Started off that way. Just looked a bit different because Hererra was so anonymous. Once Fellaini came on we were chasing the game and he was obviously asked to play much further forwards.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
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Started off that way. Just looked a bit different because Hererra was so anonymous. Once Fellaini came on we were chasing the game and he was obviously asked to play much further forwards.
Btw those comparisons are stupid and pointless. LVG is building a whole new team, Moyes was not.
This is exactly the sort of thing that is misleading. Van Gaal pointed out himself that this team needs to develop into a team first and it's not really a surprise that it isn't working out as a team as yet. Individually the new signings have done well or have been decent, but as a team it's completely normal that it isn't really working altogether. We have six new players starting together in Falcao, Ander Herrera, di Maria, Rojo, Blind and Shaw, something Moyes never had to face. Mata isn't exactly long with us either.
I really don't get the impatience from a lot of posters on the caf. Sure, we invested a lot, have a better manager and most were probably hoping that everything would click straight away, but the manager has one more the one occasion pointed out that we will struggle for a few months. The signs are already encouraging. We are definitely improving offensively and it's only a matter of time before mistakes like last night won't happen again in my eyes. A Bayern Munich supporting mate of mine said to me that they weren't playing well until November. Everyone has seen to what van Gaal is capable at the World Cup and this "it's only the World Cup" horseshit doesn't make it any less relevant.
Herrera was playing further up the pitch then Mata. The only player playing like a conventional midfielder was Blind.
I had a thought that maybe Herrera was playing further forward as we didn't want him getting too stuck in, what with his ribs, that might just be clutching at straws, mind.
We heard from dutch journo's in pre-season that he's liable to say such things early in his time at clubs. Apparently he's more interested in seeing how the players are implementing his plans than the overall results or even the overall level of performances. If he sees a close connection between how he wants to play and how the team plays on the pitch, that's progress.
In a way I see his point, even if I instinctively dont agree. We were undone by two individual errors yesterday (from Shaw and Jones respectively), but our goals and control of the game came from our team efforts. That's better than failing to control the game and playing without any structure but drawing with two isolated moments of skill. At least in terms of the team's development anyway.
Nah, Herrera was the most advanced midfielder along with Mata. Definitely a 4-1-4-1 sort of thing. I found it strange as when I saw the team sheet, I was certain Herrera would partner Blind. Instead he was 20 yards ahead of him along with Mata, leaving us vulnerable on the counter.
I was really hoping to see Carrick and Blind playing together last night actually. Now I doubt we'll be seeing that for a while, given our upcoming fixtures
Definitely.
And - to an extent - that's entirely fair. For how much longer though? Like you say, the next few games will make the unease a lot more widespread.
I fully expect us to get humped by both Chelsea and City fwiw. Anything less than 4 points from Arsenal and Palace will be cause for serious concern though. I do think there are signs of improvement (especially in the last two games) but they should be a lot more substantial in the coming weeks. If not, well...
Both had their good and bad to contend with. Completely different circumstances, but I wouldn't say the job is any harder for van Gaal.
But yeah, it's hard to draw too much from those stats.
At the end of the day, very very few predicted this start, even if they saw things being slow.
I actually expect a draw against Chelsea, as I suspect both teams will setup pragmatically. City will hammer us though.
I fear City away could be another bloodbath tbh.
That was exactly what I was thinking and that LvG realised it wasn't a good idea. You and me might be clutching at the same straws.
There were times we got hammered by them when SAF was in charge, so why people freak out so much I don't know.
One thing LVG is doing that Moyes didn’t is bringing the Club in a direction that he believes will bring us back to winning ways, it’s going to be a long road and I fully expected this season to go better than it currently is and he has to take some of the blame for that, just like he will receive the credit for getting us back to winning ways (hopefully)
We will get beat by Chelsea and City and possibly Southampton as well, if we fail to be in real contention for a top 3 finish by xmas then I’m certain people will start to turn. The Club have spent big this summer and we still haven’t seen the benefit of it
I guess people are willing to give LVG time as they see a pattern of play developing in the team--Unlike under Moyes. Plus he also has a track record of being a very slow starter.
I can't remember us conceeding a goal where the oppo has carved us open. It's always been a wonder goal/ a brain fart from one of our players. If you take the Leicester game out (as it was an anomaly), the team would have conceeded 7 in 7 in the league. Which isn't a bad stat when you consider how weak the back 4 supposedly is.
The team performance is fine and is improving. We just have to cut out the individual errors. This was unlike under Moyes where the team performance didn't improve but rather relied on individual brilliace.
I can't remember us conceeding a goal where the oppo has carved us open. It's always been a wonder goal/ a brain fart from one of our players. If you take the Leicester game out (as it was an anomaly), the team would have conceeded 7 in 7 in the league. Which isn't a bad stat when you consider how weak the back 4 supposedly is.
The team performance is fine and is improving. We just have to cut out the individual errors. This was unlike under Moyes where the team performance didn't improve but rather relied on individual brilliace.
How long did it take before he got this Bayern and Barca teams on a winning run? Because i'm getting really worried that it might be too late before we see that here!! 
Just looking for some positivity today - the next two weeks could be horrendous
Just looking for some positivity today - the next two weeks could be horrendous
That was exactly what I was thinking and that LvG realised it wasn't a good idea. You and me might be clutching at the same straws.
It was the only semi rational explanation I could think of for randomly pushing Hererra further forward
I think LVG is still adapting to the league aswell.
At the minute he is happy setting up teams to sit back and contain, letting the opposition defense have the ball. Maybe in other countries their defenders were not so composed, or didn't play as many long balls forward. In England though (or atleast for us) this does not seem to work. We are at our best when hounding the opposition and giving them little time to rest.
Once we started doing that after the first goal had gone in, we were much the better team. If we sit off against Chelsea and City, they will just build up and play it around us. We need to get in their faces and disrupt the opposition.
At the minute he is happy setting up teams to sit back and contain, letting the opposition defense have the ball. Maybe in other countries their defenders were not so composed, or didn't play as many long balls forward. In England though (or atleast for us) this does not seem to work. We are at our best when hounding the opposition and giving them little time to rest.
Once we started doing that after the first goal had gone in, we were much the better team. If we sit off against Chelsea and City, they will just build up and play it around us. We need to get in their faces and disrupt the opposition.
I would agree with this if Moyes was still in charge, as you could count on him in the big games to fail. With van Gaal in charge it's a completely different matter and all the players look more confident, whereas with Moyes they probably lost the game in their minds beforehand at the end of his tenure.
What's with the Moyes vs. van Gaal statistical comparisons at this point?
How is it possible that these statisticians were making these points when Louis' United was sitting in Fourth place in the league at the time?
How is it possible that these statisticians were making these points when Louis' United was sitting in Fourth place in the league at the time?
I don't agree at all. It's worked loads, for a number of teams (in one off games, and over a season)
We used to do this to Arsenal game after game, for example.
We aren't even sitting back. I don't see how you see this. If anything, we're trying to control possession (and failing to do it properly)
Our problem is our shape and our lack of ability to pass into dangerous areas. It's all pretty on the half way line, and then it's a huge struggle to play through the middle as we get higher. And we lose our shape in the process.
Having had a relatively easy start to the season. The only half-decent side we've played to date is Everton, and we only just beat them by the skin of our teeth.
Pretty sure he doesnt advise players to go walkabouts from CB positions and he singled out Phil Jones when asked within about 1 second of the question finishing!
I think LvG know that even if he had taken over straight from SAF, big changes were needed. I think even SAF realised that. David Moyes thought he could just walk in and things would just run like clockwork. When they didn't he resorted to belittling his players and knocking their confidence. The players soon lost faith in him. Had no fear of him. I think the players respect and are getting back to fearing the manager and will want to get his praise. With Moyes the players couldn't care less.
The variables are paramount, Nessun. It's an argument that those weaker teams we've faced thus far this season are in fact better than some of the teams we faced in the initial fixtures of last season, thus making an argument in and of itself that the start to our season has not been "relatively easy".
Just in last nights game alone they were showing we did it. Did you watch the game on sky?. For the first 5-10 minutes of the game we hardly touched the ball, because we sat off deep and just allowed them to throw the ball forward.
I am not saying containing in 2 banks of 4 against teams like Arsenal isn't worth doing, but against West Brom you need to match their work rate first, then beat them with quality.
We utterly dominated possession, except for about 15-20 minutes of the game.
They came out strongly (as home sides do), but that wasn't because we intended to contain them all game.
I disagree. I think you can beat 'weaker' sides while allowing them the ball, allowing them to lose shape, and looking to break:
We never got into a position where we could go 4 on 4, because we were so slow and ponderous with all the ball we had. They could keep their shape perfectly throughout.
If anything, I think trying to control possession so heavily is detrimental. I think we could have done with letting West Brom come out a bit more.
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Which is when we changed tactics. At the beginning we sat off and got punished. After we went 1-0 down they sat back and we dominated.
It's not the first time we have done it either, in our first home game against Swansea we did the same thing. Back right off and only press at about the half way line.
Pretty sure both Leicester and West Brom will look back on those performances as their best of the season. Scoring 2 quality goals with 2 opportunities I dont really see how we
can expect our team to limit a PL team to less sights as goal than they had. They took them. We bossed large parts of the game with a relatively new first 11 missing our captain
(and best number 10 for me!) and resting Falcao. PLaying with Herrera for the first time in weeks and still needing Carrick to get back to add some help in there I dont see why
there is any need to over react just yet. We are about right in the league for our performances. We expect the performances to improve over the next 6 months and with it our league position. Simples.
can expect our team to limit a PL team to less sights as goal than they had. They took them. We bossed large parts of the game with a relatively new first 11 missing our captain
(and best number 10 for me!) and resting Falcao. PLaying with Herrera for the first time in weeks and still needing Carrick to get back to add some help in there I dont see why
there is any need to over react just yet. We are about right in the league for our performances. We expect the performances to improve over the next 6 months and with it our league position. Simples.
Not really freaking out, just have that sense of doom and can't yet shake it off after the shambles of last season.
Actually, thinking about it, if we as supporters go into games expecting to lose/do badly, I'd imagine that the players are also feeling similar psychologically. Which is why we need to give this manager time as there are a few positives.
Good point about limiting the chances of the opposition. I'm pretty certain that Chelsea have given more shots on target in most of their games than we have WBA last night.
Leaving Moyes' own deep-down convictions out of it, this was also pretty much what was expected of him. Fergie probably knew that hiring Moyes based on a keep-the-engine-running idea was a huge gamble - and the club's owners at least should have realized this too. But they took that gamble. Moyes wasn't expected to implement monumental changes - clearly not. The idea was - it must have been - that the quality was there in every part of the system to ensure that we didn't implode even with a manager who didn't have the credentials (or the personality, I suppose) to impress our decorated playing staff in his own right.
It obviously didn't work out. But the run-like-clockwork idea wasn't Moyes'. If United had been fully aware of the need for a restructuring job post Fergie they wouldn't have hired David Moyes. That would have been madness - even more mad than taking a gamble on Moyes as the "safe hands" option.
Teams are taking there chances with ease against us and in usual fashion playinginto 2 goals especially when we are playing away not much we can really do. We aint going to score 3 very often....
i guess the reason why lvg thinks this was the best game so far of the season is that, our players were more connected to each other than all other games. of our previous games no matter won or lost, our playing was basically fragmented into pieces. this holds true even in the qpr game. in occasion we might perform some cohesive play here or there, but the cohesiveness didn't last long much and could disappear away quickly. last night this was the first time we looked like playing as a team.
apart from the individual errors i still see our main deficiency is in midfield.
apart from the individual errors i still see our main deficiency is in midfield.
With Arsenal, Liverpool and Everton all being a pale shadow of the team they were last season. If they'd started this season like they did 12/13, there's not a hope in hell we would have ever been in the top four this season, despite our piss easy (on paper!) opening run of fixtures.
We looked like we could pass it all day between Blind and the full backs, but the minute we tried to move forward, it had to go out wide.
Didn't see proper cohesiveness myself. A lot of the ball though.
Is this structure the same as the mythical philosophy??
Our defense certainly has no structure. Our front three not particularly combining well or breaking quickly. I think people are simply overawed we have an actual midfield now. Perhaps my eyes aren't as keen as others but no structure, philosophy or strategy stands out so far just Di Maria. Perhaps our midfielders passing it to each other and making themselves available but that's basics.
I just hope he can sort the defensive shape of the team out quickly or its going to get messy as its harder from here on in.
Completely agree, it's ridiculous. And surprise surprise it's generally the same posters who were overt Moyes supporters and now clearly have an badly hidden agenda of wanting LvG to fail.
It almost seems like covering their collective embarrassment and being able to say 'I told you so' is more important to some of them than actually enjoying the progress we're making.
Speaking only for myself, i'm just highlighting that LvG is getting a much easier ride than Moyes ever did, despite his results actually being worse at this point. That's just a fact.
I also think that Moyes can have no complaints about his sacking, that LvG obviously has the greater pedigree as a manager, and that there's more chance he'll come good than not.
But there were some people on here - and less so within the general fanbase - who blatantly never wanted or rated Moyes from the start, and so never cut him the kind slack that LvG is currently getting. For them he was always going to be the mid-table dinosaur from Everton, rather than the continental sophisticate they craved.
From his results to his tactics to his pre and post-match quotes to his track record. There were all mercilessly torn apart by those who wanted his head on a spike, in a way that they simply aren't being with his successor.
But I think the fact that LvG - with his glut of world-class signings and vast experience - is himself struggling to get us playing well shows just what a hard job it was that Moyes had walked into.
Of course. However tactics, fitness, training can all result in players making mistakes. For West Broms second goal we were sitting high up the pitch with no one acting in a sweeper type role. My point is tactics can result in players making mistakes and sometimes the manager can get away with a lot of blame because people tend to blame the player.
Yeah, it’s obvious the fear factor still hasn’t returned to our team, never was that more evident than during the Leicester game. I’d imagine it will return before the end of the season but until then teams know that the best way to play against us is a counter attacking or pressing game.
I still have faith in LVG but he still has it all to prove when it comes to Manchester United. Hopefully we can scrape top 4 this season and I’m certain we will see the real LVG team.
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