L'Oreal sack first transgender model for racism

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Do you believe your HR manager to be competent?

Yes & no.

 

[Moved To Differently]

You just sound nutty. I'm not part of a people. It's not because I 'don't recognise it'. It's simply not there. Previous generations, sure. Other countries, of course.

People continue to be oppressed in myriad ways. Why the hell can't we just focus on that? Identify the actual people (not the arbitrary labelled demographics) that are doing wrong, hold them to account, then make a change. It's not hard.

Up until what previous generation? And at that point did it just come to a complete and abrupt end? In a transgenerational blink of an eye a culture of oppression came to an end to a point where everyone who talks about it as an issue today is either deliberately inventing something that isn't there or for whatever reason just not experiencing this bliss of racial parity that you seem to be enjoying?

 

[Moved To Differently]

Yes & no.

It can't really be both yes and no, surely she is or she is not.

 

[Carolina Red]

It can't really be both yes and no, surely she is or she is not.

Bit of a false dilemma. It can definitely be somewhere in the middle.

 

[Redlambs]

It can't really be both yes and no, surely she is or she is not.

Of course it can. Yes in some areas, no in others.

Why is everything so black and white (excuse the phrase there) with you?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

It can't really be both yes and no, surely she is or she is not.

Of course it can. I didn't have access to her job description so can only comment on what I saw.

My commentary would be that she was a good administrator & organiser. Those are probably key tenants of her position.

The fact that she sat me down to discuss diversity requirements for a 3 person, 4-6 week team that contained a male, a female and two different nationalities, none of whom looked like me or her... That suggests that no, she is not capable.

 

[Moved To Differently]

Bit of a false dilemma. It can definitely be somewhere in the middle.

It seems like a pretty binary question to me but in my opinion she isn't competent. She's made the implicit assumption that UP who obviously knows his job included some bias in recruiting his colleagues which suggests one or both of them is new to each other or she hasn't developed an understanding of him to judge that his actions were fair. She's asked him to do something quite ridiculous and it's implied she disagreed with him despite his practical reasoning.

 

[Moved To Differently]

Of course it can. I didn't have access to her job description so can only comment on what I saw.

My commentary would be that she was a good administrator & organiser. Those are probably key tenants of her position.

The fact that she sat me down to discuss diversity requirements for a 3 person, 4-6 week team that contained a male, a female and two different nationalities, none of whom looked like me or her... That suggests that no, she is not capable.

I'll admit I have limited experience talking to people in HR but that seems like the basic qualification expected of somebody working in any office environment. Based on your anecdote and the sour experience she fostered with you, clearly a capable employee, I'd say she has to be incompetent because that's surely the harder and more important skill - getting good people and keeping them happy?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Up until what previous generation? And at that point did it just come to a complete and abrupt end? In a transgenerational blink of an eye a culture of oppression came to an end to a point where everyone who talks about it as an issue today is either deliberately inventing something that isn't there or for whatever reason just not experiencing this bliss of racial parity that you seem to be enjoying?

We cannot wrap up global issues and apply blanket rules and lines in the sand. It's impossible. My father struggled and worked 6 days a week for a lifetime. He absolutely has worked every bit as hard as a farmer in africa, a mexican in america, [insert any working class demographic here].

This idea that I have lived a life of privilege and enjoy one now purely based on my skin colour is insane. There are millions of non-white people that have had a far easier existence than me.

I'm just a human being and I want to be a force for good in the world. In my own low-grade way. If other people of the same beliefs and values as me see the fact that I'm white as some kind of "You're not one of us" limiter.... Well I'm sure there's a suitable word for that.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I'll admit I have limited experience talking to people in HR but that seems like the basic qualification expected of somebody working in any office environment. Based on your anecdote and the sour experience she fostered with you, clearly a capable employee, I'd say she has to be incompetent because that's surely the harder and more important skill - getting good people and keeping them happy?

So........... Yes & No?

Sorry but you asked a very narrow question that felt like politicking. Had I said No we run off in one direction. If I say yes we go in another.

All of the time we run away from the point of principle; we've jumped the shark.

 

[Redlambs]

It seems like a pretty binary question to me but in my opinion she isn't competent. She's made the implicit assumption that UP who obviously knows his job included some bias in recruiting his colleagues which suggests one or both of them is new to each other or she hasn't developed an understanding of him to judge that his actions were fair. She's asked him to do something quite ridiculous and it's implied she disagreed with him despite his practical reasoning.

If it's fair to be that binary about that question, would it be fair for me to ask you yes or no if you actually agree with what this woman wrote?

"Honestly I don’t have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people.

Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of color. Your entire existence is drenched in racism. From micro-aggressions to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s***.

Come see me when you realise that racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege. Once white people begin to admit that their race is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk."

Am I racially violent? Are my 6 and 8 year old sons?

 

[IWat]

It seems like a pretty binary question to me but in my opinion she isn't competent. She's made the implicit assumption that UP who obviously knows his job included some bias in recruiting his colleagues which suggests one or both of them is new to each other or she hasn't developed an understanding of him to judge that his actions were fair. She's asked him to do something quite ridiculous and it's implied she disagreed with him despite his practical reasoning.

It really isn't ridiculous, it's fairly common place. I was at uni only a few years ago doing a computing related degree. The amount of things from companies we got through the uni email system such as competitions, insight days, networking things etc that were either focused for black and ethnic minority or female students was ridiculous. I'm not exagerating when I say 25%+ we had were that kind of thing. I'd be reading something thinking "This sounds cool, I might apply" only to get 3/4 of the way down and read it was for female or ethnic students. These were big companies, Microsoft is one I 100% remember being one.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

If it's fair to be that binary about that question, would it be fair for me to ask you yes or no if you actually agree with what this woman wrote?

"Honestly I don’t have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people"

Am I racially violent? Are my 6 and 8 year old sons?

You sound like an absolute savage. Your children will probably out-do you though. lol.

In all seriousness, when a ridiculous person like this says ridiculous things, the sensible people should be able to sit there and discuss it.

We should all be able to parse the issue, cast aside the nonsense and have a conversation about the truth.

Are we not even going to acknowledge the fact that a "30-year-old, black, queer, trans woman who models and DJs" is in the public eye? We can celebrate that as a success, even if she's an absolute moron. She was born into this world male, out of a white females vagina. She's spent 30 years on the planet and while I'm sure she's struggled, she's among the top 1% of the world in terms of health, opportunities and wealth. How is this getting washed away as noise?

 

[Moved To Differently]

If it's fair to be that binary about that question, would it be fair for me to ask you yes or no if you actually agree with what this woman wrote?

"Honestly I don’t have energy to talk about the racial violence of white people any more. Yes ALL white people.

Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of color. Your entire existence is drenched in racism. From micro-aggressions to terrorism, you guys built the blueprint for this s***.

Come see me when you realise that racism isn’t learned, it’s inherited and consciously or unconsciously passed down through privilege. Once white people begin to admit that their race is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on Earth… then we can talk."

Am I racially violent? Are my 6 and 8 year old sons?

If that's why you've hung around in this thread for this long then I'll answer it as simply as I can. You probably like black people approximately no more or less than the white colonialists who conquered much of the world, the African kings and war lords who sold their slaves to become European slaves, those regular southern American families who held slaves or the black men who helped their employer beat Emmett Till to death, the institutionally racist police force we have today or the gang leaders who put drugs in the hands and guns under the beds of young black boys and then reinforce the idea that they do what they do purely because of societal conditioning.

If you're trying to reconcile yourself with some white guilt you suspect you should be feeling but don't then just consider if we were born in other circumstances we all might be racist and openly proud of it, we'll all do what's convenient for us but I just disagree with ignorance on either side that has perpetuated this thread.

 

[IWat]

Are we not even going to acknowledge the fact that a "30-year-old, black, queer, trans woman who models and DJs" is in the public eye? We can celebrate that as a success, even if she's an absolute moron. She was born into this world male, out of a white females vagina. She's spent 30 years on the planet and while I'm sure she's struggled, she's among the top 1% of the world in terms of health, opportunities and wealth. How is this getting washed away as noise?

We shouldn't celebrate this as a success. She's an absolute moron. No moron getting to the top should be celebrated. There are plenty of trans and people of colour who should be celebrated.

 

[Moved To Differently]

You sound like an absolute savage. Your children will probably out-do you though. lol.

In all seriousness, when a ridiculous person like this says ridiculous things, the sensible people should be able to sit there and discuss it.

We should all be able to parse the issue, cast aside the nonsense and have a conversation about the truth.

Are we not even going to acknowledge the fact that a "30-year-old, black, queer, trans woman who models and DJs" is in the public eye? We can celebrate that as a success, even if she's an absolute moron. She was born into this world male, out of a white females vagina. She's spent 30 years on the planet and while I'm sure she's struggled, she's among the top 1% of the world in terms of health, opportunities and wealth. How is this getting washed away as noise?

I could have given you my view on that which would have tied in with me asking about your manager but your chose to equivocate and I'm quickly becoming too tired.

Edit: - Well IWat went most of the way to answering that just above

 

[Redlambs]

You sound like an absolute savage. Your children will probably out-do you though. lol.

In all seriousness, when a ridiculous person like this says ridiculous things, the sensible people should be able to sit there and discuss it.

We should all be able to parse the issue, cast aside the nonsense and have a conversation about the truth.

Are we not even going to acknowledge the fact that a "30-year-old, black, queer, trans woman who models and DJs" is in the public eye? We can celebrate that as a success, even if she's an absolute moron. She was born into this world male, out of a white females vagina. She's spent 30 years on the planet and while I'm sure she's struggled, she's among the top 1% of the world in terms of health, opportunities and wealth. How is this getting washed away as noise?

Because apparantly we aren't doing more. Not that anyone seems to have a clue what this means of course.

Earlier someone said something about timy steps and even Obama being a black president didn't really matter. I not really sure what people know what they want.

 

[Carolina Red]

If that's why you've hung around in this thread for this long then I'll answer it as simply as I can. You probably like black people approximately no more or less than the white colonialists who conquered much of the world, the African kings and war lords who sold their slaves to become European slaves, those regular southern American families who held slaves or the black men who helped their employer beat Emmett Till to death, the institutionally racist police force we have today or the gang leaders who put drugs in the hands and guns under the beds of young black boys and then reinforce the idea that they do what they do purely because of societal conditioning.

If you're trying to reconcile yourself with some white guilt you suspect you should be feeling but don't then just consider if we were born in other circumstances we all might be racist and openly proud of it, we'll all do what's convenient for us but I just disagree with ignorance on either side that has perpetuated this thread.

What did I just read?

You ask that people answer "yes" or "no", then when asked a "yes or no" question, you come up with that...?

 

[Moved To Differently]

It really isn't ridiculous, it's fairly common place. I was at uni only a few years ago doing a computing related degree. The amount of things from companies we got through the uni email system such as competitions, insight days, networking things etc that were either focused for black and ethnic minority or female students was ridiculous. I'm not exagerating when I say 25%+ we had were that kind of thing. I'd be reading something thinking "This sounds cool, I might apply" only to get 3/4 of the way down and read it was for female or ethnic students. These were big companies, Microsoft is one I 100% remember being one.

Exactly, and so in that case she isn't incompetent, she's doing what she was instructed to do by a more senior player within the company, and possibly also benefitted from it herself. Which begs the question why these multi-national corporations would take such measures? Probably because too often it doesn't happen organically. It's a ridiculous harmful attempt to solve a nuanced problem but the fact that as you say, it's so widespread, are these people all wrong or do they acknowledge something to be true albeit going about tackling it in a poor way.

 

[Redlambs]

If that's why you've hung around in this thread for this long then I'll answer it as simply as I can. You probably like black people approximately no more or less than the white colonialists who conquered much of the world, the African kings and war lords who sold their slaves to become European slaves, those regular southern American families who held slaves or the black men who helped their employer beat Emmett Till to death, the institutionally racist police force we have today or the gang leaders who put drugs in the hands and guns under the beds of young black boys and then reinforce the idea that they do what they do purely because of societal conditioning.

If you're trying to reconcile yourself with some white guilt you suspect you should be feeling but don't then just consider if we were born in other circumstances we all might be racist and openly proud of it, we'll all do what's convenient for us but I just disagree with ignorance on either side that has perpetuated this thread.

So now you've moved from defending racist comments to making wild assumptions about me.

Yet you talk about ignorance?

And no, I don't feel 'white guilt'. I'm not the one openly dismissing an entire race of people, the very definition of racism, and I'm not the one refusing to talk about how we go about furthering the fight. She is. I'm also not the one defending her and her racist views.

What did I just read?

True colours.

 

[Moved To Differently]

Because apparantly we aren't doing more. Not that anyone seems to have a clue what this means of course.

Earlier someone said something about timy steps and even Obama being a black president didn't really matter. I not really sure what people know what they want.

You can agree with both if you understand that alot of people heralded Obama as being the symbol that racism in America was officially over.

 

[Redlambs]

You can agree with both if you understand that alot of people heralded Obama as being the symbol that racism in America was officially over.

I do understand that, in fact I said when that point was made that it should be celebrated but not used to rest on our laurels.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

We shouldn't celebrate this as a success. She's an absolute moron. No moron getting to the top should be celebrated. There are plenty of trans and people of colour who should be celebrated.

I used moron loosely. She's an oddball. I actually stand behind and endorse many of the things that she's said eslewhere at other times. Aside from the obvious. I didn't comment in this thread until I'd looked back a few years.

However, she's 30. She should be at an age where she could openly and honestly say "What I said was racist. I'm sorry if I offended people"

A mea culpa would have gone a long way. But from what I've seen, she's only tried to justify what she said and that's always going to be wrong.

It's far too true that people of colour and/or those that identify with her gender status have identified her as "One of ours" and rallied around. That's also wrong. 'The white guy is the problem'... but white people don't engage in anything like the protectionism that we're seeing here.

Every race, sex and gender has the ability to act like a cnut. I'll equally condemn everyone for doing something I feel is wrong no matter what they look like.

We could take all of these comments, from her, charlottesville protesters, antifa activists or anyone that's been recently antagonistic and simply put them on paper as words. Put those words in front of people without giving a face to them and good people come to a quick and fair concensus on what's right and wrong.

Adding the face and narrative is where all the nonsense comes from.

 

[2 man midfield]

@UnrelatedPsuedo talking a lot of sense in this thread.

 

[Moved To Differently]

@UnrelatedPsuedo talking a lot of sense in this thread.

Possibly, I can't say I disagree with everything he's said. But it's also possible you've found another idiot who thinks like you?

 

[Carolina Red]

Possibly, I can't say I disagree with everything he's said. But it's also possible you've found another idiot who thinks like you?

Don't do that.

 

[Redlambs]

Meh, why not go lower than he already has.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Exactly, and so in that case she isn't incompetent, she's doing what she was instructed to do by a more senior player within the company, and possibly also benefitted from it herself. Which begs the question why these multi-national corporations would take such measures? Probably because too often it doesn't happen organically. It's a ridiculous harmful attempt to solve a nuanced problem but the fact that as you say, it's so widespread, are these people all wrong or do they acknowledge something to be true albeit going about tackling it in a poor way.

I'm sorry but I really mistook you for someone that actually knew their own mind.

You're flip flopping on everything here and we're now so far away from the point I made in the first place.

You came out blazing a trail for me not understanding white privilege and I've tried to discuss that. The actual matter at hand is that you seem to be looking for racism everywhere.

Take the hammer out of your hand and you'll see fewer nails.

 

[Moved To Differently]

Don't do that.

He explicitly said that racism is over, how could anyone with sense arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Redlambs]

Racism will never be over whilst there's still people to defend it.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

He explicitly said that racism is over, how could anyone with sense arrive at that conclusion?

Who did? Not me right?

 

[Moved To Differently]

I'm sorry but I really mistook you for someone that actually knew their own mind.

You're flip flopping on everything here and we're now so far away from the point I made in the first place.

You came out blazing a trail for me not understanding white privilege and I've tried to discuss that. The actual matter at hand is that you seem to be looking for racism everywhere.

Take the hammer out of your hand and you'll see fewer nails.

It's not flip-flopping, it's considering how both eventualities lead to the same conclusion.

 

[Carolina Red]

He explicitly said that racism is over, how could anyone with sense arrive at that conclusion?

1) She

2) "attack the post, not the poster"

 

[Moved To Differently]

1) She

2) "attack the post, not the poster"

No, he. UnrelatedPsuedo said it and she agreed when she suggested his contributions to this thread had been some beacon of truth. And I wasn't outright calling her an idiot I was suggesting she might be and for that matter I might be. Perhaps all of us or none of us depending on what you think about the concept of absolute truth.

Edit:- I'm prepared to accept the fact I could be wrong but it seems most people are so set in their thinking they won't even entertain the idea.

 

[IWat]

Exactly, and so in that case she isn't incompetent, she's doing what she was instructed to do by a more senior player within the company, and possibly also benefitted from it herself. Which begs the question why these multi-national corporations would take such measures? Probably because too often it doesn't happen organically. It's a ridiculous harmful attempt to solve a nuanced problem but the fact that as you say, it's so widespread, are these people all wrong or do they acknowledge something to be true albeit going about tackling it in a poor way.

I honestly don't know, I can only talk about my own experience. I went to one of the top universities in the country, the majority of people there irrespective of their race had parents which at the least would be defined as 'well off', over 35% were international students who had parents who could stump up the £20k per year international rate. There was a decent ethnicity split, infact being white made you a minority and then male/female ratio was give or take 50:50, I never exactly felt the need to count precisely. I on the other hand had both my parents killed in a car crash aged 6, spent some time in the foster system and then lived with my nan who survived off her pension and then benefits she got for looking after me. Not a sob story, I'm sure there were probably a couple on the course that had it worse than me, but never the less it was still a bit of a kick in the teeth to be excluded from opportunities purely because I come from a race that is apparently 'privileged'. It would make a lot of sense to me to do those kind of things based aimed at students based on household income, you're going to catch a lot more ethnic students in the net because statistically they are likely to be lower income but you're also not just excluding an entire race based on the assumption that they've led some kind of life of privilege.

I guess ultimately race/gender is something which is easy for them to verify. It all gets rather messy if you start looking at income.

 

[Redlambs]

It's not flip-flopping, it's considering how both eventualities lead to the same conclusion.

You certainly flip-flopped on the subject of yes or no questions.

You still didn't actually answer mine either. You just went on a weird rant to mask the actual true answer.

 

[Moved To Differently]

I honestly don't know, I can only talk about my own experience. I went to one of the top universities in the country, the majority of people there irrespective of their race had parents which at the least would be defined as 'well off', over 35% were international students who had parents who could stump up the £20k per year international rate. There was a decent ethnicity split, infact being white made you a minority and then male/female ratio was give or take 50:50, I never exactly felt the need to count precisely. I on the other hand had both my parents killed in a car crash aged 6, spent some time in the foster system and then lived with my nan who survived off her pension and then benefits she got for looking after me. Not a sob story, I'm sure there were probably a couple on the course that had it worse than me, but never the less it was still a bit of a kick in the teeth to be excluded from opportunities purely because I come from a race that is apparently 'privileged'. It would make a lot of sense to me to do those kind of things based aimed at students based on household income, you're going to catch a lot more ethnic students in the net because statistically they are likely to be lower income but you're also not just excluding an entire race based on the assumption that they've led some kind of life of privilege.

How would you approximate the ethnic make-up of your university?

 

[Moved To Differently]

You certainly flip-flopped on the subject of yes or no questions.

You still didn't actually answer mine either. You just went on a weird rant to mask the actual true answer.

I think you're allowing yourself to be stuck on small, quite inconsequential points.

 

[Carolina Red]

I think you're allowing yourself to be stuck on small, quite inconsequential points.

She implied that all white people are responsible for racial violence.

That's not inconsequential.

 

[2 man midfield]

Possibly, I can't say I disagree with everything he's said. But it's also possible you've found another idiot who thinks like you?

Good one. If we called everyone we disagreed with an idiot, you'd have a lot of anger and no solutions. How are you supposed to make people see your point of view if you call them names?

 

[Redlambs]

I think you're allowing yourself to be stuck on small, quite inconsequential points.

No, I just want an answer. That's the whole point of a debate, and in fact my question is the most relevant one to this very thread because it's based on the words that started this whole thing. And it couldn't be simpler.

Do you agree with everything she wrote?