No, I meant you putting that in your post didn't slip past me. I'm wondering who you're talking about there...
L'Oreal sack first transgender model for racism
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What would you estimate the black contigent to be in terms of a percentage?
It was this part of an interview that got me;
“I’m half-white. My mum thought I was lumping her in with everyone, but this isn’t about individuals. To understand my point, you have to take yourself out of the conversation – it’s not about you – and truly think about society, structurally, economically, as a whole.”
Followed by... “I don’t regret what I said,”
The absolute lack of self awareness and grasp of the real world dumbfounds me.
Just when I thought a model was going to have a new hot-take on something important too...
That's not yes or no, but it'll do. I genuinely didn't expect or even want a yes or no, because the point is clearly things aren't that simple. Thanks.
I'm guessing the part you don't agree with is calling all white people violently racist then?
Well if it helps you out, it isn't you I had in mind when I wrote that.
She said 'racial violence' I believe. Her deliberate use of the word 'racial' as opposed to 'racist' suggests she isn't talking about the straight forward kind of violence you associate with racism and what she in her interview kind of backs that up but it's hard to know for sure. It's open to interpretation.
Don't do that. If you are going to call people racist, and it's pretty obvious who you are talling about anyway, at least name them and let them defend themselves.
Why don't you read other peoples' contributions to this thread as keenly as you seem to have read everything I wrote and tell me who you think it is? And then I'll have a better understanding of your mindset and be able to answer your earlier question a bit better.
If you can be bothered, outline the sentiment that you agree with. You're prevaricating in almost every single post.
Use actual words to describe how you feel, what it is that you agree with. Be specific.
You'll never get truly condemned for saying 'This is how I feel and what I believe'. People may feel you're wrong of course. But at the moment you're simply criticising the process of debate without actually nailing anything to the mast.
I would guesstimate at 3-4%.
So when I google racial violence and all the answers lead me to the same definition, coupled with the fact she was talking about an actual violent racist situation at the time, is it not fair for me to view that at a racial slur?
In any sense of the phrase, whatever your interpretation is, do you agree that saying it the way she did still makes it racist based on the fact she's making a negative general statement about an entire race?
Why are you suggesting I haven't read them? It was a history discusion and people far more educated in that area were discussing it, why would I wade in on something I know less about?
As it stands I'm talking to you because you are here and it's interesting to me how you keep dodging people's questions, flip-flopping about name calling, and won't simply condone a racist statement. Because you can do that whilst still agreeing with the point she made you know.
But you won't because you don't think she's said anything racist. Which would actually be a far more interesting conversation anyway and wouldn't make me suddenly assume you are racist too. But if I did, I'd tell you. I wouldn't hide behind a blatant hint.
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My rule in life, if you need to use a characteristic about yourself or someone you know to validate your opinion, it's probably a stupid one. It's pretty much up there with "Some of my best friends are black... but..."
"To understand my point, you have to take yourself out of the conversation – it’s not about you – and truly think about society, structurally, economically, as a whole.”
Honestly just sounds like wishy washy bull aimed at diverting away from what she said. You could use that line to attempt to get out of saying a whole load of rubbish. It doesn't hold a lot of water, paticularly after specifically referring to "people" and using "your" in her rant.
Yep, it's a nice neat little bow.
She should just apologise, admit she said something stupid based on emotion, then talk about the actual point and issue she raised. That would do so much more good.
But no. Stick with the racism. That'll help fight racism.
It doesn't matter what I personally believe since that has very little weight, particularly with someone like yourself who genuinely believes racism is over. I've tried to make points for people to elaborate on. Like the one I just made. The poster made the point about favouritism for black and female students in the selection process for internships. This clearly frustrates him as does this womans' comments which have warranted about a dozen responses in this thread.
When I asked him how many blacks attended his Uni he deliberately tried on more than one occassion to obfuscate the answer which he had to admit was about 4 percent. Now unless that's proportional to the regional demographic in whatever part of the country the Uni is based then there is clearly something wrong with that number. Either you believe as atleast one person implicitly stated in this very thread: that black people make poor life choices that lead to outcomes like this or there is something institutional going on that is at least part of the cause. As a human being doesn't that just make you concerned that something may be going on? Or is your thinking and time better served posting a dozen times in this thread about the one time a black celebrity said something perceived to be racist.
Hang on.
Do you actually believe that I've said this, or even come close to suggesting this?
Obfuscate the answer? I gave you a rough estimation because I had no clue what you were looking for. When you asked for a specific, I provided it.
If you want a better breakdown of just UK students specifically from the data on their site, here you go:
Ethnicity/Amount of students/Percentage of UK student population/Percentage of UK population
Asian or Asian British - 2,898 19% 6.2%
Black or Black British - 577 3.5% 3%
Chinese - 579 3.5% 0.7%
Various Mixed - 867 5.6% 2%
White 9,819 64% 87.1%
Other ethnic background - 537 3.5% 0.9%
Total 15,277
No information given/Not known - 433
You'll find that actually pretty much every group but 'white' is over-represented compared to the UK population as a whole, black by what I expect is a non-statistically significant amount. This has gone so far from the point I was trying to make anyway.
Oh good lord. You realise how small my life is, right? I know less than 100 people and interact with maybe 250 in a year.
My point was: That's my world. The world that I inhabit.
The question off of that: Should I have to show any thought or offer any kind of silent apology for simply being white? Am I forever labelled 'White' rather than just being regarded as a run of the mill human?
You have GOT to be kidding me
We've made it to page nine, with a several day old story, about someone being sacked. Despite the fact pretty much everyone understands why they were sacked.
The model was on BBC on Victoria Derbyshire.
Affirmative action positively benefited white women, not people of colour - because employers still show bias when it comes to hiring people of colour
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/affirmative-action-white-women_us_56a0ef6ae4b0d8cc1098d3a5
You don't see systemic racism in the modern day because you aren't a victim of it, and you choose not to see it.
This idea that racism is over and we're just in the last few hoorahs is only talked about by white people - ask any person of colour if they believe this to be true, and the overwhelming majority will disagree with you.
I'm not really sure what it is you're attempting to say here, except ranting a little bit about your feelings?
The only problem is that colonial subjects weren't all people of colour.
It seems like you've wasted your time. He is reading what he wants to, not anything you've actually said.
This guy must be on a wind up. Either that or the complete lack of self awareness is outstanding.
A sexy, racially and gender-ambiguous de rigueur cosmetics model - downfall brought about by a politically clumsy Twitter statement, in a hubristic attempt to appear woke - sacked by rabbit torturers - chorus of baying social media - meeting Piers Moron. All the elements of Millenial Tragedy right there.
Isn't that the problem with the whole "social justice" movement? Of course they are raising valid points but they drive everyone who is partly sympathising with them away with their crude and yes often just as racist statements. Every discussion needs some form of restraint on both sides if everyone just yells bigot at everyone that doesn't 100% agree with their statement there is no discussion to be had.
Only the first few lines were aimed at you.
The rest of it I addressed the issues of the matter at hand and those attached to it.
You do have a habit of spearing topics though. Once that's done there nothing but confirmation bias in the posts.
It's fine. But you often call people out for 'not understanding because they cant' then demonstrating a one sided attitude.
I'm sure you're a lovely person. I've often thought that you'd be the kind of person I'd have an enjoyable pub debate with. You seem to be be smart, enjoyably belligerent if a little closed off.
Not an attack, just an observation which you don't have to invest in.
Her reality TV career starts here.......
Yeah I should have I'm talking about the interview I posted
No one is blaming people for buying Apple products the point is this is a systematic problem not a problem of individuals which was the point she making in the video, although at times it was put across badly.
aha, there's your moment of catharsis - in the bodily as well as the Classic sense.
You mean like black people have to face every day of their lives?
There have been like 10 black people that have worked here that didn't involve sports but it's good to know that we built our country up from the blood of foreigners. You learn something new every day.
That's fair and I would admit I can come across as quite spearing and sometimes dismissive on the topic of race, but unfortunately it's not something I take lightly, it's something I don't have the luxury (can't say privilege apparently) of being able to take it lightly.
And actually I find myself backspacing and deleting the things I really want to say, in order not to offend people on this forum, so if you think I'm spearing, you're only seeing maybe 30% of my actual feelings and thoughts.
Racism is an uncomfortable conversation - I imagine it's more uncomfortable to talk about for white people than it is for people of colour - ultimately I'm comfortable talking about the totality of racism because talking about it, and having to live through it are two different things.
Unfortunately these are the hard conversations that need to be had, in detail. And I'm sure it will continue to get uncomfortable for *some* white people to have to read/hear in the process.
But *some* white people who dismiss things like institutional & systemic racism or white privilege just annoys me and I won't apologise for that - because it's just wholly ignorant, and shows a clear lack of understanding of what racism is.
In my opinion, some only like to identify racism based on a dictionary definition, or racial slurs - outside of that, they just choose to pretend that it doesn't exist, which is great for them but saying it doesn't exist, and believing it doesn't exist doesn't actually make it so.
Interesting point.
You've lived your life subconsciously assuming that when someone refers to a person/human they automatically mean white, and anyone who isn't white is labelled by their race. Your whiteness hasn't had to be questioned, pointed out, or even identified because it is the default.
My blackness for example is always identified, pointed out, described - this is why we have things like 'Black History Month' when really it should just be History.
This is just one example out of many, when I say it's difficult for someone who isn't a person of colour to understand. You may take that negatively or as me being spearing but it's just a fact of life.
That article talks about a lack of black women getting into university. It then goes on to say how the number of applicants is far fewer than white applicants. As I argued before, I think class/culture is more to blame. Take a look at this article on why Oxford has so few black students, and you'll see that it's more a class problem than a race problem.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...xford-has-so-few-black-students-and-who-blame
The problem is that people from disadvantaged areas, or those who haven't got a private education find it harder. It's not really an issue of race as such, although this might be reflected in the numbers attending. However as any statistics student would tell you, statistical disparity does not necessarily mean discrimination. What it does show however is a class divide, which as I argued before is more rooted in culture.
As for the second part, I'd never try and argue that racism is over and we're into "the last few hoorahs". Racism will likely never go away fully, what I don't see however is racism reflected in the system to a large enough degree that it stops black people, or people of any race from leading a successful life. There is literally no limit to what you can achieve, and I think those who fall short are sometimes too quick to place that blame on an invisible, systemic issue rather than look at themselves.
That's fair and I would admit I can come across as quite spearing and sometimes dismissive on the topic of race, but unfortunately it's not something I take lightly, it's something I don't have the luxury (can't say privilege apparently) of being able to take it lightly.
And actually I find myself backspacing and deleting the things I really want to say, in order not to offend people on this forum, so if you think I'm spearing, you're only seeing maybe 30% of my actual feelings and thoughts.
Racism is an uncomfortable conversation - I imagine it's more uncomfortable to talk about for white people than it is for people of colour - ultimately I'm comfortable talking about the totality of racism because talking about it, and having to live through it are two different things.
Unfortunately these are the hard conversations that need to be had, in detail. And I'm sure it will continue to get uncomfortable for *some* white people to have to read/hear in the process.
But *some* white people who dismiss things like institutional & systemic racism or white privilege just annoys me and I won't apologise for that - because it's just wholly ignorant, and shows a clear lack of understanding of what racism is.
In my opinion, some only like to identify racism based on a dictionary definition, or racial slurs - outside of that, they just choose to pretend that it doesn't exist, which is great for them but saying it doesn't exist, and believing it doesn't exist doesn't actually make it so.
Interesting point.
You've lived your life subconsciously assuming that when someone refers to a person/human they automatically mean white, and anyone who isn't white is labelled by their race. Your whiteness hasn't had to be questioned, pointed out, or even identified because it is the default.
My blackness for example is always identified, pointed out, described - this is why we have things like 'Black History Month' when really it should just be History.
This is just one example out of many, when I say it's difficult for someone who isn't a person of colour to understand. You may take that negatively or as me being spearing but it's just a fact of life.
Thank you for your honesty, and yes it's a pretty uncomfortable conversation in general, but at least we are having it at all. I can't speak for others, but I do feel I'm at least learning something and trying to understand is at least a step forward.
I have a genuine question, since I have no idea what is right or wrong in this area, but in your opinion should there be such a thing as white guilt? As in this woman have labelled all white people as pretty much being guilty from birth, is that really what the fight against racism is for? I ask because @Kentonio above has rightly pointed out that black people walk around every day of their lives being reminded of the colour of their skin, it just seems to me that's the fight right there, stopping the ridiculous notion of skin colour making a difference at all. Maybe that's my ignorance being a white man growing up in a very multicultural area and never seeing real serious racism, it's just very confusing what exactly we are supposed to think and be fighting for.
You dismissed the report on the systemic and structural racism that takes place in these disadvantaged areas because everything you're saying goes back to that argument.
You can't talk about the lack of applicants to job positions, without addressing why, specifically it's only people of colour who have difficulty getting enough applicants.
For decades you've had local and national governments who haven't adequately supported schools which are in spaces which are inhabited by people of colour. In America you've got generations of black women specifically who have had to raise their children alone because of the War On Drugs, headlined by the Nixon, Reagan & Clinton campaigns.
https://www.aclu.org/other/drug-war-new-jim-crow
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/p...chard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html
https://news.vice.com/story/the-war-on-drugs-remains-as-racist-as-ever-statistics-show
Compare that with the opiod crisis in recent years - which primarily affects poor working class white people - and you're not seeing the FBI and police rounding up these addicts and sending them to prison for 15+ years.
But they did it to the crack cocaine addicts - who are primarily working class black people.
What you then have is at least 2 generations of kids who grew up with only one parent, and that one parent who may have had dreams of pursuing a college education, having to put a halt to that and end up on welfare/low income job in order to pay the bills for her and her kid(s).
Another point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_segregation_in_the_United_States
http://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/52665...-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/housing-discrimination-redlining-maps/
So even if you are a person of colour and you tried to move out, you will have been stopped by the bank not giving you a loan because they were encouraged to continue the segregation - so you're essentially stuck.
So even though laws have changed, you've got the hangover that people of colour are still having to play catch up, meanwhile as a white person you're more likely to have had at least some form of generational equity build up from your grandparents or parents that would have afforded you more luxuries such as sending your kids to school
There's so much to unpack here, i'm only being brief because i'm meant to be at work.
But I don't agree with you that systemic and institionalised racism doesn't exist. We can agree to disagree because I don't really have any need to try and convince you otherwise.
I'm not in a position to tell white people what they should or should not feel, I wouldn't want to either.
White guilt is a very individual emotion and I don't think it's defining either - I think on one hand it's great to feel that some people feel emphatic towards you, on the other hand - I personally wouldn't want someone else to have to feel even a small amount of what its like having to live with racism every day.
It really does become like a trauma that you have to keep reliving every day.
So no I wouldn't want white people to feel guilty at all.
Also I'm proud of my race, I've had to defend it all my life against every type of attack, the last thing I'd want is to not be associated with being black or black culture.
I just think that a lot of white people aren't used to being described as white people, you've had the luxury of being the default human, the default person - I think when more white people are comfortable being addressed as white, that can start to shift the mentality and openly talk about racism.
Right now this 'all lives matter', and 'we are all part of the human race' approach just doesn't work - because historically, people of colour have been uniquely identified.
In terms of what we're fighting for, it's always been the same things - the systems that have allowed generations of minorities to be segregated and treated differently. I believe it's getting better, and I'm seeing more representation particularly of black women, which has always been important to me for obvious reasons, but we're still battling.
When I see people speaking up against racism like the lady in the original article I can relate, because I know the pain and sometimes the trauma - especially if you're in a predominantly white space.
This is really something that has made me think. Of all the things said in this and other threads, it's perhaps the most elegant way anyone has explained this. Thank you.
Well as I've tried to explain to a newbie who has pm'd me, we are all from different circumstances. I've always been described as the white one among some of my friends. It's not a comparison of course, it just is what I personally grew up with and luckily for me, rarely has it been used in a negative way. That's one way I guess I'm fortunate for the colour of my skin.
But shouldn't this still be the goal despite hardships? You say it hasn't worked, but clearly we are moving forward in some way. Even having this discussing is proof of that no? Maybe not fast enough, maybe not in the right areas, that I can completely agree with. I'm just not sure what the alternative is.
I can understand why that is the case, really. But the fact here is this woman has spoke up about racism using what is by definition racist language. As I've said before, that is the truth otherwise she would have a seriously strong case for unfair dismissal. And no, I'm not saying she personally offended me, and I'm in no way trying to compare this to anything at all, that would clearly be stupid. Nor am I denying white privilege or the ongoing fight with racism, I'm not claiming white people have or will ever suffer because of the colour of our skin like black people have, nor am I saying I can ever truly understand. What I am saying, is that it's not perhaps the best way to highlight what she has tried to, by using what at best could be described as controversial language, at worst is racism.
I could well be wrong, but it just doesn't seem like the way to bring this to attention. It seems counterproductive and just feeds the hate on both sides.
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