Louis van Gaal's tactics

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pseudo_canadian said:
... RvP's penalty was horribly taken as well. On top of that, ...
I don't know, just trying to look at things less negatively. Or am I just a fool and trying to justify things?

Then again, there was a lot of aimless passing with no penetration. When teams sit back like this van Gaal really needs a back up plan, and he does not have one.
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You're so wrong there. RvP's penalty was very well executed, powerful and strong. It is their goalie who has done a superb save. We might be unlucky but if we had scored in open play, then we did not need that penalty.

But I agree totally the second highlighted part. LvG was the one who's clueless to be honest. He looks so passive and has zero energy as a manager.
 
This is his first season in English football he would have learned a lot and i expect him to do a lot better next year for a manager of his caliber. It's always a struggle playing against teams parking the bus even under Fergie, we just need to sort our strikers out and bring in a proper replacement/backup for Carrick.
 
Today's performance is not that surprising. I have to say that although I like teams which dominate possession I just don't like the attitude of passing it until the opposition makes a mistake. Why not be more inventive from the beginning and by doing that force the opposition to make a mistake?

Most of the time our players have been extremely clinical this season - that's why despite not creating that much in games we have still managed to score more often than not. Even after the Liverpool game at Anfield which we dominated ppl were wondering why on MOTD they weren't showing more highlights of our game. Eventually some posters replied that we actually only created 2-3 chances and Mata took 2 of them really well. Then until a few games ago Herrera had the statistic of 5 shots, 5 goals.

If LvG doesn't trust Di Maria then he needs to come up with another plan, because right now without Di Maria we look painfully predictable even to a minnow team like West Brom at OT.

I have said it before that I wanted 3rd because I don't really trust him to necessarily get it right in a play-off game, but right now we should concentrate on just scoring a goal, let alone trying to finish 4th.

We always knew you take LvG with all his good and bad stuff - but I wonder when he is going to accept that he also needs to take certain players with all the good and bad things. He is very obviously not getting Robben, and if he is not happy with letting Di Maria play his football, then there's currently noone else left who could provide the same Di Maria can. But then he also needs to make sure that the next creative player he buys doesn't end up having the same problems Di Maria is having fitting into his apparently amazing and eye-catching system.
 
He cant change a game when we are losing. Its worrying tbh. City is the only game I can remember when we were losing and ended up winning, and it was because we equalised really quickly after they took the lead.

If its upto LVG to change something, after his changes, we dont look any beter (and sometimes weve been worse after his changes). His subs are bizarre but so are his decisions to move people around eg RVP and Rooney in midfield and Fellaini in attack.

If I was a WBA defender I would be thrilled with that as you know how they will attack and there wont be movement at all.

Would love to see the stats on sideways passing today though lol
 
For all our possession our three main avenues to a goal seem to be;

Get it to Ashley Young, get him to step inside and whip a ball in
Get in to Valencia, get him to dip the shoulder then smash it low into the box
Get a high ball to Fellaini and hope something happens

We need more quality in the wide areas for this system to be effective, otherwise it's too easy to park the bus. Young has been good but he's not a top player, and Mata, although a top player, just isn't a winger.

I'm sure LVG is working to address the problem this summer.
 
After 10 minutes we had 80+ of the ball and didn't have a shot on goal. This team are showing no intelligence. We cannot allow teams to bed themselves into games because we're too busy passing it sideways and taking too many touches of the ball because we're clumsy. We can say WBA defended well, but these players have to understand they are better then WBA. There's showing respect and there's being stupid and not appreciating your own qualities. The team need to ask themselves what they want to accomplish, because you won't accomplish anything if you don't believe in yourself. Having the ball, your opponents can't hurt you? Bullshit. The number of games we have played too slow and made teams look better then they are is a joke. WBA did well and it they got the bounce of the ball BUT we need to be more decisive. You can always get punished but for all the ball we had today, we accomplished nothing. We defeated ourselves with our own stupidity. Don't pass it like wankers and not expect it to give your opponent confidence. It's WBA at home not Barcelona. Where's the intelligence in this group? We are better then them. We have to look to pass it quicker and be more decisive in our play.
 
It's been the same for the last 3 weeks now, all possession no penetration. Also should RVP been taking the penalty as he's been out for a while?
 
Kraftwerker said:
Better forwards we win that 4-0. We don't have the players.

80% possession and over 25 shots might not win the game but it damn well should be 9 times out of 10. Unacceptable.

Not sure why the formation is to blame. It was 4-3-3. The personnel on the other hand...
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We need better forwards to beat West Brom?
 
redevil2 said:
This is probably one of those very very naive posts I have ever seen. Your opinion is so flawed on so many levels, but here are a few examples:

1. You're not sure what he could have done to prevent this from happening: Well think how a good manager can do, and think how players of our level can execute his instructions. Then you might know for sure what LvG can do to prevent a pathetic loss, at this stage of the season hoping just for top 4, which is hardly a huge challenge by United's standard

2. We had the ball the whole game and conceded a shit goal that van Gaal surely couldn't in any way prevent:
A clue: How about scoring two goals then that conceded goal wouldn't matter? Having possession the whole time means nothing when you don't score. Epic LvG philosophy fails if he thinks possession is > than scoring

3. Our attacking players had no idea how to break West Brom down: Heres a clue: WBA is hardly a giant team we have never played before. Any homework done on how to play them at home would make it easy to break them down. Our attacking players do not know how to play to win, and its not the manager's fault. Come on it does not need a PhD to understand that.

4. we had absolutely no luck out there: the penalty and brilliant save of their goalie of RvP's volley was our lack of luck but to say we were just out of luck today not winning or drawing is rubbish. We had absolutely no plan B but more importantly what about plan A, to play a proper game using our players in their best position and motivating them to play their best. It has a lot to do with training and preparation. Everybody knows that.

If LvG does not improve himself, his players will continue to be clueless in scoring.
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Okay. I still won't panic, sorry. I have seen Barca lose to Hercules, Real Madrid lose to Sporting Gijon etc. in the exact same manner as we did today.
 
This was a gripe of mine in Fergies final seasons where we just couldn't break teams down so its nothing new.

Across the season though its rather obvious that LvG should be getting a lot more out of our attacking players and it appears systemic.

Anyway 3 in a row is simply a disgrace, I'm not sure how there's people on here mocking the outrage as that's exactly what we should all feel.
 
by the first defeat at chlesea we were not shameful. for the second one at everton the loss was counted for motivation issue. now the third defeat in a roll it probably will lead to some changes inevitably.

carrick is not just a marshall of defense. he is also everywhere to go behind the front four to provide support and have the ball recycled effectively. that's why our movement was so smoothed and sweat when he's on the pitch. not to blame herrera since this is not likely his game and probably no other one can replace carrick in this setup. so i would rather to have rooney to drop deeper and push up herrera. herrera should be more productive to penetrate in the middle. that's the major weakness that we were exposed in the wba game

the limitation of fellaini is obvious. now he should be a plan b after a few ineffective games. personally, i think young can play in this role and probably he can do much better than fellaini and rooney in such a quasi no 8 role. he has enough stamina to run up and down and enough skills to move the ball around, and i see him a good partner to herrera since both of them can supplement the weakness of each other. really worths a shot.

is about time to start adm again. insert him to replace young. i really don't see young a prolific winger honestly

for the righthand side this is between mata and januzaj. whoever's on fire in training just start him for the next game
 
My biggest concern is that the players feel stifled by the way he demands they play, it's one thing to have a drilled defensive core but usually the attack has more room for instinct and risk taking, too often our attacking today looked like the players were moving on rails, only allowed to occupy certain areas within their instructions.

His choice today to play two #9's in midfield and Fellaini up top was utterly bizarre though, I can't find any explanation for what he thought that would achieve.
 
1-0 down, at home, to West Brom...and his answer is to push Fellaini upfront, and play with a midfield 2 of Rooney and Van Persie?

I'm sorry, but that was utterly fecking tragic, and smacked of someone trying to be far to clever for their own good. If he screws this up, and we miss out on top 4, he has to go. The football today, and against Everton, was as bad as anything we saw under Moyes.
 
Sam said:
1-0 down, at home, to West Brom...and his answer is to push Fellaini upfront, and play with a midfield 2 of Rooney and Van Persie?

I'm sorry, but that was utterly fecking tragic, and smacked of someone trying to be far to clever for their own good. If he screws this up, and we miss out on top 4, he has to go. The football today, and against Everton, was as bad as anything we saw under Moyes.
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Yep, it is shocking, can't believe we have Di Maria and Falaco at the club, World class attacking players and they are not being utilised properly, they are being told to fit into the "the philosophy" or feck off, why sign them then, if we had those players under SAF we would be destroying teams, tired now of cautious tactics, 3 defeats in a row with no goals scored is alarming.
 
LvG believes in possession. In his world we have the ball, opposition chase it, create space for our attackers, who utilise it. The problem is that some teams are happy to park the bus, stay compact and wait for their chance. The ultimate desperation yesterday was to move Felli upfront expecting Robin and Wayne to make runs from the deep, which is kinda problematic as neither is fast or a good dribbler. I wonder whether LvG can fine tune his philosophy, he may have to do so quite soon.
 
I like how it's his fault when we lose, but it's the players in the right positions when we win. There are certain people on this forum whom you'll only see after a loss, it's a disgraceful attitude. RVP moving into midfield actually coincided with us playing better in the second half. We over analyze every loss, but the truth lies in somewhere, majority of our players are either declining or aren't up to the level of a top club. If we had Hazard instead of Young, we'll have done more in attack, Di Maria isn't living up to expectations, Rooney was poor, RVP was laboured, Fellaini is just Fellaini, he's better in big games but poor against these small sides. Then we have defenders who aren't the smartest, imagine Fletcher heading no where with an awkward ball, and bam, McNair runs into him, some of these things you can't coach..I laugh when people say they don't want Hummels, he's exactly the kind of defender we need, someone with brains who doesn't give away silly dangerous freekicks.
This is not to absolve LVG of any blame though, as he could have helped himself with changing the team after we lost 2 on the bounce, special priviledges should be given for players the caliber of Messi, not ermm, Rooney. Rooney has been poor in the past 3 games and deserves to be dropped. I don't know of any other top team that is so easy to play against. Arsenal would have passed this lot to death, Chelsea would have thwarted them by hook or crook, we'll need to become smarter with and without the ball, there's too much work to be done and am not even sure what to think anymore, no manager should lose 3 in a row with Manchester United, it's the lowest of lows, I can't get it. After last weeks shockingly terrible performance, I expected the team to come out smoking, going for the kill, but our slow passing style set the tone for the day, allowed WBA time to get in their defensive shape time and time and again. I don't think we can beat Palace away and it's a very bad thing for a Man United fan to say.
 
I used to argue with a friend that the reason Ferguson's United used to cede possession, sometime to ordinary sides like Southampton in the league, was so that we'd have space to exploit when the opponent's attacks break down.

This past 3 games, we've resembled Arsenal in their losses over the recent years against us. It's getting annoying.
 
legball said:
Moving RVP into midfield and we actually looked better than we did in the first 45 minutes, again, in football, all that matters is a win. When we win, no one argues about certain players being out of position etc.It's when you lose that everyone starts bringing out these useless information. We were playing West Brom, not Barcelona. We could have had RVP as CB and still won on another day.
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We did, but I would have taken Fellaini off and moved Rooney back up front. If all Fellaini can do is be a target man, as he doesn't trust him in midfield. Then what is the point?
 
NinjaZombie said:
I used to argue with a friend that the reason Ferguson's United used to cede possession, sometime to ordinary sides like Southampton in the league, was so that we'd have space to exploit when the opponent's attacks break down.

This past 3 games, we've resembled Arsenal in their losses over the recent years against us. It's getting annoying.
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What's even worse you'll see people justifying what we've witnessed with 'more possession', 'completly dominated them' and other meaningless bullshit. Now that's Arsenal-esque.
 
NinjaZombie said:
I used to argue with a friend that the reason Ferguson's United used to cede possession, sometime to ordinary sides like Southampton in the league, was so that we'd have space to exploit when the opponent's attacks break down.

This past 3 games, we've resembled Arsenal in their losses over the recent years against us. It's getting annoying.
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I'd argue that's not true. We were just bad at keeping the ball and passing more especially. I couldn't count how many times we'd feck up a simple pass under Ferguson, it's not by design, it's a limitation in his management and on the quality of players he signed, and it's the reason he has only 2 CL in about 30 yrs of management. Having said that, every style has it's flaws, but when you win more often that not, those flaws are masked.
 
Kostur said:
What's even worse you'll see people justifying what we've witnessed with 'more possession', 'completly dominated them' and other meaningless bullshit. Now that's Arsenal-esque.
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Possession means nothing, it's chances created and the fact they cannot put the ball in the net.
 
Kostur said:
What's even worse you'll see people justifying what we've witnessed with 'more possession', 'completly dominated them' and other meaningless bullshit. Now that's Arsenal-esque.
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But we did dominate in this game, does losing a game always have to translate to being shit?
 
It's not Arsenal esq in my eyes, its worse, Arsenal have little technicians buzzing around who can create space, take a man on, not side pass it sideways ad infinitum.
When we camped vs Arsenal earlier at the Emirates they could have been 3-0 up by the time we scored, they were just wasteful with their good chances.

We never look like breaking teams down with this pedestrian pass sideways, non-risk horseshite, the defence knows who we're going to pass to before we do.
 
United lost because the wall they put up did not dealt with the danger of the free kick properly.
It is very obvious that when opposition team put players in the wall is to create a hole that for their taker
to shoot through. If United were to put someone in front of them, the plan to shoot through there will be nullified.
Probably they would not have scored yesterday.
 
All this run has shown is that we probably need 5 players in the summer rather than 2-3. There is a lack of confidence from the players to move the ball quickly and we need a couple of high quality players to replace some of these timid little rabbits.
 
rover said:
by the first defeat at chlesea we were not shameful. for the second one at everton the loss was counted for motivation issue. now the third defeat in a roll it probably will lead to some changes inevitably.
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LVG alluded to that himself, that the Everton defeat was down to motivation.

Well sorry but isn't that his job? United should never ever be beaten because of motivation.

The last 2 defeats are on him
 
Kostur said:
Does having more possession with which you don't create clear-cut chances translate into 'dominating' the opponent?
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West Brom playing against ANY top team would definitely have the less possession, why is it a problem when it happens to us? We did't lose because we had more of the ball, we lost because we didn't score with the chances we had. We created chances and had a penalty, on another day we could easily have put it away, like we did against Sunderland, Aston Villa and 90% of the smaller teams that came to OT this season. You could make this stupid argument against Chelsea and Everton, not on yesterdays' game. The lot of you lose your sense of rationality once the team is losing. We created chances, not sure what equates as clear, seeing as the opposition had 2 banks of 4 and 5.
 
legball said:
West Brom playing against ANY top team would definitely have the less possession, why is it a problem when it happens to us? We did't lose because we had more of the ball, we lost because we didn't score with the chances we had. We created chances and had a penalty, on another day we could easily have put it away, like we did against Sunderland, Aston Villa and 90% of the smaller teams that came to OT this season. You could make this stupid argument against Chelsea and Everton, not on yesterdays' game. The lot of you lose your sense of rationality once the team is losing. We created chances, not sure what equates as clear, seeing as the opposition had 2 banks of 4 and 5.
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I'd say we've had 3, maybe 4 clear cut chances yesterday, one was penalty, one would be Paddy's header and there probably was something I've missed, that's just not good enough. Other than that it was shitty shooting at the keeper (with maybe 1-2 very good saves from him), blocked shots and hopeless crossing against 1,9x m centrebacks. That does not equal domination.
 
Kostur said:
I'd say we've had 3, maybe 4 clear cut chances yesterday, one was penalty, one would be Paddy's header and there probably was something I've missed, that's just not good enough. Other than that it was shitty shooting at the keeper (with maybe 1-2 very good saves from him), blocked shots and hopeless crossing against 1,9x m centrebacks. That does not equal domination.
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Oh, so, now you've gone from we created nothing, to we created 3 and stuff.
 
legball said:
Oh, so, now you've gone from we created nothing, to we created 3 and stuff.
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I haven't said that we've 'created nothing' in the first place, have I? I've said that having 80% possession means feck all when you don't create chances and my point still stands. 3, maybe 4 chances created with 80% is poor to say the least.
 
Stretford End Phil said:
The whole season is down to him and everything about it including poor motivation and tactical immaturity in the tail end of the season.
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The natives are getting restless...

Rightly so, I might add.

Van Gaal hasn't done the business this season. Hopefully, he can get us over the line for fourth, but the bluster hasn't been backed up.
 
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