Liverpool 2018/19

[Kentonio]

I agree with this. I also think 'expecting' a league challenge from Liverpool when Manchester City exist is extremely harsh. They had 100+ points last season, if they do it again nobody can be expected to compete.

I'd expect at least 1 or 2 other clubs to be going into the season expecting to challenge City for the title. There's been some huge spending, teams are more used to how City play now, and its highly unlikely they're going to get 100+ points again. They're a superb team, but very few top teams are just sitting still. Liverpool (must as it burns me like the fire of a thousand suns to say it..) are getting stronger and stronger, United (despite their frankly bizarre lack of transfer activity) should still have enough to push City, and as for Chelsea its impossible to say whether the pieces will fall into place quickly enough, or whether (as we expect) it's more just a season of acclimatization before a title challenge next year.

We won the title and then collapsed. Twice. If this City team slaughter the league again like they did last year then maybe its time to start worrying, but after 1 year its just too early to start the alarm bells ringing. It's been 10 years since anyone won back to back titles, and there's been several times in that decade when we all thought one team was about to dominate.

 

[bleedred]

I think the main reason Liverpool fans are underestimating/being cautious about their title this year is that, they have been let down so many times in the past when they have had a good run and slipped up in the final moments. They can't take another heartbreak and are just downgrading their target for the season in case it all goes tits up again.

 

[VorZakone]

I think the main reason liverpool fans are underestimating/being cautious about their title this year is they have been let down so many times in the past when they have had a good run and slipped up in the final moments. They can't take another heartbreak and are just downgrading their target for the season in case it all goes tits up again.

And honestly, their depth is still not that good. I'm sure Sturridge has regained some form but he's nowhere near his 2013/14 peak. Solanke is shit and Ings is off to Southampton.
Shaqiri is a decent player who will add goals here and there but there is still a clear dropoff in quality compared to Mane, Salah and Firmino.

 

[Klopper76]

I think the main reason Liverpool fans are underestimating/being cautious about their title this year is that, they have been let down so many times in the past when they have had a good run and slipped up in the final moments. They can't take another heartbreak and are just downgrading their target for the season in case it all goes tits up again.

It is partly that, but also the fact that City finished 25 points ahead of us last season. That's a huge number to turn around and it's not like they've changed managers or lost any key players. They've added Mahrez.

It's a big ask.

 

[bleedred]

And honestly, their depth is still not that good. I'm sure Sturridge has regained some form but he's nowhere near his 2013/14 peak. Solanke is shit and Ings is off to Southampton.
Shaqiri is a decent player who will add goals here and there but there is still a clear dropoff in quality compared to Mane, Salah and Firmino.

Talks of title challenge for any team at this stage of the league is totally ridiculous. City are favs but they could also feck up. The point I was trying to make is that even though Liverpool have improved the squad from last year, their fans aren't all that cocky about a title challenge as they used to be in the past.

 

[Rob]

Liverpool probably won't finish within 10 points of City, and in my opinion that's not really challenging. If we get to May and Liverpool are still in it, than you can say they challenged for the title. But being best of the rest and have City rap up the title in late March isn't really challenging.

Agreed.

Jurgen Klopp was allocated a large transfer kitty for the sole purpose of winning the premier league title. You do not spend north of £175 million inside a year just to end up with a typically standard top 4 finish.

"But City were too good for us" is pretty sad excuse after the quality (and costly) additions Klopp has made to a squad that was good enough to reach the CL final. He need's win the title this season, no ifs no buts.

There's a middle ground between winning the league and finishing 4th. I do agree that we should be able to build on what we achieved last season. Be that 3rd place, a good CL run and a domestic cup, I don't know. But to say that a team that's spent what we have, but at the same time just lost Can, Ox and Coutinho should overtake City is ridiculous, imo. Just look at their bench last night.

Btw, Mourinho and Klopp have both spent about 385m pounds since the summer of 16/17 if my reading of transfermarkt is correct. With the slight difference that Klopp lost the aforementioned players in the last year. Are you then saying that both of them need to win the title this season, no ifs and not buts?

City were destroying Arsenal at the Emirates and then I saw KDB come off the bench. Their best bloody player. It made me kinda depressed to know that they'll probably walk the league and leave us in a pointless battle for second. So much depth. It's unreal. They truly bought the league. Liverpool and United at least use club-generated resources.

Yeah, it's unfair really. As I said above, their bench is unreal. Can't wait for Pep to lose interest.

 

[ariveded]

And honestly, their depth is still not that good. I'm sure Sturridge has regained some form but he's nowhere near his 2013/14 peak. Solanke is shit and Ings is off to Southampton.
Shaqiri is a decent player who will add goals here and there but there is still a clear dropoff in quality compared to Mane, Salah and Firmino.

Isn't that true for every single team? Who can replace Messi at Barca? Hazard in Chelsea? Liverpool have more options and players with proven ability in their squad this season. And that's the meaning of depth....

 

[B20]

I think the main reason Liverpool fans are underestimating/being cautious about their title this year is that, they have been let down so many times in the past when they have had a good run and slipped up in the final moments. They can't take another heartbreak and are just downgrading their target for the season in case it all goes tits up again.

That and the fact that realistically Man City look like clear favourites.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

@SquishyMcSquish @GlastonSpur @balaks @InLevyITrust

Do you share this assessment?

If Liverpool don't push City all the way and finish at least second they will have failed this year, simple as that, those are my thoughts lol.

 

[RobinLFC]

If Liverpool don't push City all the way and finish at least second they will have failed this year, simple as that, those are my thoughts lol.

So our season stands or falls depending on how City do? Weird line of thinking if you ask me.

If City get 100 and we get 87, we didn't push them all the way and we've failed.
If City get 86 and we get 84, we pushed them all the way and succeeded yet collected less points than in the first scenario?

Makes no sense.

 

[Noo Noo]

I think the main reason Liverpool fans are underestimating/being cautious about their title this year is that, they have been let down so many times in the past when they have had a good run and slipped up in the final moments. They can't take another heartbreak and are just downgrading their target for the season in case it all goes tits up again.

true but as stated above City are so far ahead that its a big ask for anyone to push them. Everyone in the league is reliant on them slipping up. Given their depth they can easily cope with a loss in form of an individual etc. They are not reliant on any one individual. Plus based on yesterday's game they've evolved a bit so they are not exactly the same as last season.

Talks of title challenge for any team at this stage of the league is totally ridiculous. City are favs but they could also feck up. The point I was trying to make is that even though Liverpool have improved the squad from last year, their fans aren't all that cocky about a title challenge as they used to be in the past.

To be fair not many Liverpool fans I know have been confident about a title challenge for a long long time. There's a few that get ahead of themselves sure but most of us prefer to keep it to the old "game at a time".

Plus this season everyone is dealing with City. Been quite a while since there has been a side that has the potential to be as dominant as they were last year. They will lose a game or two and drop points here and there but not that many. I think the big question is whether the Liverpool's, Tottenhams, United's, Chelsea's and at a stretch Arsenal can take anything off them. I dont see anyone else doing it because they don't have the ability to sit deep and defend for 90 minutes under that onslaught or they aren't brave enough to actually have a real go at them.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

So our season stands or falls depending on how City do? Weird line of thinking if you ask me.

If City get 100 and we get 87, we didn't push them all the way and we've failed.
If City get 86 and we get 84, we pushed them all the way and succeeded yet collected less points than in the first scenario?

Makes no sense.

What are you talking about? City are the holders and favorites, you have the strongest team and spent the most there for you should be in the mix for the title. Do you not agree? For what its worth I think you will, but its funny that now when you actually have a team which can compete a lot of Pool fans are saying they don't think they will, that's a strange mindset to me.

 

[Klopper76]

What are you talking about? City are the holders and favorites, you have the strongest team and spent the most there for you should be in the mix for the title. Do you not agree? For what its worth I think you will, but its funny that now when you actually have a team which can compete a lot of Pool fans are saying they don't think they will, that's a strange mindset to me.

What's strange about it? City finished on 100 points last season and have added Mahrez whilst losing no one important. It would take a 25 point swing (plus GD) for us to win the league this season. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect City to win it again.

It's not about us thinking that we can't compete for the title, it's about thinking that we won't because City will probably blow everyone away again. We're not going to get between 90-100 points, which is what will probably be needed to finish above Guardiola's side.

 

[RobinLFC]

What are you talking about? City are the holders and favorites, you have the strongest team and spent the most there for you should be in the mix for the title. Do you not agree? For what its worth I think you will, but its funny that now when you actually have a team which can compete a lot of Pool fans are saying they don't think they will, that's a strange mindset to me.

No I don't agree. You have to take into account the state of the respective teams before the spending took place, so yo uhave to look at the final league table of 17/18. We were 25 points off City. Just because we spent more than they did in the transfer window doesn't mean that the gap is suddenly closed. They got stronger as well, and we lost two midfielders in the process.

"You spent the most therefore you should be in the mix for the title" is a really weird line of reasoning, or do you also think Fulham should challenge for top 4 because they spent more than £100m?

You should look at your own results to make up the balance for a season, not look at how you performed in relation to another team. If we get into the mid 80s we will have had a succesful season, whether it gets us 2nd place or not. If City only get to 84 and we get to 85, great. If we get to 85 and City get to 99, well, we performed to our level but there was simply one team too strong.

 

[Kag]

Almost everybody is saying that Sanchez is good enough but needs to play better. Almost nobody is saying that Pogba or Matic aren’t good enough.

Anyway, our equivalents to Milner et al would be Hererra, Rashford and McTominay and we are capable of playing well with them in the team, just not consistently. Milner’s a massively under-rated player btw. Would be a great addition to any squad.

There are more than a few rumbles of "Matic is too slow" and "Pogba isn't good enough". One of our more vocal posters even made a thread about the latter suggesting we'd never win the league with him in the team. So, it's definitely prevalent. I agree that Sanchez has been largely shite, but how many other players that rip it up elsewhere need to come here before some people (lots already have, eventually) realise there are bigger problems with our football than mere personnel?

You're right, our equivalents are the likes of Herrera and Fellaini. Good, solid players. I agree that Milner is a good squad option, too. But that's sort of my point. Players like him can start semi-regularly in a frenetic, attacking team that plays very pleasing stuff. So why are excuses made for us - or rather, Mourinho - when we play a couple of players in the team (Smalling, Young, Herrera, Lingard) that aren't necessarily superstars? For me, it's no excuse at all.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There are more than a few rumbles of "Matic is too slow" and "Pogba isn't good enough". One of our more vocal posters even made a thread about the latter suggesting we'd never win the league with him in the team. So, it's definitely prevalent. I agree that Sanchez has been largely shite, but how many other players that rip it up elsewhere need to come here before some people (lots already have, eventually) realise there are bigger problems with our football than mere personnel?

You're right, our equivalents are the likes of Herrera and Fellaini. Good, solid players. I agree that Milner is a good squad option, too. But that's sort of my point. Players like him can start semi-regularly in a frenetic, attacking team that plays very pleasing stuff. So why are excuses made for us - or rather, Mourinho - when we play a couple of players in the team (Smalling, Young, Herrera, Lingard) that aren't necessarily superstars? For me, it's no excuse at all.

Don’t disagree with any of that really. My only caveat would be that Klopp’s had more time to get his team functioning and started from a better place (in terms of a coherent transfer strategy, at the very least). Maybe, just maybe, United will kick up a gear this season and we’ll see the vision Mourinho has for us to win the league. Might not be as easy on the eye as Klopp’s would be but hopefully more successful.

Doesn’t help that - unlike Liverpool - there seems to be no alignment between the manager and the money men in terms of the missing piece of the jigsaw. Let’s not forget that Liverpool were a bit of a laughing stock for their inability to defend for most of last season. Mourinho’s a manager who always be more conservative so you could argue that we’re similar to Liverpool at an equivalent point their development. Almost a parody of the team the manager wants them to be. Then they broke transfer records to secure a big target (VVD) and the rest is history. I know that the main focus is on our inability to sign a defender but Mou did mention 4 or 5 players he wanted to sign and I’m sure some of them were intended to make a difference at the other end of the pitch.

 

[RobinLFC]

Don’t disagree with any of that really. My only caveat would be that Klopp’s had more time to get his team functioning and started from a better place (in terms of a coherent transfer strategy, at the very least). Maybe, just maybe, United will kick up a gear this season and we’ll see the vision Mourinho has for us to win the league. Might not be as easy on the eye as Klopp’s would be but hopefully more successful.

Doesn’t help that - unlike Liverpool - there seems to be no alignment between the manager and the money men in terms of the missing piece of the jigsaw. Let’s not forget that Liverpool were a bit of a laughing stock for their inability to defend for most of last season. Mourinho’s a manager who always be more conservative so you could argue that we’re similar to Liverpool at an equivalent point their development. Almost a parody of the team the manager wants them to be. Then they broke transfer records to secure a big target (VVD) and the rest is history. I know that the main focus is on our inability to sign a defender but Mou did mention 4 or 5 players he wanted to sign and I’m sure some of them were intended to make a difference at the other end of the pitch.

Willian and Perisic might be two of those, but I'm sorry I can't fault your board for not wanting to splash £70m on Willian. It's a bit Mourinho's task as well to identify (cheaper) alternatives if the club of his main targets are setting unrealistic fees for their players (Alderweireld, Willian, ...). For example someone like Ante Rebic would suit Mourinho's style and was available for a lot less money. Maybe Mourinho, not unlike Klopp, simply didn't want to settle for his second choice, but then he shouldn't moan either if his main targets did not come through.

Our board/owners are probably happier with Klopp than yours is with Mourinho at the moment, and maybe that's why they don't have such a problem splashing £60m+ on players like Alisson and Van Dijk. Another difference might be that those were two areas every man and their dog could see we desperately needed to improve in, and I don't think that's the case for CB at United atm.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

We need to talk about VVD. Comfortably the best CB in the league.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Willian and Perisic might be two of those, but I'm sorry I can't fault your board for not wanting to splash £70m on Willian. It's a bit Mourinho's task as well to identify (cheaper) alternatives if the club of his main targets are setting unrealistic fees for their players (Alderweireld, Willian, ...). For example someone like Ante Rebic would suit Mourinho's style and was available for a lot less money. Maybe Mourinho, not unlike Klopp, simply didn't want to settle for his second choice, but then he shouldn't moan either if his main targets did not come through.

I’ve no idea what the feck is going on at our club when it comes to transfers tbh. Mourinho seems to be going for the obvious - yet expensive - choices but I’m not sure it’s fair to expect him to also scout out alternatives.

 

[Random Task]

No I don't agree. You have to take into account the state of the respective teams before the spending took place, so yo uhave to look at the final league table of 17/18. We were 25 points off City. Just because we spent more than they did in the transfer window doesn't mean that the gap is suddenly closed. They got stronger as well, and we lost two midfielders in the process.

"You spent the most therefore you should be in the mix for the title" is a really weird line of reasoning, or do you also think Fulham should challenge for top 4 because they spent more than £100m?

You should look at your own results to make up the balance for a season, not look at how you performed in relation to another team. If we get into the mid 80s we will have had a succesful season, whether it gets us 2nd place or not. If City only get to 84 and we get to 85, great. If we get to 85 and City get to 99, well, we performed to our level but there was simply one team too strong.

You should do the same rather than pin your hopes and expectations on what City do. You're fixated on the idea that City will once again accumulate a points total in the region of 100 (or possibly even exceed that figure) when in all likelihood they won't get close. If history is anything to go by anyway.

 

[Rebecca]

We need to watch out for Liverpool this season because yesterday they showed great quality

 

[B20]

You should do the same rather than pin your hopes and expectations on what City do. You're fixated on the idea that City will once again accumulate a points total in the region of 100 (or possibly even exceed that figure) when in all likelihood they won't get close. If history is anything to go by anyway.

If they get 90+ I don't think anyone is catching them. That's a very real scenario too.

 

[Klopper76]

We need to talk about VVD. Comfortably the best CB in the league.

It's debatable but he'd be in my top five.

Robertson has been one of my favourite ever signings.

 

[VorZakone]

Isn't that true for every single team? Who can replace Messi at Barca? Hazard in Chelsea? Liverpool have more options and players with proven ability in their squad this season. And that's the meaning of depth....

Well, Messi is an extreme example. But I'd say the dropoff from Dembele to Malcom is smaller than Mane to Shaqiri.

 

[MikeKing]

I think its funny to see United fans trying to convince Liverpool fans they should expect to win the league while Liverpool fans are refusing to acknowledge they might, of fear that they won't. Usually its the other way around, Liverpool fans trying to convince United fans how much better their team is going to be.

But seriously, I don't see why Liverpool fans aren't more pretentious about their chances this early on in the season. You are "allowed" to be for once, why not bask in the glory while you can? Man City have to break one hell of a record to win it again this season. Chances are they will be fighting for it, but it is almost unrealistic to expect them to go ahead and just be a legendary team just like that, which they will have to if they are going to win it again.

Regarding the league title i think nearly all the top teams have a fair chance this season. Chelsea has a habit of coming back strong after a bad season, and you can never rule out Mourinho winning the league with any team. I agree that you can say City is favourites over Klopp and Pochettino because he is the only manager with the combination of a having both a winning-pedigree and a great team. While Poch and Klopp have laid some great foundations it remains to be seen if they are just team builders or can exploit that positive and grow to become winners.

Klopp have improved the team, but has he improved the right areas? Its easy to compliment the way you are set up and the way you play, but why didn't it work last season? What games, or even periods of bad form stood in the way of Liverpool winning anything, even with the much improved style? Because now that you have spent that much money to upgrade your team, if that doesn't improve the right areas enough to make the style compatible with winning a trophy, its not unfair to ask what Klopp is actually trying to archive and if he has taken you as far as he can.

 

[Liver_bird]

A lot of our season hinges on how Sturrrige and Shaqiri do. That'll become evident later on.

 

[Cascarino]

We need to talk about VVD. Comfortably the best CB in the league.

I hate (with a passion) when people start a sentence with "we need to talk about ..."
Having said that, I'd say he is the best CB in the league. Definitely not comfortably though.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

I'd expect at least 1 or 2 other clubs to be going into the season expecting to challenge City for the title. There's been some huge spending, teams are more used to how City play now, and its highly unlikely they're going to get 100+ points again. They're a superb team, but very few top teams are just sitting still. Liverpool (must as it burns me like the fire of a thousand suns to say it..) are getting stronger and stronger, United (despite their frankly bizarre lack of transfer activity) should still have enough to push City, and as for Chelsea its impossible to say whether the pieces will fall into place quickly enough, or whether (as we expect) it's more just a season of acclimatization before a title challenge next year.

We won the title and then collapsed. Twice. If this City team slaughter the league again like they did last year then maybe its time to start worrying, but after 1 year its just too early to start the alarm bells ringing. It's been 10 years since anyone won back to back titles, and there's been several times in that decade when we all thought one team was about to dominate.

You make some fair points, but I just don't think this City team are like the Chelsea teams which collapsed. I think they're a totally different level, with utterly extraordinary depth to their side (Had several key players missing vs Arsenal, yet you wouldn't even notice) led by a manager who has proven himself capable of keeping a side motivated to win league titles over and over again with no real drop in performances. They also have a pretty fresh squad (Sterling, Sane, B.Silva, Mendy, Stones, Laporte etc) who should only improve this season and will remain hungry, alongside veterans/experienced players like Aguero, Fernandinho, Walker, Silva etc. It's a perfectly balanced squad led by arguably the best manager in the world, and they added one of the best wide players in the league (imo) in Mahrez to it.

You may be proven right, but I fully expect this City side to canter to another league title. Liverpool I think will finish second but still comfortably behind, and then the rest of the top six I think is guesswork at this point. I think saying 'it's a failure for Liverpool if they don't challenge City' is false, simply because you're relying on City not repeating their success of last year. We don't know if they will drop down a level, we're just assuming because of what has happened in the past that they will, but plenty of records and trends have been broken of late. If City do drop down a level then I think the expectation for Liverpool should be that they're the team able to take advantage, but I don't believe you can call it a failure if City remain the same and Liverpool don't challenge.

Again though, we'll see, honestly I hope I'm wrong. It's boring for the league if we have a 'super team' present like there is in Germany, France and to a lesser extent last season, Italy. At least in Spain you have 3 sides who (generally) push each other pretty close. I certainly don't want City to dominate again but I do think they're at a higher level than any team we've had in the Premier League since Fergie's United. In a cup competition Liverpool can push them, as we saw in the CL, but honestly it's their depth that I think is so hard to get past. Lose Silva? Bernardo comes in. Lose Sane/Sterling? It's fine, Mahrez is here. Lose Aguero? Jesus comes in .. etc, etc. Other teams don't have that, if Chelsea lose Hazard, we lose Kane, United lose Pogba, Liverpool lose Salah etc .. it's such a huge drop down. They can lose top performers and it doesn't seem to impact them, and over a course of a season where injuries will be a significant factor, that will be very telling I think.

 

[VorZakone]

I don't know who's doing transfers for them lately but it seems their main strategy is to buy players in their early to mid 20s who are either in their prime or starting to hit their prime.
Robertson was 23, Van Dijk 26, Salah 25 (?), Mane 24, Keita 22, Alisson 25, Fabinho 24, Shaqiri 26, Wijnaldum 25.

 

[Klopper76]

I don't know who's doing transfers for them lately but it seems their main strategy is to buy players in their early to mid 20s who are either in their prime or starting to hit their prime.
Robertson was 23, Van Dijk 26, Salah 25 (?), Mane 24, Keita 22, Alisson 25, Fabinho 24, Shaqiri 26, Wijnaldum 25.

FSG don't really like to pay out money for anyone over a certain age. Klavan, Bellamy and Lambert are the only three older players they've signed (all above the age of 30 when signed I think?) and between them cost hardly anything.

Secretly I think they're always thinking about resale.

 

[Kentonio]

You make some fair points, but I just don't think this City team are like the Chelsea teams which collapsed. I think they're a totally different level, with utterly extraordinary depth to their side (Had several key players missing vs Arsenal, yet you wouldn't even notice) led by a manager who has proven himself capable of keeping a side motivated to win league titles over and over again with no real drop in performances. They also have a pretty fresh squad (Sterling, Sane, B.Silva, Mendy, Stones, Laporte etc) who should only improve this season and will remain hungry, alongside veterans/experienced players like Aguero, Fernandinho, Walker, Silva etc. It's a perfectly balanced squad led by arguably the best manager in the world, and they added one of the best wide players in the league (imo) in Mahrez to it.

You may be proven right, but I fully expect this City side to canter to another league title. Liverpool I think will finish second but still comfortably behind, and then the rest of the top six I think is guesswork at this point. I think saying 'it's a failure for Liverpool if they don't challenge City' is false, simply because you're relying on City not repeating their success of last year. We don't know if they will drop down a level, we're just assuming because of what has happened in the past that they will, but plenty of records and trends have been broken of late. If City do drop down a level then I think the expectation for Liverpool should be that they're the team able to take advantage, but I don't believe you can call it a failure if City remain the same and Liverpool don't challenge.

Again though, we'll see, honestly I hope I'm wrong. It's boring for the league if we have a 'super team' present like there is in Germany, France and to a lesser extent last season, Italy. At least in Spain you have 3 sides who (generally) push each other pretty close. I certainly don't want City to dominate again but I do think they're at a higher level than any team we've had in the Premier League since Fergie's United. In a cup competition Liverpool can push them, as we saw in the CL, but honestly it's their depth that I think is so hard to get past. Lose Silva? Bernardo comes in. Lose Sane/Sterling? It's fine, Mahrez is here. Lose Aguero? Jesus comes in .. etc, etc. Other teams don't have that, if Chelsea lose Hazard, we lose Kane, United lose Pogba, Liverpool lose Salah etc .. it's such a huge drop down. They can lose top performers and it doesn't seem to impact them, and over a course of a season where injuries will be a significant factor, that will be very telling I think.

To be fair I’ve never bought into this idea of teams being failures if they don’t win the league. There’s too many unpredictable factors in a season for that IMHO. If a team is challenging then that’s a good season.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

To be fair I’ve never bought into this idea of teams being failures if they don’t win the league. There’s too many unpredictable factors in a season for that IMHO. If a team is challenging then that’s a good season.

Yeah, that's absolutely true. Sometimes it's out of your hands, you can have a very good season but another team can be exceptional, like City last year. If another team gets 90 odd points and finishes 2nd, have they been failures? Very harsh if so, sometimes you have to just admit another team were having a brilliant season and on another level to other teams. When we finished 2nd behind you I didn't consider it a failure, we were fantastic throughout the year, playing great football and were consistently getting results. It's just you were great too.

 

[Halds]

He's a Fraud.

He need's win the title this season, no ifs no buts.

So which is it? Is he a fraud, or has he done such a remarkable good job, that he is in a position now where he's expected to win the league, despite losing a few of his best players on the way?

 

[TheReligion]

We need to talk about VVD. Comfortably the best CB in the league.

 

[Varun]

You make some fair points, but I just don't think this City team are like the Chelsea teams which collapsed. I think they're a totally different level, with utterly extraordinary depth to their side (Had several key players missing vs Arsenal, yet you wouldn't even notice) led by a manager who has proven himself capable of keeping a side motivated to win league titles over and over again with no real drop in performances. They also have a pretty fresh squad (Sterling, Sane, B.Silva, Mendy, Stones, Laporte etc) who should only improve this season and will remain hungry, alongside veterans/experienced players like Aguero, Fernandinho, Walker, Silva etc. It's a perfectly balanced squad led by arguably the best manager in the world, and they added one of the best wide players in the league (imo) in Mahrez to it.

You may be proven right, but I fully expect this City side to canter to another league title. Liverpool I think will finish second but still comfortably behind, and then the rest of the top six I think is guesswork at this point. I think saying 'it's a failure for Liverpool if they don't challenge City' is false, simply because you're relying on City not repeating their success of last year. We don't know if they will drop down a level, we're just assuming because of what has happened in the past that they will, but plenty of records and trends have been broken of late. If City do drop down a level then I think the expectation for Liverpool should be that they're the team able to take advantage, but I don't believe you can call it a failure if City remain the same and Liverpool don't challenge.

Again though, we'll see, honestly I hope I'm wrong. It's boring for the league if we have a 'super team' present like there is in Germany, France and to a lesser extent last season, Italy. At least in Spain you have 3 sides who (generally) push each other pretty close. I certainly don't want City to dominate again but I do think they're at a higher level than any team we've had in the Premier League since Fergie's United. In a cup competition Liverpool can push them, as we saw in the CL, but honestly it's their depth that I think is so hard to get past. Lose Silva? Bernardo comes in. Lose Sane/Sterling? It's fine, Mahrez is here. Lose Aguero? Jesus comes in .. etc, etc. Other teams don't have that, if Chelsea lose Hazard, we lose Kane, United lose Pogba, Liverpool lose Salah etc .. it's such a huge drop down. They can lose top performers and it doesn't seem to impact them, and over a course of a season where injuries will be a significant factor, that will be very telling I think.

Agree with everything there. Good post

 

[B20]

You make some fair points, but I just don't think this City team are like the Chelsea teams which collapsed. I think they're a totally different level, with utterly extraordinary depth to their side (Had several key players missing vs Arsenal, yet you wouldn't even notice) led by a manager who has proven himself capable of keeping a side motivated to win league titles over and over again with no real drop in performances. They also have a pretty fresh squad (Sterling, Sane, B.Silva, Mendy, Stones, Laporte etc) who should only improve this season and will remain hungry, alongside veterans/experienced players like Aguero, Fernandinho, Walker, Silva etc. It's a perfectly balanced squad led by arguably the best manager in the world, and they added one of the best wide players in the league (imo) in Mahrez to it.

You may be proven right, but I fully expect this City side to canter to another league title. Liverpool I think will finish second but still comfortably behind, and then the rest of the top six I think is guesswork at this point. I think saying 'it's a failure for Liverpool if they don't challenge City' is false, simply because you're relying on City not repeating their success of last year. We don't know if they will drop down a level, we're just assuming because of what has happened in the past that they will, but plenty of records and trends have been broken of late. If City do drop down a level then I think the expectation for Liverpool should be that they're the team able to take advantage, but I don't believe you can call it a failure if City remain the same and Liverpool don't challenge.

Again though, we'll see, honestly I hope I'm wrong. It's boring for the league if we have a 'super team' present like there is in Germany, France and to a lesser extent last season, Italy. At least in Spain you have 3 sides who (generally) push each other pretty close. I certainly don't want City to dominate again but I do think they're at a higher level than any team we've had in the Premier League since Fergie's United. In a cup competition Liverpool can push them, as we saw in the CL, but honestly it's their depth that I think is so hard to get past. Lose Silva? Bernardo comes in. Lose Sane/Sterling? It's fine, Mahrez is here. Lose Aguero? Jesus comes in .. etc, etc. Other teams don't have that, if Chelsea lose Hazard, we lose Kane, United lose Pogba, Liverpool lose Salah etc .. it's such a huge drop down. They can lose top performers and it doesn't seem to impact them, and over a course of a season where injuries will be a significant factor, that will be very telling I think.

The straws I am clutching is that on paper they are not as good as they've been playing. Guys like Sterling, Sane and Jesus are good players but they aren't what you'd think of when speaking of the greatest title winning sides.

Same for guys like Walker, Otamendi and Stones. They may be 'up' there in terms of being good enough for a title winning side and maybe in and around the conversation of being the best in the league in their position - But none of them are the envy of their rivals or stand out as world class players. It's really only De Bruyne and Silva who can claim that.

It's a credit to Guardiola I suppose. As long as he has the players who are good enough to play his system, they become more than the sum of their parts.

But I am thinking (hoping) there are chinks in their armor that simply haven't been exposed yet.

 

[B20]

So which is it? Is he a fraud, or has he done such a remarkable good job, that he is in a position now where he's expected to win the league, despite losing a few of his best players on the way?

In RT's trollworld, there are only those who win the league and frauds.

Must be a bloody bleak place to live.

 

[B20]

To be fair I’ve never bought into this idea of teams being failures if they don’t win the league. There’s too many unpredictable factors in a season for that IMHO. If a team is challenging then that’s a good season.

Absolutely.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

The straws I am clutching is that on paper they are not as good as they've been playing. Guys like Sterling, Sane and Jesus are good players but they aren't what you'd think of when speaking of the greatest title winning sides.

Same for guys like Walker, Otamendi and Stones. They may be 'up' there in terms of being good enough for a title winning side and maybe in and around the conversation of being the best in the league in their position - But none of them are the envy of their rivals or stand out as world class players. It's really only De Bruyne and Silva who can claim that.

It's a credit to Guardiola I suppose. As long as he has the players who are good enough to play his system, they become more than the sum of their parts.

But I am thinking (hoping) there are chinks in their armor that simply haven't been exposed yet.

Yeah, they're not 'world class' but in Guardiola's system players like Sterling and Sane look fantastic, and then you have the truly brilliant players feeding them in De Bruyne and Silva. That's more than enough to blow away most of the sides in the league. I'd also potentially add Aguero to the world class list, so in my view you have 3 worldies in Aguero, De Bruyne and Silva, covered by players who are some of the best in the league in their position.

Walker is really good, to be fair. I think genuinely world class right backs are practically non-existent at the moment, but Walker is the best the league offers IMO. I think the 'chinks in their armour' is very possible (you exposed it) but against the vast majority of the league, I fully expect them to continue to blow everything away with ridiculous consistency. What City have is a 'very good' player in every position, a couple of sprinklings of world class talent and a very well balanced team. You've got the pace of Sterling & Sane and the technical quality of Silva/De Bruyne, combined with the fact they all press like mad off the ball. All they lack I suppose is physicality in terms of height, but I think that's becoming less and less important even in the Premier League. If you can keep the ball off your opponent for most of the game, they can't win enough set pieces to make it count, and when you have the creativity/speed this City team has, it's not going to be LVGesque possession play, you're going to score 3-4 goals.

I don't think you need a 'world class' player in every position, to be honest. Going for names is a policy which failed United under LVG, Guardiola has built a balanced squad with players who perfectly suit what he needs in every position. Like I said, he's got a fantastic combination of youth & experience in that team, and they both outrun and outplay most teams. You're right in that it isn't his Barcelona team in terms of world class in nearly every position, and this will probably show in the CL, but league wise it's more than good enough to win pretty much every week, and the depth means it's very difficult to disrupt them.

We'll see mate, I'm not a United fan so I guess it's acceptable for me to say I'd prefer you to win it than City. I don't want this league to be dull and dominated by one team, but I've resigned myself to it at the moment.

 

[RobinLFC]

Great contribution as always although you'd probably fail to name a better one.