And won two titles with them, so what's your point? I'm sure if he went to PSG, Juve or Barcelona he'd have multiple titles as well since 2012 just like Allegri and co.
Liverpool 2018/19
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Fair play to you for having those expectation considering Utd haven't got near that total ever before. It shows how much Pep has raised the bar in the Prem for everyone. The margin of error is minimal - a few poor games and any thoughts of a title challenge are more or less done for anyone.
Such a great season ahead, with the margin for error being ridiculous. If it was a boxing match, You have City and Liverpool that want to knock teams out in the first 3 rounds, Spurs and Chelsea that prefer the middle ones and us who are more 'rope a dop' waiting for teams to run out of steam, and win in the late rounds or on points.....
No doubt in my mind that Liverpool will challenge, the biggest problem they have is their Plan B isn't really one. It's the same plan, just with different personnel. Bigger teams will beat them as they'll just go long and beat the press.
No doubt in my mind that Liverpool will challenge, the biggest problem they have is their Plan B isn't really one. It's the same plan, just with different personnel. Bigger teams will beat them as they'll just go long and beat the press.
I guess that is a good thing long-term.
For sure - Jose' Chelsea did it in 05 and 06. Fergie said he had to change his mentality, especially regarding early fixtures.
The only thing is obviously it will probably have the effect of widening the gap between the top 6 and the rest. It currently has the feel of two leagues anyway.
The only way FSG would ever entertain sacking Klopp next summer would be if:
1) the fan base somehow massively turned against him.
2) we had a catastrophic season and finished outside of the top four (which would massively influence point one).
Neither is linked to challenging for the title. But hey, Random Task and The Religion said so on Redcafe!
Definitely agree re stability. I don’t think it helps either of our clubs if we’re changing managers every couple of seasons.
Four years without a trophy after spending hundreds of millions. No consequences for failure. Interesting.
If Huddersfield are given 175m you'd also say they have to challenge City after they spend it?
Also, if you spend 200m, of which 130m is for selling Pogba, would you say you have to challenge then?
We wouldn't spend that huge amounts if we didn't sell our (arguably) best player this winter.
City's squad is significantly better even after we spent the money. It was all there for you to see today. You can pass them in a cup competition if you are relatively good, but on the long run - no one is getting close to them unless they have a massive meltdown mid season and some other team constantly overachieves at the same time.
How much do yo think United has to spend to get first XI and bench of City's quality given your current squad? I'd say you need new fullbacks, one new top CB, one more quality CM, primary and backup RW and a backup striker. In today's market it would probably be ~400m, and I'm being generous here. So it's two windows spending like us, but without selling your players. And it suggests that City does not reinforce meanwhile.
And even after our spending a lot on here think United's current squad is better than ours. Which leads us to a conclusion that even after our spending finishing ahead of City in the league would be an overachievement, which cannot be "demanded".
Also, want a truly sad thing for a change? A United fan bragging to Liverpool fan about finishing second. You can find lots of those in various threads these days. Times they are a changin'...
When we were winning league after league under Fergie, were Liverpool fans really this defeatist?
"Oh, well, we can't be expected to finish ahead of United, they're really good".
Don't recall that kind of attitude.
"Oh, well, we can't be expected to finish ahead of United, they're really good".
Don't recall that kind of attitude.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think net spend is flawed too, for example it doesn't take into account player swaps/and or disproportionately high wages on free agents (Sanchez), or the market price inflation in recent years. Gross spend is an even much worse metric though. Albeit I think Pep and Klopp did much better on the market, I do think Mou has been unfairly criticized. None of his buys have been overperforming, but there were not that many duds that people can really say that it has just been bad business by him really. I just don't think it's an accomplishment to simply "have a better squad" after spending that kind of money though, that's all.
The point was you, or another poster, said he'd never managed a heavyweight? He has.
TBH, Dortmund at the time when he took over was comparable to Newcastle or Everton today. We (Bayern) were like current Manchester City league wise. It surely wasn't him alone, they hit the jackpot on a lot of player transfers back then but he played by far the most relevant part in making Dortmund a Top 10 European team again.
Klopp is an annoying bellend and I wouldn't want him near our club because of the bullsh*t he spew about us (same stuff he is currently doing in Liverpool), but you have to stay objective sometimes.
No, of course not. How did you arrive at the conclusion that a Huddersfield team who barely escaped relegation last season are equally comparable to a Liverpool team who reached the CL final?
So you're telling me that Klopp spent all that money in the summer simply to attain a bog-standard top 4 finish? He could have achieved that goal without spending a single penny. I think there is a divide between Liverpool fans and the owners of their club in terms of expectations. The Liverpool board will be expecting a great deal more than a top 4 finish given the events of the summer.
Liverpool fans.
Priceless.
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I don't think I said it's an accomplishment but it's a fact critics need to remember. JM has done plenty of good things, more than Klopp has a Liverpool thus far, which get overlooked solely based on style of play and subjective views on him as a person.
United were a laughing stock under Moyes and LvG. We have now got back in the top four, improved the squad, and had our highest points and position finish since Sir Alex. We also have a pretty exceptional home record and a 62% win rate. 121 games, 75 wins, 25 draws, 21 defeats.
It's not all as bad as some people like to make out.
Dortmund was not a heavyweight when he started coaching them. Check out where BVB finished in the late 00s. Please stop making Liverpool supporters look good, by saying uninformed crap.
Yeah, but he needs to smile more. Don't omit the important stuff.
Not quite as over the top as you make out..
We have just signed a new full back so willing to see how he performs. By all accounts he may be similar to your own TAA.
Our midfield is sorted. Fred, Matic, Pogba, as a starting trio with Pereria, Fellaini, Herrera as back up is pretty strong in my opinion.
A back up CF would be useful but not essential given that Martial, Rashford and Sanchez can all play the role. Liverpool have far less options in reserve for example.
I would say a world class centre half, new full back and a classic right winger would do it. That said I do think there are young players already at the club who can perform better, for instance Shaw, Martial, Rashford, which would prevent the need in spending in certain areas.
Sorry I thought they had won 6 league titles and the European cup. My mistake
While I don't think I'd agree on the "better than Klopp" part, I do think Mou hasn't been doing badly, too. I just think that your fans see that Klopp hasn't done much worse in the league and better in Europe while spending much less and having a worse squad (until this year), and Pep being so far ahead of you guys and judge Mou a bit unfairly, that's all.
I don't think that Mou staying at your club is a good idea though, unless he somehow manages to win a major trophy this year. Not because of the results and his work, but moreso beause I have the impression that the majority of your fans, as well as your board and even your players do not seem to completely stand behind him anymore. Sometimes a world class manager just simply doesn't fit a club.
Using your train of thought that past achievement indicate whether a club is currently a heavyweight would mean Nottinham Forest and Aston Villa should challenge for the title. Sounds really smart.
Final table when Klopp took over. Heavyweight and a perfect situation to succeed.
I dont really get the evaluation of klopps time with us so far and the constant posts about moneys hes spent. We can only evaluate him on what's happened.. and our spending before this preseason has been pretty conservative. Fairly sure if you look at our incomings v outgoings we're one of the lowest in the epl.
Giving all of that I dont see how you can objectively say klopp hasnt been a success. He has his shortcomings for sure, but overall hes completely changed the way we play and gotten the club in the right direction.
Should we be battling for 3rd and knocked out of the CL early in 9 months i think klopp and liverpool should rightly be scrutinized. But as of right now hes really done as well as could be expected imo
Giving all of that I dont see how you can objectively say klopp hasnt been a success. He has his shortcomings for sure, but overall hes completely changed the way we play and gotten the club in the right direction.
Should we be battling for 3rd and knocked out of the CL early in 9 months i think klopp and liverpool should rightly be scrutinized. But as of right now hes really done as well as could be expected imo
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the most vocal cry babies here. They don't speak for all of us. Mourinho still has alot of support with the genuine fan who can appreciate the task at hand and just how we have started dragging ourselves back up post Sir Alex. Some have unrealistic expectations. This will exist in your own fanbase for instance.
With regards to money Klopp has spent a fortune and broken the world record fees on both goalkeepers and defenders in recent months. This image of him being a pauper really needs to stop.
Using your train of thought that past achievement indicate whether a club is currently a heavyweight would mean Nottinham Forest and Aston Villa should challenge for the title. Sounds really smart.
Final table when Klopp took over. Heavyweight and a perfect situation to succeed.
I take it LFC are not a heavyweight either then?
Good post
Compare BVB's spending and league position to Liverpool's. Not doing your homework.
You have a 2006 joined so you should be aware of BVB's status in the late 00s.
I don’t think we have been for a while. Benitez bridged the gap but we fell back down again.
I'm not sure where you're going with this but it's getting tedious.
Dortmund are a footballing heavyweight in my opinion. I don't need to do homework to establish that.
Whilst Klopp was there they were still the second biggest club in Germany and has solid financial backing.
Dortmund weren't even talked about in the late 00's like they are now. It was the boom of Wolfsburg, Schalke head to head with Bayern, even Stuttgart & Bremen were good teams back then.
Sums it up perfectly and also explains why SAF got out at the right time. What we desperately need now is continuity in management to oversee the rebuild. Changing managers every year or so will not achieve that. Love him or hate him I hope that Jose is the man to do that. Just have a feeling that he truly sees this as his long term project and wants to stick with it for more than his normal 2-3 years. But, the Board need to back his judgement imo. Will be very difficult to replace if not given a fair chance. In any trade if a person says I need certain tools to do a job, and you don’t provide them, it’s unreasonable to sack them if they mess up.
No, they were not.
BVB was close to bankruptcy in 2005 and finished 7th , 7th, 9th, 13th in the seasons before Klopp started. Transfer fee spending wise they were 4th, 8th, 10th, 4th, 5th, 2th, 1st during Klopp's years there. They won the Bundesliga in the bolded seasons.
https://www.transfermarkt.de/transf...&nat=&pos=&altersklasse=&w_s=&leihe=&intern=0
Between 08/09 (Klopp's 1st season) and 10/11 (1st title) they spend about as much as Werder Bremen and Borussia Mönchengladbach. The bigger transfers and solid financial backing came in his last years.
Or three years in charge of a previously 7th placed side whom had finished in the top four once since 2009, transforming them into a team who now plays in the CL and has a vastly improved squad.
The fact that so many posters in this thread believe that LFC should be contending for the title is testament to the job Klopp has done. Even when he came in, many would dismiss the prospect of us even finishing fourth.
I'd call it quiet optimism. No LFC fan is shouting from the rooftops that we'll win the league, but at the same time we're pleased to be building a pretty fantastic side. Silverware will come in time.
Revisionism on Klopp's achievements by some here is akin to some on RAWK claiming Mourinho was lucky at Inter and only did what he did at Chelsea due to money - irrational, and very childish.
Given the gulf in spending power between Dortmund and Bayern, and where Dortmund were before Klopp took over, you'd have to be either deranged or ridiculously biased to claim he didn't do a great job. Yes he lost some finals. Lets see, guy spent the square total of feck all and took a team to multiple league titles and a CL Final. That's a very, very big deal, as they had a pretty tricky route to the final as well. There's been a trillion posts on here sympathising with Mourinho and his lack of spending compared to City. The difference between Bayern and Dortmund was much bigger.
Its unfair to expect Mourinho to win the league cause Pep inherited the better squad and spent more. Same applies to Klopp. At Dortmund, Klopp inherited a way worse squad than what Bayern had, spent a pittance compared to them, and won 2 league titles. Lets not downplay it - the Klopp threads of old here were full of admiration. Now he's Liverpool manager and suddenly he's unbearable and a fraud. Makes sense.
Klopp has done well at Liverpool, his team was supposed to be nowhere near the final. As of last year, Mourinho had outspent Klopp by a big margin, and Klopp then lost his best player midway through the year, and you added Sanchez. Mourinho has brought silverware and finished second last year, I'd say given resources till this year, both did a pretty good job, with Klopp performing a bit above par, and Jose about par. Now, both should be looking at a reasonable title challenge. 400 million invested by both.
Lets see where this season ends up - and lets not shift the goalposts. The spending under both is pretty much neck and neck since they took over at their respective clubs. Net spend, wages etc Mourinho has had more resources - yes, Klopp spent more this summer, but Mourinho spent more the last 2.
Both are top managers - those discrediting either are just being insanely childish. Both are 2 of the top 10 in the world without a doubt.
Given the gulf in spending power between Dortmund and Bayern, and where Dortmund were before Klopp took over, you'd have to be either deranged or ridiculously biased to claim he didn't do a great job. Yes he lost some finals. Lets see, guy spent the square total of feck all and took a team to multiple league titles and a CL Final. That's a very, very big deal, as they had a pretty tricky route to the final as well. There's been a trillion posts on here sympathising with Mourinho and his lack of spending compared to City. The difference between Bayern and Dortmund was much bigger.
Its unfair to expect Mourinho to win the league cause Pep inherited the better squad and spent more. Same applies to Klopp. At Dortmund, Klopp inherited a way worse squad than what Bayern had, spent a pittance compared to them, and won 2 league titles. Lets not downplay it - the Klopp threads of old here were full of admiration. Now he's Liverpool manager and suddenly he's unbearable and a fraud. Makes sense.
Klopp has done well at Liverpool, his team was supposed to be nowhere near the final. As of last year, Mourinho had outspent Klopp by a big margin, and Klopp then lost his best player midway through the year, and you added Sanchez. Mourinho has brought silverware and finished second last year, I'd say given resources till this year, both did a pretty good job, with Klopp performing a bit above par, and Jose about par. Now, both should be looking at a reasonable title challenge. 400 million invested by both.
Lets see where this season ends up - and lets not shift the goalposts. The spending under both is pretty much neck and neck since they took over at their respective clubs. Net spend, wages etc Mourinho has had more resources - yes, Klopp spent more this summer, but Mourinho spent more the last 2.
Both are top managers - those discrediting either are just being insanely childish. Both are 2 of the top 10 in the world without a doubt.
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How many years are you prepared to wait, out of interest? Four? Five?
And we'll pretend Rodgers out performing Klopp never happened.
The same thing was said of Houllier, Rafa and Brenda during their managerial careers with Liverpool, each of them failed to deliver on their promises. Why should it be any different under Klopp? Beware of False Prophets as they say.
Why can't it be this year that Liverpool decide to end 3 decades of pain and misery? It's always next year.
Longer you go without trophies the more your top players will leave
Already coutinho Suarez sterling left after super seasons in recent times
Salah and mane will be next unless you start winning something
Why are they so happy to concede that City (a team they pummel like its their job) are so much better? Still waiting for that to be addressed.
Which it was. How many players rejected us to join Chelsea back then due to higher wages offered? He would do jack shit without the money. Just look at how he's complaining when he doesn't/ can't get what he wants.
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...over-150m-transfer-spend-and-brands-FFP-wrong
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...n-any-other-manager-in-the-last-10418317.html
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Mourinho spent 147 million last summer. Spent over 150 million the summer before His spending wasn't financed by selling his best player, and he got a world class player on a free on massive wages in the middle of the season last year.
How come Jose didn't win the title last season then? Or the year before? How is Klopp expected to win the league this season what Mourinho wasn't last year?
Amazing logic in that post. I see lots of United fans saying this. Whatever you think is expected of Klopp, still more should be expected of Mourinho who has spent more net, has got to bring in world class player(s) on frees. At worst he should match what Klopp does this year. Lets see what happens.
They have both now spent 400 million. Mourinho has spent way more in net, too (and yes it matters, imagine you losing De Gea for 100 million and spending 80 million to replace him....gross spend goes up in a big way, but your team doesn't improve).
Both should be expected to clear 85 points and close the gap to City. Neither can be expected to win the league. Pep inherited the better squad and has comfortably outspent them both.
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