weak link in our title bid could very much be VG

He found the perfect system to take forward in games in the 4141 system, seems he wants to try something new by fixing something that ain't broke

 

[Rich_H_1989]

Bale and Pedro would be perfect! Not going to happen with both but would be great.

I think we already have a striker who can hold the ball up in Rooney. On his day as a lone front man he plays the role perfectly. He's hard working which you need be. He's capable of running in behind, he can hold the ball up so he has all the right attributes. Imagine if he had Bale, Pedro and Memphis all trying to get in behind.

My worry is that LVG doesn't set his teams up to get the best out of fast players despite saying he wants one. I mean would Bale really work in his keep possession football?

 

[hungrywing]

I dont like it that he lies all the time. Claiming to be a positive manager and letting the team play attacking football.

I havent seen anything from him the last few years that suggets he likes attacking football. The odd game here and there (vs Spain), he is just obsessed with posession and hoping the opposition make mistakes and we will punish them, which we rarely do because we dont take risks.

Robben bailed him out so many times at Bayern and Holland with his individual brilliance. I expect nothing from him in that regard if he can deliver a title, fine, but i dont expect attractive football and that wont happen. He is just a risk averse manager, talk is cheap and i see what he does with the team on matchday.

I expect a lot of games like yesterday, i am not happy about that and his talking of philosophy/process/attractive football. The evidence is he barely produced that in his last stations. Either he doesnt know the definition or he thinks an organised, possession based machine is beautiful football.

Last season was his first so they gave him some slack, but if this continues, surely someone in the media is going to bring up, at the very least, 'attractive exactly to whom?'. It kind of looks like he thinks possession-dominant and thus by average/default more shots created than the opponent equals attacking football, but it's too early to say for sure.

He's also already preemptively come up with the 'we need more creativity' thing, which is consistent with the 'possession-dominant = attacking' angle and inconsistent with the SAF idea of attacking football we're more used to.

That 'creativity' comment is even stranger considering he already has those players in the team: give Memphis and Mata license to shoot instead of having to look for Rooney first, (also play each in his correct damn position) tell Rooney he's second/third option for a good chunk of the season. Watch the team evolve a new dynamic around the new pecking order. Basically what SAF did when he sold RvN to make room for Ronaldo's shots. I think Memphis also has the correct 'Screw-Rooney-I'm-going-to-get-mine' attitude, but we'll have to see.

Otherwise, we're going to keep up this 'always look for Rooney first', even if it slows play down and it means that instead of the team consistently getting fifteen to twenty shots off per game we're going to get around ten to fourteen. Do some stat-rat math, making allowances here and there, and extrapolate that across an entire season and it's roughly a 20% decrease in output. Which to the non-stat inclined fan (i.e. the rest of us) feels thus:

If we aspire to become the best in England and Europe, it will only happen if we show more attacking intent. No way this conservative and scared football will improve the team that much.

It's no coincidence that so many people feel this way, and articles get written about fewer goals scored than Moyes, etc.

Anyway, he now has the personnel to take more risks on the attacking end. Personally I'd say he didn't have that last season, particularly due to the weakness at RB. Heck, if we get Pedro, he has even less of an excuse.

 

[Jad]

I quite like Mata on the right compared to Mata in the middle, though there will be games (perhaps in Europe) when he gets a chance centrally. He might have great dribbling and retention skills, but he's a little chap with barely any muscle on him, and I can't see him coping with the hustle and bustle in the middle of the park. Nearly every team in the Prem plays a holding midfielder or two nowadays, and they're no shrinking violets usually. I don't think it's a coincidence that we saw probably our most muscular attacker playing there yesterday.

I'm guessing here, but I assume Van Gaal wants Mata to stay relatively deep so he can come inside and play those penetrating passes. The only problem with that is if there is no-one pushing the defence back, then there's barely any space for him to play in, and he can be neutralised fairly easily. Unfortunately, Rooney doesn't really look to go beyond the defensive line, nor does Young, and Depay was a little deeper than I expected him to be (when we had the ball). Darmian was impeccable defensively, but he is defender-first and doesn't do any Dani Alves runs in behind.

On the other side, Young plays higher up, but he possibly has even fewer options than Mata. We don't have Fellaini pushing up into the box now, and as we all know, the backpost cross to Mata is pointless because of his height, and more importantly, he plays deeper. There was a good example of the problems this can cause yesterday - Rooney had the ball in the middle of the Spurs half and it was 3v4 or something similar, and he had to wait for Mata to come and join the attack. By then, the Spurs midfield and full backs had got back to help out.

As I said, I think this is deliberate by Van Gaal to provide us with assymmetry and a bit of unpredictability, but for it to work, we need at least one of the following:

1. A striker who likes to run behind the defence and through the channels;
2. A winger that breaks his back to make a run from out to in, and can receive the ball behind the defence and finish ruthlessly
3. A right back that effectively swaps positions with Mata and pushes the left side of the opposition defence back.

Since we have a very attacking full-back in Shaw on the other side, it makes sense for Darmian to be a bit more defensive-minded, so 3 is out. Rooney appears to be indispensable, so 1 is as well.

It seems then that 2 is the answer, and Pedro is that winger. He seems the perfect solution, and I don't think Van Gaal will be massively bothered about losing Di Maria, who is a player who prefers to cut inside early rather than linger for the through ball in behind.

A lot of posters on this forum have complained that Pedro is just a good finisher, not a chance creator, but I think that's probably what makes him so attractive. He can stretch the defence wide and force them to decide between playing a high line and risking being punished by his pace, or playing a deep line and giving the likes of Mata room to play. We don't have anyone with real frightening pace at the moment, and I think that is what Van Gaal was on about in that interview when he talked about needing a top attacker to open up defences - Young, for example, is fast but he doesn't make you worry about him getting in behind you, since he's not particularly ruthless in the finish, as we saw a couple of times this pre-season (there was a prime example against Barca) and yesterday.

TL;DR: imo, Van Gaal wants Mata on the right to give him space to come inside and play. Problem is the lack of an "opposite" on the other side who can run behind.

 

[Physiocrat]

[QUOTE="Jad, post: 17920066, member: 97429"
TL;DR: imo, Van Gaal wants Mata on the right to give him space to come inside and play. Problem is the lack of an "opposite" on the other side who can run behind.[/QUOTE]

That makes sense. If Pedro comes do you reckon he'll put Mata left and use Shaw as the overlapping full back. It's not ideal with Mata being left footed but he did play a similar position for Valencia

 

[Jad]

TL;DR: imo, Van Gaal wants Mata on the right to give him space to come inside and play. Problem is the lack of an "opposite" on the other side who can run behind.

That makes sense. If Pedro comes do you reckon he'll put Mata left and use Shaw as the overlapping full back. It's not ideal with Mata being left footed but he did play a similar position for Valencia

I nearly mentioned that in my post, but figured it was getting a bit long so left it out.

I'm not totally sure how it will play out because of the complexity of Van Gaal's crazy mind, but my best guess is that Pedro will come in and replace Young on the left. We seem intent on playing inverted wingers, and I can't see him changing that "rule", whether to keep Young in the team or to swap Mata onto the left.

Mata would probably combine very well with Shaw, but I think he really wants Mata to play cross-field through balls and crosses, and he won't be as able to do that when cutting in from the right.

 

[Physiocrat]

I nearly mentioned that in my post, but figured it was getting a bit long so left it out.

I'm not totally sure how it will play out because of the complexity of Van Gaal's crazy mind, but my best guess is that Pedro will come in and replace Young on the left. We seem intent on playing inverted wingers, and I can't see him changing that "rule", whether to keep Young in the team or to swap Mata onto the left.

Mata would probably combine very well with Shaw, but I think he really wants Mata to play cross-field through balls and crosses, and he won't be as able to do that when cutting in from the right.

Inverted wingers are fine if we have at least one attacking full-back but we don't. Shaw and Darmian aren't Evra or Alves. Also LVG seems to have the full backs playing quite conservatively too. However I fear you are right.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

It's an entertainment business. People don't start watching football to see a team just win. If that's all it's about why bother watching the games?

Football started as an entertainment business. Do you think the big sponsors care about attractive play ? Their income and status depends on results, not the amount of the passes through the middle. Its been a common discussed topic regarding the economical transformation of this sport which as you stated started by and for the people and is now fully controlled by big big business as you are aware off. Fans want to see their club play attractive football with flair, but as i stated earlier the two dont go hand in hand for atleast 95% of the clubs around the globe. Yes people crave entertainment, however the sport evolved to such an extent that managers are getting the sack faster then ever, because of the raised commercial interests which in most cases doesnt allow managers to build a squad. Time is money and the money is not controlled by the people sitting in the stands.

 

[acnumber9]

Football started as an entertainment business. Do you think the big sponsors care about attractive play ? Their income and status depends on results, not the amount of the passes through the middle. Its been a common discussed topic regarding the economical transformation of this sport which as you stated started by and for the people and is now fully controlled by big big business as you are aware off. Fans want to see their club play attractive football with flair, but as i stated earlier the two dont go hand in hand for atleast 95% of the clubs around the globe. Yes people crave entertainment, however the sport evolved to such an extent that managers are getting the sack faster then ever, because of the raised commercial interests which in most cases doesnt allow managers to build a squad. Time is money and the money is not controlled by the people sitting in the stands.

95% of clubs don't have the resources Manchester United have. There is absolutely no reason why United have to play such insipid football. Ultimately without supporters there is no business and football fans do and should be concerned with more than just the result. That's why people pay for tickets and their subscription fees.

 

[LazyRed-Ninja]

95% of clubs don't have the resources Manchester United have. There is absolutely no reason why United have to play such insipid football. Ultimately without supporters there is no business and football fans do and should be concerned with more than just the result. That's why people pay for tickets and their subscription fees.

Resources can't buy you success or the objective of attractive football. Resources are an indication of wealth thats all. I read the other day that Madrid invested more then a bilion dollar since the Galactico birth and the result in regards to trophies are extremely underwhelming. The fact that United havent played flashy football on a regular basis is nothing new, heck, even even during the Sir Alex days (last few years) people complained about a lack of identity and an outdated system. Remember the slogans such as, 'a typical United win' ? or 'they dont play briliantly, but they usually win'. Yes, people buy tickets in a time where there is economical regression and clubs should be appreciative of the fan's contribution. Its much more then watching 22 players kicking a ball around. It's an experience. An experience you share with your family and friends. An experience that creates memories to pass on. So yes, i do agree with the part that football fans should be concerned about the entertainment part, but there is no definitive correlation between inspiring attractive football and unlimited resources. (Dortmund as prime example).

 

[fallengt]

First game of the season, but it does seem like there are some obvious flaws in our tactics.

• High line of defence
• Too many back passes (again)
• Slow build up
• Players out of position
• Everything to safe

We are making it harder for ourselves it seems

As a matter of fact, our manager doesn't think those are flaws. Philosophy mate.

 

[Moby]

As a matter of fact, our manager doesn't think those are flaws. Philosophy mate.

Or perhaps he doesn't believe that the squad can play an adventurous style without getting destroyed at the back/on the counter/whatever and this is how he thinks this squad can play the best to reliably get results. People keep on saying things like how Memphis out wide would be awesome, without actually having seen that work.

 

[Nights]

Why watch the matches if the result is all that matters?

Because people want to see the side they support win. People can talk about beautiful football all day long, but if their team kept losing, they'd change their tune quickly. Even the holier than thou Barca fans would have turned on Pep if all he did was play "pretty" football but didn't deliver the results.

 

[Rake]

Because people want to see the side they support win. People can talk about beautiful football all day long, but if their team kept losing, they'd change their tune quickly. Even the holier than thou Barca fans would have turned on Pep if all he did was play "pretty" football but didn't deliver the results.

That is actually quite true. My boss at work is a Chelsea fan and he always says how we preferes them to park the bus even if it is terrible to watch.

The table at the end of the season the table never says Champions with terrible football. It is simply Champions.

 

[acnumber9]

Because people want to see the side they support win. People can talk about beautiful football all day long, but if their team kept losing, they'd change their tune quickly. Even the holier than thou Barca fans would have turned on Pep if all he did was play "pretty" football but didn't deliver the results.

They can do that by checking the score on their phone. There's a balance to be found. And I can guarantee United fans won't be happy to watch us play the kind of football we saw on Saturday every week. That's why people are complaining despite the result.

 

[acnumber9]

Resources can't buy you success or the objective of attractive football. Resources are an indication of wealth thats all. I read the other day that Madrid invested more then a bilion dollar since the Galactico birth and the result in regards to trophies are extremely underwhelming. The fact that United havent played flashy football on a regular basis is nothing new, heck, even even during the Sir Alex days (last few years) people complained about a lack of identity and an outdated system. Remember the slogans such as, 'a typical United win' ? or 'they dont play briliantly, but they usually win'. Yes, people buy tickets in a time where there is economical regression and clubs should be appreciative of the fan's contribution. Its much more then watching 22 players kicking a ball around. It's an experience. An experience you share with your family and friends. An experience that creates memories to pass on. So yes, i do agree with the part that football fans should be concerned about the entertainment part, but there is no definitive correlation between inspiring attractive football and unlimited resources. (Dortmund as prime example).

The resources can afford you the players you require to play attacking football. The reason so many clubs can't is because they any afford the better players and therefore to survive they at times have to play defensive football. Utd don't have that excuse. And under Alex Ferguson we actually attacked teams and despite the complaints of how we played we rarely struggled to create chances or test the goalkeeper. It barely seems to be an aim now. That we've yet to score more than 3 goals in a game under Van Gaal says it all.

 

[K2K]

Its interesting how history seems to repeat itself with us

This is the description of Sexton's tenure:

Sexton’s United were drawing criticism from fans and pundits alike. People were comparing the fast, free-flowing, attacking football of Docherty’s United to the more cautious style of football, conservative style of Sexton’s United, some critics even going so far as calling it dour.

 

[Jerch]

The resources can afford you the players you require to play attacking football. The reason so many clubs can't is because they any afford the better players and therefore to survive they at times have to play defensive football. Utd don't have that excuse. And under Alex Ferguson we actually attacked teams and despite the complaints of how we played we rarely struggled to create chances or test the goalkeeper. It barely seems to be an aim now. That we've yet to score more than 3 goals in a game under Van Gaal says it all.

It is fine giving your negative opinion and all but the bolded part is simply not true.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Believing a left footed player is a more effective LCB is tantamount to pseudoscience - in another life LVG peddled snake oil and rhino dick.

Propounding a philosophical belief in a 433, and then, when we have the players to suit such a formation, switching to 4411 suggests someone who is talking a fair amount of bollocks.