Liverpool - 2017/18

[Thisistheone]

Are domestic cups a platform for future success? Yes, for ambitious clubs trying to go somewhere.

Mourinho always sets out to win a cup in his first season at all the clubs he's been at, with his famous 2nd season league win in mind.
Ok City have stopped him this time but it's clearly something he believes in.

Sir Alex always targetted cups as a platform. He says in his books how a cup win can lift the entire club.

While miles away from Chelsea in the league and in the middle of building a new side, he won the FA cup and the League cup. Giving the likes of Rooney, Ronaldo, Fletcher a taste of success & the squad as a whole the belief that they could push on.

Before the first PL title in '92 he won the league cup the season before and had an FA cup win in the bag.

At Aberdeen Fergie won the cup the season before winning the first league title.

If the most successful manager of them all thinks cups can be a platform, then its hard to disagree with it.

 

[haram]

Liverpool fans dont get it, they’ve been blinded.

The reason you have won nothing is because of Klopp.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Well talk about goal post shifting ! The debate is about whether or not domestic cups are a platform for further success and you now attempting deflection since the cold hard facts of FAC/LC final participation has swung that argument decisively against you.

You have neatly avoided all the facts I gave you about the current (recent) lack of quality of the FAC/LC competitions and also that no team has used them as a platform for PL/CL success, which is what certain posters here were suggesting.

And well done again in your attempt to pervert the comments on how the EL has been more useful to promote all those qualities you listed. Incidentally participation in the CL would have the same benefits whether actually challenging to win it or not.

You are such a straw-man disciple. Stick to the principle of the debate (does the FAC / LC provide a platform for non-successful clubs to achieve success in the PL/CL) or don't bother.

It’s obvious that winning any of the 4 tournaments you enter each year can have a positive impact on your ability to win other competitions.

I’m not even sure why it’s up for debate. Obviously winning some is better experience than others. But that doesn’t mean that closing a domestic cup competition is irrelevant or not conducive to replicating this in wider competition.

The debate started because Liverpool fans were trying to claim that their focus on top 4 is the excuse for their failure. It’s too cowardly an argument for me, and too easy a get out for a decade of failure.

Then you’ve been trying to argue there’s no correlation between cup success and league/CL success which is factually incorrect. There’s a clear and direct correlation.

That’s a decentpost from @Thisistheone above. If Ferguson and Mourinho believe it, then I’ll take their word over some random Liverpool fan in Shanghai who spends his life on a Man United forum.

 

[Alex99]

Circumstances and context change. Back then, LFC were an established top four club, in a four club league. Since 2009, we've effectively been in the wilderness and Spurs and City have made that into a top six. Klopp came into a side which finished 7th behind West Ham and was losing 6-1 to Stoke.

The priority is to re-establish ourselves at the top end of the table and in the CL. A cup isn't a barometer with which you can measure that kind of progress, so it's not a priority for Liverpool right now. We might not have won anything yet but it's clear we've undoubtedly been on an upward trajectory under Klopp. That's why he has such strong support.

This is a point I've made multiple times. No team bar City can call themselves an established top 4 club, because all of the top 6 aside from City have missed out on the top 4 at least once in the last five years, and even City only managed 4th on goal difference a couple of years ago. There is no establishing yourselves in the top 4 unless you are actively mounting some sort of challenge for the league every season, because otherwise you're in the same dogfight for the CL places as the other top 6 teams not challenging. How exactly do you propose to establish yourselves at the top end of the table (I'd argue you are very much an established top 6 side, but the real meaning here is top 4) if you are not even challenging for the silverware that distinguishes the top end sides from the others?

I'd agree you were on an upward trajectory and might still be, it's too soon to tell, but with the talk of finishing 4th and not winning anything season after season I'd argue that would very much count as stagnation if you weren't to go anywhere with it in the next few seasons. You finished 8th in his first season, 4th last season, and could finish anywhere from 2nd to 5th this season (with 2nd to 4th meaning exactly the same given how far ahead City are and the complete lack of any challenge from anyone). So let's say you finish 2nd to 4th and don't win the CL, which seems a reasonable prediction for your season, that isn't really concrete progress from last season, so what are the expectations next season? A league challenge? The Champions League? Or is it once again to finish in the top 4 and not win anything? You've finished 4th now, so surely the next logical step is to finish 4th and try and get your hands on one of the domestic cups?

It's actually hilarious that Alex99 of all people explained it to you perfectly above.

Clubs winning domestic trophies usually do so because they are good enough to challenge in the PL and CL, winning those trophies isn't creating a basis for a run at the CL / PL though for teams that haven't been for some time, and Arsenal aren't the outlier, it's rather perverse to right them off in that way since they are the modern day proof.

You've just twisted my point here. My point is that Liverpool are not good enough to win these trophies, despite your fan base's repeated assertions that you are, it's just that you're concentrating on other things. The same goes for Spurs. All the tools are there in terms of the respective quality in each side, but there is a lack of winning mentality there.

As for your assertion that cups are not a platform for success elsewhere, United's period of dominance started with 3 cup wins. Chelsea won the League Cup before any league titles. City won the FA Cup before a league title. As you've had pointed out to you, Ferguson enjoyed cup success at Aberdeen before winning a league title there. Mourinho enjoyed cup success at Real Madrid (their first silverware for three seasons) before he won the league with them. Obviously teams win league titles without having first won cups, and teams win cups without getting near league titles, but it's a pretty well established school of thought in football that winning cup competitions sets your squad up well to go on to bigger and better things afterwards. Obviously you have to be at least nearly there, which I'd say all of the current top 6 are, but it's

Arsenal are very much an outlier. Their recent, relative dominance of the FA Cup has papered over the very large cracks that have formed over the past 10 years, and those cracks have formed through not winning or challenging for anything for those 10 years, instead accepting 4th as a success year after year.

I'm not even sure you understand what point you're trying to make regarding the FA Cup and League Cup finalists either. Of course there have been a scattering of lower quality teams getting to finals, but in general, the trend is that the top teams are there, and when they're there, they tend to win it.

2007/08 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Portsmouth v Cardiff / League Cup: Tottenham v Chelsea
2008/09 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Chelsea v Everton / League Cup: Manchester United v Tottenham
2009/10 - League: Chelsea / FA Cup: Chelsea v Portsmouth / League Cup: Manchester United v Aston Villa
2010/11 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Manchester City v Stoke / League Cup: Birmingham v Arsenal
2011/12 - League: Manchester City / FA Cup: Chelsea v Liverpool / League Cup: Liverpool v Cardiff
2012/13 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Wigan v Manchester City / League Cup: Swansea v Bradford
2013/14 - League: Manchester City / FA Cup: Arsenal v Hull / League Cup: Manchester City v Sunderland
2014/15 - League: Chelsea / FA Cup: Arsenal v Aston Villa / League Cup: Chelsea v Tottenham
2015/16 - League: Leicester / FA Cup: Manchester United v Crystal Palace / League Cup: Manchester City v Liverpool
2016/17 - League: Chelsea / FA Cup: Arsenal v Manchester City / League Cup: Manchester United v Southampton

Chelsea reached the LC final in 2008 (and the CL final), won the FA Cup in 2009, then won the league and FA Cup in 2010. Manchester United won the league and LC in 2009, the LC in 2010, then the league again in 2011. Manchester City won the FA Cup in 2011, the league in 2012, reached the FA Cup final in 2013, then won the league and LC in 2014. Chelsea won the league and LC in 2015. Manchester City won the LC in 2016, reached the FA Cup final in 2017, and look very much set to win the league in 2018.

Outside of league titles, you've got Spurs winning the LC in 2008 and finishing 11th, reaching the final again in 2009 and finishing 8th, then finishing in the top 4 for the first time in an age in 2010, something they've established themselves as firm contenders for ever since. United finished 7th in 2014, scraped 4th in 2015, won the FA Cup in 2016 but finished 5th, won the LC and EL in 2017, and now sit 2nd in 2018.

There are very clear patterns, even in the last 10 years when the cup competitions have taken something of a backseat, where a team has won, or in some cases just reached the final of a competition, and kicked on in the season or two that followed. Even Liverpool fit that to a certain degree. 7th in 2015, 8th but two finals in 2016, 4th in 2017. The difference is, like Spurs now and Arsenal before them, without winning anything alongside CL qualification, you are not legitimised. Arsenal are quite literally the only team to win successive cups/reach successive finals and see their league positions worsen.

I’m only asking because winning the FA Cup wasn’t enough to save Van Gaal and a lot of United fans were glad to see the back of him.

Winning a trophy didn’t seem to matter much then and I’m wondering why?

Well it's not that black and white, is it?

You've all said you're happy for Klopp to not win anything as long as you see signs of progress in the league and evidence of an upward trajectory. We won something, yes, but it was clear as day that he was absolutely not the right man to lead us back to the top, or to win things with any consistency, and if anything, we were very much in danger of suffering a similar decline/stagnation that Moyes brought with him.

Trophies are of course not the only barometer for success, because as we know, shocks can happen in an isolated season and an unexpected team can end up lifting silverware. However, in the bigger picture, winning trophies on a semi-regular basis is generally an indication that things are going to plan, and that plan will often include finishing at the top end of the league table. As I've said, if you're good enough (and this includes the right mentality), you'll win things. If you're winning things, you're likely to be finishing round about where you want to in the league.

We've seen with Arsenal, and dare I say Liverpool, that not winning things but accepting a respectable league finish as success year after year ultimately bites you in the arse. Liverpool dropped out of the top 4 having not won anything for 4 years in 2010, and you can't even say now that you're back with any regularity; maybe in a couple of seasons time if you finish there this year and the next as well. Arsenal have papered over some ever-growing cracks with a few FA Cup wins, but ended up dropping out of the top 4 last season having gone near 10 years without even really competing for a single piece of a silverware (league cup defeat to Birmingham not included), and bar a miracle are missing out again this season.

 

[Newstar]

Just chip in on this one, being a Liverpool fan and all!

I think it's important to remember the context of it all here, I think as long as you are seeing steady progression season on season then winning a domestic cup isn't the be all and end all.

Couple of examples of how winning domestic cups, not winning domestic cups can come with different points of view.

1. Liverpool lost two cup finals the season Klopp took over, he took Liverpool to a European final for the first time since 2007, and a domestic cup final for the first time since 2012. Lost both, one on penalties against Man City. So even without winning a trophy I think supporters felt there was progression. He followed it up finishing top 4, and if Liverpool finish top 4 this season it'll be the first time in 10 years they have done so in back to back seasons. So again over the course of his 3 years (well 2 and 3/4) in charge of Liverpool I think we have seen an improvement in Liverpool, despite obviously not winning a trophy.

2. IF Liverpool had won both finals in his first season, then finished 5th and 5th, with say a league cup win then I think you'd call it a step back rather than a step forward and the pressure would be right on Klopp.

3. The reason Arsenal's domestic wins seemed to mean so little in the grand scheme of things (that is how it has been portrayed anyway), is that they had finished every season in the Champions League places every season. They had stagnated, and it's more clear now with hindsight that the domestic cups where not progression for Arsenal, it needed to be a real title challenge or a European trophy.

4. Looking at the great managers over the years in the Prem, I do believe winning trophies breeds success. Lots of great managers followed up a domestic trophy with a league title. But in most cases, they didn't win a league title because they won a domestic trophy, they won the domestic trophies because they were the best in the league (look at mourinho's first season at Chelsea for example).

There are a lot of different arguments to be made with regards to this, everything has mitigating circumstances, as a Liverpool supporter I really want to see us win something, anything, but if two years ago you offered me 5th and 5th with a league cup and an FA Cup, or top 4 and top 4 then I'd take the later simply because we haven't consistently been in Europe, and to improve we really need to be. That answer may (or may not) change if we had finished top 4 for five season on the run without silverware.

Right now I think Klopp has gone a good job, not perfect by any means, in a league getting tougher by the year. But it won't be long before questions will be asked with regards to silverware, it won't be this season if we make the Champions League places, because as I say to finish top 4 back to back seasons for the first time in 10 years is something of an achievement for Liverpool right now.

I suppose you'd only appreciate it once (if) it happened to your club - which I imagine that's why people would want to belittle this and say Liverpool would of been better winning a domestic double and finishing 5th or whatever. It shows progression from when Klopp took over, but am not sure next season just finishing 4th will be enough, it's going to be a big season for Klopp at Liverpool, there needs to be a 'next' step. I think the fans are going to expect us to finally start winning trophies along with at least a top 4 finish (or you know, being liverpool everyone will start the season looking at the title, I know I will!!! ha).

Anyway, a trophy could happen this season still, it's only a 10/1 shot!!!

 

[Rafateria]

You've just twisted my point here. My point is that Liverpool are not good enough to win these trophies, despite your fan base's repeated assertions that you are, it's just that you're concentrating on other things. The same goes for Spurs. All the tools are there in terms of the respective quality in each side, but there is a lack of winning mentality there.

As for your assertion that cups are not a platform for success elsewhere, United's period of dominance started with 3 cup wins. Chelsea won the League Cup before any league titles. City won the FA Cup before a league title. As you've had pointed out to you, Ferguson enjoyed cup success at Aberdeen before winning a league title there. Mourinho enjoyed cup success at Real Madrid (their first silverware for three seasons) before he won the league with them. Obviously teams win league titles without having first won cups, and teams win cups without getting near league titles, but it's a pretty well established school of thought in football that winning cup competitions sets your squad up well to go on to bigger and better things afterwards. Obviously you have to be at least nearly there, which I'd say all of the current top 6 are, but it's

Arsenal are very much an outlier. Their recent, relative dominance of the FA Cup has papered over the very large cracks that have formed over the past 10 years, and those cracks have formed through not winning or challenging for anything for those 10 years, instead accepting 4th as a success year after year.

I'm not even sure you understand what point you're trying to make regarding the FA Cup and League Cup finalists either. Of course there have been a scattering of lower quality teams getting to finals, but in general, the trend is that the top teams are there, and when they're there, they tend to win it.

2007/08 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Portsmouth v Cardiff / League Cup: Tottenham v Chelsea
2008/09 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Chelsea v Everton / League Cup: Manchester United v Tottenham
2009/10 - League: Chelsea / FA Cup: Chelsea v Portsmouth / League Cup: Manchester United v Aston Villa
2010/11 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Manchester City v Stoke / League Cup: Birmingham v Arsenal
2011/12 - League: Manchester City / FA Cup: Chelsea v Liverpool / League Cup: Liverpool v Cardiff
2012/13 - League: Manchester United / FA Cup: Wigan v Manchester City / League Cup: Swansea v Bradford
2013/14 - League: Manchester City / FA Cup: Arsenal v Hull / League Cup: Manchester City v Sunderland
2014/15 - League: Chelsea / FA Cup: Arsenal v Aston Villa / League Cup: Chelsea v Tottenham
2015/16 - League: Leicester / FA Cup: Manchester United v Crystal Palace / League Cup: Manchester City v Liverpool
2016/17 - League: Chelsea / FA Cup: Arsenal v Manchester City / League Cup: Manchester United v Southampton

Chelsea reached the LC final in 2008 (and the CL final), won the FA Cup in 2009, then won the league and FA Cup in 2010. Manchester United won the league and LC in 2009, the LC in 2010, then the league again in 2011. Manchester City won the FA Cup in 2011, the league in 2012, reached the FA Cup final in 2013, then won the league and LC in 2014. Chelsea won the league and LC in 2015. Manchester City won the LC in 2016, reached the FA Cup final in 2017, and look very much set to win the league in 2018.

Outside of league titles, you've got Spurs winning the LC in 2008 and finishing 11th, reaching the final again in 2009 and finishing 8th, then finishing in the top 4 for the first time in an age in 2010, something they've established themselves as firm contenders for ever since. United finished 7th in 2014, scraped 4th in 2015, won the FA Cup in 2016 but finished 5th, won the LC and EL in 2017, and now sit 2nd in 2018.

There are very clear patterns, even in the last 10 years when the cup competitions have taken something of a backseat, where a team has won, or in some cases just reached the final of a competition, and kicked on in the season or two that followed. Even Liverpool fit that to a certain degree. 7th in 2015, 8th but two finals in 2016, 4th in 2017. The difference is, like Spurs now and Arsenal before them, without winning anything alongside CL qualification, you are not legitimised. Arsenal are quite literally the only team to win successive cups/reach successive finals and see their league positions worsen.

An outlier is something that happens once in disregard to what one can consider the norm. Winning the FAC three times in 4 years and yet still not performing in the CL/PL is not an outlier, it's now the norm and a clear indication that the theory of FAC/LC being a platform for PL/CL success is flawed. You and Kraftwerker continue to claim it's an outlier simply because to accept it for what it is means you have no argument to support your theory.

One of the reasons I dismissed your earlier dissertation was a quick scan showed multiple references to past eras. Whilst the dismissal of the LC, by top PL teams, as a trophy worth committing resources to winning has been going on for a while the same obvious back-burning of the (early rounds at least) of the FAC is a more recent trend (of course in later rounds when winning it becomes a real possibility clubs put out stronger teams). Quite simply where we are at today cannot be compared to past eras since the pace of change has been dramatic, of course money is the reason for this so you can trace this 'modern era', and the marginalising of the FAC as a major cup, to the massive increases in PL/CL prize money.

What does your listing of the results above show (since I brought the listing up I think I know who won what don't you think) ? It just emphasises what I said - that teams at the top are likely to win them because of the strength of the squads/teams, clearly you have missed the part where I said that the results do not show anywhere where a team has used them as a platform for CL/PL success. It's not a difficult premise to comprehend so reverting to

As for your 'Liverpool are not good enough to win these trophies' assertion. That is clearly biased United fan bollocks, there are multiple reasons that hasn't happened recently but not being good enough is just tripe .. I wonder how Wigan managed it in the FAC (or Hull and Palace took PL teams to ET) or Swansea won the LC, or Bradford made the final. As I said to both you and Kraftwerker the quality of the teams winning or making finals in both the FAC and LC blows your arguments away, if it didn't none of those teams could have made finals/won them.

 

[Klopper76]

@Alex99 To be clear, if we’re sitting here in two years and Liverpool under Klopp have finished in the top four consistently without winning anything, I’ll agree with you that Klopp isn’t taking us forward any more.

Right now for a club that has managed one top four finish since 2009 before last season, qualifying for the Champions League for the second year in a row seems like a step forward.

It’s disappointing that we’ve not won anything yet but as you’ve pointed out in a previous post, there’s six very strong clubs competing for these domestic trophies, and several other clubs thrown into the mix for the two European cups.

I like to think that the club is moving forward under Klopp so that in a couple of years we can win a few domestic cups here and there. I don’t think it’s an overnight fix for a club like Liverpool though, unless you get a one off like 13/14.

 

[Newstar]

Just double checked and Fergie actually lost that final at Aberdeen so apologies about that, but the point still stands, he went all the way for a cup win with the idea that it could be a catalyst.

Ferguson certainly believed success breeds success, even when not the dominant force in a league.

Brian Clough also did the same at both Derby and Forest. Cup wins followed by a league title.

Yep, and I imagine Klopp feels the same too. Two finals, one semi final and one 1/4 final (maybe further?!) in 3 seasons would suggest he doesn't take cups lightly. And maybe the experience gained during these cup runs have helped us progress in the league?

 

[Thisistheone]

As for your assertion that cups are not a platform for success elsewhere, United's period of dominance started with 3 cup wins. Chelsea won the League Cup before any league titles. City won the FA Cup before a league title. As you've had pointed out to you, Ferguson enjoyed cup success at Aberdeen before winning a league title there. Mourinho enjoyed cup success at Real Madrid (their first silverware for three seasons) before he won the league with them.

Good shout, forgot about Mancini. The Fa Cup win was massive for that City squad going forward.

 

[Alex99]

An outlier is something that happens once in disregard to what one can consider the norm. Winning the FAC three times in 4 years and yet still not performing in the CL/PL is not an outlier, it's now the norm and a clear indication that the theory of FAC/LC being a platform for PL/CL success is flawed. You and Kraftwerker continue to claim it's an outlier simply because to accept it for what it is means you have no argument to support your theory.

One of the reasons I dismissed your earlier dissertation was a quick scan showed multiple references to past eras. Whilst the dismissal of the LC, by top PL teams, as a trophy worth committing resources to winning has been going on for a while the same obvious back-burning of the (early rounds at least) of the FAC is a more recent trend (of course in later rounds when winning it becomes a real possibility clubs put out stronger teams). Quite simply where we are at today cannot be compared to past eras since the pace of change has been dramatic, of course money is the reason for this so you can trace this 'modern era', and the marginalising of the FAC as a major cup, to the massive increases in PL/CL prize money.

What does your listing of the results above show (since I brought the listing up I think I know who won what don't you think) ? It just emphasises what I said - that teams at the top are likely to win them because of the strength of the squads/teams, clearly you have missed the part where I said that the results do not show anywhere where a team has used them as a platform for CL/PL success. It's not a difficult premise to comprehend so reverting to

As for your 'Liverpool are not good enough to win these trophies' assertion. That is clearly biased United fan bollocks, there are multiple reasons that hasn't happened recently but not being good enough is just tripe .. I wonder how Wigan managed it in the FAC (or Hull and Palace took PL teams to ET) or Swansea won the LC, or Bradford made the final. As I said to both you and Kraftwerker the quality of the teams winning or making finals in both the FAC and LC blows your arguments away, if it didn't none of those teams could have made finals/won them.

You don't know what an outlier is.

An outlier is an example outside of the norm; not necessarily a one off instance. Arsenal are that example. The trend, even with Liverpool to a degree, is that cup 'success' correlates with improvement in league form/position. We have seen this happen with Spurs, United, Chelsea and City over the last 10 years, where winning a cup/appearing in a cup final preceded an upturn in league fortune, which has included winning league titles, and even CLs for some of the teams

I agree with you that the top teams are likely to win the cups because their teams are stronger, hence their status as a top teams. Where I think we disagree is with the teams that haven't won anything being actual top teams anyway. At some point you have to stamp your mark, and that involves winning a couple of trophies, otherwise you're Arsenal circa 2007-2016, a team decidedly not a top team.

We've already had the 'good enough' discussion. Are Liverpool good enough to win a trophy? Yes, because any team is good enough to win a trophy. Are Liverpool good enough to win trophies on a semi-regular basis (i.e. one ever two or three seasons) while maintaining league form, current evidence heavily suggests that the answer to that is no. In short, Liverpool are not good enough. The same is true for Spurs. The same is true for Arsenal.

Wigan reaching and winning a final is an outlier. It hadn't happened before, and it hasn't happened since. The same is true for Bradford and Swansea and Birmingham and Villa and Hull and Cardiff and whatever other lower team reached a final or won a cup in the last however many years. The fact that just two of the last twenty finals haven't included at least one of the current established top six (two of twenty one if you include this year's LC final) shows that top teams do actually care about the domestic cups. Additionally, every single season for at least the last eleven (I can't be faffed going back further but it definitely will stretch back further), at least one league winner from either that season, or the two seasons either side, has reached a cup final.

You talking about it being important to ignore the past (some instances the quite recent past) because it doesn't reflect the current climate is just another terrible excuse. The current climate shows that every top 6 side bar City has missed out on the CL at least once in the last five years (and City qualified on goal difference one year). The evidence is there that unless you're challenging for the league title to some degree, top 4 is not a guarantee like it used to be when it was United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool finishing in the top 4 year after year. To acknowledge that you can't always judge the current football climate by the past is fine. To do that but then talk about how it's important to establish yourselves as a top 4 club (without being league contenders), completely ignoring that the current climate shows that to be nigh on impossible, is laughable.

The past is of course not a concrete guarantee of anything, but it is still useful to look at patterns. Yes the LC has been seen as secondary for quite a while, and yes the FA Cup has more recently been seen in a similar light, but the fact remains that more often than not they are being contested by very recent league winners, or teams that go on to win the league within a couple of seasons.

You pick and choose what lines of argument you want to take, happily dismissing whatever evidence comes your way to contradict your take on things, contradicting yourself as you go. You make everything a black and white issue in attempt to distract from the actual points being made and to discredit the arguments brought to you. I see no point in continuing this dialogue with you, because in all honesty, I think you're on the wind-up now.

We might not agree on this, that's fine. I'll just state again that I, and many others, find it completely laughable that finishing 4th year after year without winning anything is in any way a sign of success. It was laughed at when it was Wenger's Arsenal that did it, and it'll be laughed at if that's all Klopp's Liverpool do. That, ultimately, is what all of this has been about. You can have your pretty football, you can have your goal tallies, and your annual CL participation sticker, but it's all coming across as very "Golden Gloves" when you're using it to put Liverpool alongside teams that are actually winning things.

 

[Alex99]

@Alex99 To be clear, if we’re sitting here in two years and Liverpool under Klopp have finished in the top four consistently without winning anything, I’ll agree with you that Klopp isn’t taking us forward any more.

Right now for a club that has managed one top four finish since 2009 before last season, qualifying for the Champions League for the second year in a row seems like a step forward.

It’s disappointing that we’ve not won anything yet but as you’ve pointed out in a previous post, there’s six very strong clubs competing for these domestic trophies, and several other clubs thrown into the mix for the two European cups.

I like to think that the club is moving forward under Klopp so that in a couple of years we can win a few domestic cups here and there. I don’t think it’s an overnight fix for a club like Liverpool though, unless you get a one off like 13/14.

I think that's fair enough, and a far cry from the ramblings and excuse-laden posts made by some of your fellow supporters on here.

 

[Kraftwerker]

An outlier is something that happens once in disregard to what one can consider the norm. Winning the FAC three times in 4 years and yet still not performing in the CL/PL is not an outlier, it's now the norm and a clear indication that the theory of FAC/LC being a platform for PL/CL success is flawed. You and Kraftwerker continue to claim it's an outlier simply because to accept it for what it is means you have no argument to support your theory.

One of the reasons I dismissed your earlier dissertation was a quick scan showed multiple references to past eras. Whilst the dismissal of the LC, by top PL teams, as a trophy worth committing resources to winning has been going on for a while the same obvious back-burning of the (early rounds at least) of the FAC is a more recent trend (of course in later rounds when winning it becomes a real possibility clubs put out stronger teams). Quite simply where we are at today cannot be compared to past eras since the pace of change has been dramatic, of course money is the reason for this so you can trace this 'modern era', and the marginalising of the FAC as a major cup, to the massive increases in PL/CL prize money.

What does your listing of the results above show (since I brought the listing up I think I know who won what don't you think) ? It just emphasises what I said - that teams at the top are likely to win them because of the strength of the squads/teams, clearly you have missed the part where I said that the results do not show anywhere where a team has used them as a platform for CL/PL success. It's not a difficult premise to comprehend so reverting to

As for your 'Liverpool are not good enough to win these trophies' assertion. That is clearly biased United fan bollocks, there are multiple reasons that hasn't happened recently but not being good enough is just tripe .. I wonder how Wigan managed it in the FAC (or Hull and Palace took PL teams to ET) or Swansea won the LC, or Bradford made the final. As I said to both you and Kraftwerker the quality of the teams winning or making finals in both the FAC and LC blows your arguments away, if it didn't none of those teams could have made finals/won them.

What the actual feck?

You have categorically not been good enough to win them, otherwise you would have done.

As for how Wigan managed it, they beat Man City's first team in a cup final at Wembley.

Startling arrogance and lack of self-awareness to just think Liverpool could've done that if they'd been bothered to, or whatever shite it is you're spouting.

 

[Thisistheone]

Yep, and I imagine Klopp feels the same too. Two finals, one semi final and one 1/4 final (maybe further?!) in 3 seasons would suggest he doesn't take cups lightly. And maybe the experience gained during these cup runs have helped us progress in the league?

Deleted the quoted post because I was looking at the wrong competition. Fergie did actually win a cup before the league. Anyway, I'm sure Klopp does believe in cup success being a spring board. But Rafateria doesn't.

 

[Newstar]

Good shout, forgot about Mancini. The Fa Cup win was massive for that City squad going forward.

All depends though, they added to that team Aguero, Dzecko, Clichy and Nasri from the season they won the FA Cup - Aguero got 30 goals in all comps that season, and Dzecko got 19, the year they won the FA Cup their top scorers were 23 & 11.

To point to the FA Cup as being a big reason they won the league the season after would have to totally overlook them finishing 3rd the season before, and then adding to their quality of their squad...

Does winning domestic trophies help? Yes, in some ways.

Does adding Sergio Aguero help more? 100% Yes.

 

[Thisistheone]

All depends though, they added to that team Aguero, Dzecko, Clichy and Nasri from the season they won the FA Cup - Aguero got 30 goals in all comps that season, and Dzecko got 19, the year they won the FA Cup their top scorers were 23 & 11.

To point to the FA Cup as being a big reason they won the league the season after would have to totally overlook them finishing 3rd the season before, and then adding to their quality of their squad...

Does winning domestic trophies help? Yes, in some ways.

Does adding Sergio Aguero help more? 100% Yes.

You can find many quotes from that squad who have said themselves winnin the Cup and beating Utd in the semi-final was a massive mental barrier that they overcame and helped with the belief in winning the title.

Obviously world class strikers like Augero will help massively as well. I'm not denying that.

 

[Alex99]

All depends though, they added to that team Aguero, Dzecko, Clichy and Nasri from the season they won the FA Cup - Aguero got 30 goals in all comps that season, and Dzecko got 19, the year they won the FA Cup their top scorers were 23 & 11.

To point to the FA Cup as being a big reason they won the league the season after would have to totally overlook them finishing 3rd the season before, and then adding to their quality of their squad...

Does winning domestic trophies help? Yes, in some ways.

Does adding Sergio Aguero help more? 100% Yes.

Obviously there's more to it than just winning a cup, and that will include, in large part, improving on the playing staff available. This doesn't disprove anything about how winning a cup is used as a platform for future successes though. Why are you all obsessed with making it a black and white issue when football is clearly not a game of either-or?

 

[Thisistheone]

Yaya Toure explains how 2011 FA Cup success changed Man City forever
The Manchester City midfielder had a key part to play in starting a string of trophies for the Blues

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...all-news/yaya-toure-man-city-wembley-12925500

"It was from there that we started.

"It was important to win trophies because it means something and that was when we started to realise just how important it was to try and lift trophies at the end of the season.

"In Africa we say everything has a beginning and after the FA Cup, we went on to win the league. It is something so special because everything started from the FA Cup.”

 

[Rafateria]

You don't know what an outlier is.

An outlier is an example outside of the norm; not necessarily a one off instance. Arsenal are that example. The trend, even with Liverpool to a degree, is that cup 'success' correlates with improvement in league form/position. We have seen this happen with Spurs, United, Chelsea and City over the last 10 years, where winning a cup/appearing in a cup final preceded an upturn in league fortune, which has included winning league titles, and even CLs for some of the teams

I agree with you that the top teams are likely to win the cups because their teams are stronger, hence their status as a top teams. Where I think we disagree is with the teams that haven't won anything being actual top teams anyway. At some point you have to stamp your mark, and that involves winning a couple of trophies, otherwise you're Arsenal circa 2007-2016, a team decidedly not a top team.

We've already had the 'good enough' discussion. Are Liverpool good enough to win a trophy? Yes, because any team is good enough to win a trophy. Are Liverpool good enough to win trophies on a semi-regular basis (i.e. one ever two or three seasons) while maintaining league form, current evidence heavily suggests that the answer to that is no. In short, Liverpool are not good enough. The same is true for Spurs. The same is true for Arsenal.

Wigan reaching and winning a final is an outlier. It hadn't happened before, and it hasn't happened since. The same is true for Bradford and Swansea and Birmingham and Villa and Hull and Cardiff and whatever other lower team reached a final or won a cup in the last however many years. The fact that just two of the last twenty finals haven't included at least one of the current established top six (two of twenty one if you include this year's LC final) shows that top teams do actually care about the domestic cups. Additionally, every single season for at least the last eleven (I can't be faffed going back further but it definitely will stretch back further), at least one league winner from either that season, or the two seasons either side, has reached a cup final.

You talking about it being important to ignore the past (some instances the quite recent past) because it doesn't reflect the current climate is just another terrible excuse. The current climate shows that every top 6 side bar City has missed out on the CL at least once in the last five years (and City qualified on goal difference one year). The evidence is there that unless you're challenging for the league title to some degree, top 4 is not a guarantee like it used to be when it was United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool finishing in the top 4 year after year. To acknowledge that you can't always judge the current football climate by the past is fine. To do that but then talk about how it's important to establish yourselves as a top 4 club (without being league contenders), completely ignoring that the current climate shows that to be nigh on impossible, is laughable.

The past is of course not a concrete guarantee of anything, but it is still useful to look at patterns. Yes the LC has been seen as secondary for quite a while, and yes the FA Cup has more recently been seen in a similar light, but the fact remains that more often than not they are being contested by very recent league winners, or teams that go on to win the league within a couple of seasons.

You pick and choose what lines of argument you want to take, happily dismissing whatever evidence comes your way to contradict your take on things, contradicting yourself as you go. You make everything a black and white issue in attempt to distract from the actual points being made and to discredit the arguments brought to you. I see no point in continuing this dialogue with you, because in all honesty, I think you're on the wind-up now.

We might not agree on this, that's fine. I'll just state again that I, and many others, find it completely laughable that finishing 4th year after year without winning anything is in any way a sign of success. It was laughed at when it was Wenger's Arsenal that did it, and it'll be laughed at if that's all Klopp's Liverpool do. That, ultimately, is what all of this has been about. You can have your pretty football, you can have your goal tallies, and your annual CL participation sticker, but it's all coming across as very "Golden Gloves" when you're using it to put Liverpool alongside teams that are actually winning things.

Honestly the tangents you go off on are a greater part of why your posts consist of 1,000+ words when to answer the question concisely they could easily be 300 or less.

So let's again clarify what the debate is about : Does the FAC / LC provide a platform for non-successful clubs to achieve success in the PL/CL) ? I am not the whole Liverpool fanbase on here, this is what I have been debating so you and Kraftwerker should stop bringing other points of contention into the discussion. For example your Top 4 or golden Gloves tangents, I was not even discussing this so why mention it at all ? Blatant case of deflection to obfuscate.

Outlier - I know what it is and agree I made a mistake in calling it a one off, however a trend, Arsenal, can not be an outlier in it's true statistical sense (one to be ignored). And then you go onto compound my descriptive error by calling Wigan an outlier because they are a one-off

And I'm glad we are now in agreement on this though (even though you then attempt to shift the goalposts back, now talking about winning trophies once every 2-3 years, another tangent) :
Alex99 : My point is that Liverpool are not good enough to win these trophies (me: meaning FAC/LC) ..
Alex99 : Are Liverpool good enough to win a trophy? Yes ...

I also clearly, and so we are in complete agreement, said that the clubs winning the FAC and LC tend to be those at the top end of the PL, and for a very good reason. Where we disagree is that I believe that has nothing whatsoever to do with using it as a platform for CL/PL success.

As for 'Black & White and dismissing whatever evidence comes your way to contradict your take on things' : do I have to accept your 'evidence' just because you believe it to be that ? It is far from incontrovertible so you are just miffed I disagree with your 'proof' and propose alternatives or give examples to support which no-one has disputed ! As for contradiction ? Show me the contradiction, I've taken the same standpoint from the very beginning and have used good examples to illustrate it, that you discount them because they don't serve your rhetoric seems to me to be a very strong case of the pot calling the kettle.

It's all good though, there are only opinions and this debate could never be definitively proven either way and since clearly neither of us are going to be persuaded of the merits of the counter argument so I'll sign off too. Good night Alex.

 

[Rafateria]

Yaya Toure explains how 2011 FA Cup success changed Man City forever
The Manchester City midfielder had a key part to play in starting a string of trophies for the Blues

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...all-news/yaya-toure-man-city-wembley-12925500

"It was from there that we started.

"It was important to win trophies because it means something and that was when we started to realise just how important it was to try and lift trophies at the end of the season.

"In Africa we say everything has a beginning and after the FA Cup, we went on to win the league. It is something so special because everything started from the FA Cup.”

Did he also mention how important it was to receive expensive birthday gifts ?

And let's add Newstar's comment to your post shall we ? For full disclosure.

All depends though, they added to that team Aguero, Dzecko, Clichy and Nasri from the season they won the FA Cup - Aguero got 30 goals in all comps that season, and Dzecko got 19, the year they won the FA Cup their top scorers were 23 & 11.

To point to the FA Cup as being a big reason they won the league the season after would have to totally overlook them finishing 3rd the season before, and then adding to their quality of their squad...

 

[Rafateria]

What the actual feck?

You have categorically not been good enough to win them, otherwise you would have done.

As for how Wigan managed it, they beat Man City's first team in a cup final at Wembley.

Startling arrogance and lack of self-awareness to just think Liverpool could've done that if they'd been bothered to, or whatever shite it is you're spouting.

What is startling is your total lack of comprehension on the basics of the debate ... you'd best sit this one out since it has clearly confounded you.

 

[Thisistheone]

Did he also mention how important it was to receive expensive birthday gifts ?

And let's add Newstar's comment to your post shall we ? For full disclosure.

All depends though, they added to that team Aguero, Dzecko, Clichy and Nasri from the season they won the FA Cup - Aguero got 30 goals in all comps that season, and Dzecko got 19, the year they won the FA Cup their top scorers were 23 & 11.

To point to the FA Cup as being a big reason they won the league the season after would have to totally overlook them finishing 3rd the season before, and then adding to their quality of their squad...

All I can do is go by what the players and managers themselves have said, shown etc. you know, the ones actually involved. The professionals.

You are stubborn I'll give you that. Fergie could tell you to your face that cup wins mean a great deal for future success and you'd still argue otherwise.

 

[Rafateria]

All I can do is go by what the players and managers themselves have said, shown etc. you know, the ones actually involved. The professionals.

You are stubborn I'll give you that. Fergie could tell you to your face that cup wins mean a great deal for future success and you'd still argue otherwise.

Well lucky he hasn't commented in this thread then ! That said I've clearly mentioned numerous times that I am talking about this modern era and how the face of football, and club's priorities, has changed over the past few years.

 

[Rob]

You United fans need to understand that out of the last 8 seasons, Liverpool have finished in the top 4 only twice. That makes it absolutely imperative that we start building a habit of doing so. We aren't as attractive or wealthy as you and hence don't have the same pulling power. I saw a poster claiming that we are still able to attract stars like Firmino, Mane and Coutinho, but none of them were stars before they came. Keita and Salah arguably were, and I doubt they would've come I if we hadn't qualified for the CL but won an FA Cup instead. And while you may be right that winning things are important for especially young players, I'd argue that playing 10+ games in the CL is more so. I do want trophies, don't get me wrong, but at the moment getting CL is a bigger priority. Like someone said earlier, in a few years time, Klopp will hopefully be able to show a trophy or two on top of regular CL, but right now the most important thing is just to reach the CL.

 

[Kraftwerker]

What is startling is your total lack of comprehension on the basics of the debate ... you'd best sit this one out since it has clearly confounded you.

I don’t know what’s so hard to comprehend about you denying that Liverpool weren’t good enough to win domestic cups.

Of course you weren’t good enough.

Doesn’t matter who you got put out by or at what stage, you just haven’t been good enough to close a tournament out.

Claiming otherwise is pathetic and delusional. And I suspect wouldn’t be supported by any sensible Liverpool fan.

 

[Rafateria]

I don’t know what’s so hard to comprehend about you denying that Liverpool weren’t good enough to win domestic cups.

Of course you weren’t good enough.

Doesn’t matter who you got put out by or at what stage, you just haven’t been good enough to close a tournament out.

Claiming otherwise is pathetic and delusional. And I suspect wouldn’t be supported by any sensible Liverpool fan.

As I said .. you don't seem to have a clue what the debate is about. It most certainly isn't anything to do with what you've written! Go back and read the thread or don't be arsed. I don't give a monkey's either way.

 

[Kraftwerker]

As I said .. you don't seem to have a clue what the debate is about. It most certainly isn't anything to do with what you've written! Go back and read the thread or don't be arsed. I don't give a monkey's either way.

Do tell what this means then:

As for your 'Liverpool are not good enough to win these trophies' assertion. That is clearly biased United fan bollocks, there are multiple reasons that hasn't happened recently but not being good enough is just tripe

Because it reads like the ramblings of an idiot.

If you'd been diddled out of a final by some astonishingly bad refereeing or lost a final having completed obliterated your opponent in all but the score (a la United vs. Arsenal in 2005), I could almost understand, but even still you'd be clutching, especially with the latter.

The fact is you've not even been close to good enough to even get near most finals.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

This is a point I've made multiple times. No team bar City can call themselves an established top 4 club, because all of the top 6 aside from City have missed out on the top 4 at least once in the last five years, and even City only managed 4th on goal difference a couple of years ago. There is no establishing yourselves in the top 4 unless you are actively mounting some sort of challenge for the league every season, because otherwise you're in the same dogfight for the CL places as the other top 6 teams not challenging. How exactly do you propose to establish yourselves at the top end of the table (I'd argue you are very much an established top 6 side, but the real meaning here is top 4) if you are not even challenging for the silverware that distinguishes the top end sides from the others?

You've missed the point. Good performance in the league and CL would establish this Liverpool team as one which can compete at the higher levels, amongst the best sides in England/Europe, certainly much more so than winning an FA cup would. For example, getting to a CL semi final would be invaluable for a squad which is sorely lacking European experience. Finishing second in the league would prove that we're not far off challenging for the title, and would be in a normal season if City hadn't ran away with it.

I'd agree you were on an upward trajectory and might still be, it's too soon to tell, but with the talk of finishing 4th and not winning anything season after season I'd argue that would very much count as stagnation if you weren't to go anywhere with it in the next few seasons. You finished 8th in his first season, 4th last season, and could finish anywhere from 2nd to 5th this season (with 2nd to 4th meaning exactly the same given how far ahead City are and the complete lack of any challenge from anyone). So let's say you finish 2nd to 4th and don't win the CL, which seems a reasonable prediction for your season, that isn't really concrete progress from last season, so what are the expectations next season? A league challenge? The Champions League? Or is it once again to finish in the top 4 and not win anything? You've finished 4th now, so surely the next logical step is to finish 4th and try and get your hands on one of the domestic cups?

So we can agree that Liverpool are on an upward trajectory. Trophies will come hand in hand with that as long as that progression continues. Many would expect a league challenge in the next couple of years.

Also, finishing with more points this season than last, is definitely concrete progress.

I'm not really sure what - amongst all these essays, you're trying to argue here? Is it that Liverpool need to win a league cup before they can be considered to have improved under Klopp? Laughable if so.

 

[Alex99]

You've missed the point. Good performance in the league and CL would establish this Liverpool team as one which can compete at the higher levels, amongst the best sides in England/Europe, certainly much more so than winning an FA cup would. For example, getting to a CL semi final would be invaluable for a squad which is sorely lacking European experience. Finishing second in the league would prove that we're not far off challenging for the title, and would be in a normal season if City hadn't ran away with it.



So we can agree that Liverpool are on an upward trajectory. Trophies will come hand in hand with that as long as that progression continues. Many would expect a league challenge in the next couple of years.

Also, finishing with more points this season than last, is definitely concrete progress.

I'm not really sure what - amongst all these essays, you're trying to argue here? Is it that Liverpool need to win a league cup before they can be considered to have improved under Klopp? Laughable if so.

Arsenal spent a decade finishing in the top 4 and gaining "European experience" in the Champions League in each of those seasons. They reached Champions League semi-finals, and finished 2nd in the league in that time too. What they didn't do, until the very end of that decade, was win anything. They hadn't established themselves as a team that could compete at the higher levels, and they hadn't established themselves amongst the best sides in England or Europe because there was no winning mentality there.

By the time they actually managed to pick up some silverware, it was too little to late. They'd had a decade of pretending the bare minimum expected of them was a success, so when they did finally win the FA Cup in 2014, there were no longer 1-3 sides in England better than them, but 3-5.

I'm happy to go along with Klopp putting you on upward trajectory thus far. Perennial 6th-8th placed finishers when he arrived (2013/14 notwithstanding), and you now look like very capable of, at the very least, putting up a very good fight for one of the four Champions League spots. I'll admit I hadn't really considered that qualification for the CL this season would mark the first time in near 10 years that you'd accomplished the feat in successive seasons, so yes, that would count as upward trajectory to a point, as it proves that last season wasn't just another one off.

However, as Klopper as said, should you be stuck in a cycle of top 4/CL knockout elimination/no domestic cups for the seasons following this one, you will have undoubtedly reached the peak of whatever upward trajectory you were on. If you can consistently manage top 4 (although I think in the current climate it might have to be tempered to challenging for top 4 for all top 6 clubs unless two of them drop off) and continue the likely pattern of CL knockouts elimination, the next logical step to maintain progression is to do this as well as winning the odd domestic cup here and there. This, I suppose, has been the crux of my point, because it was made in response to Rafateria in particular talking up a 4th placed finish as some history-book-worthy accomplishment. There have been a few slight tangents along the way, but that's the summary, I guess.


The points thing for me is an entirely different discussion, because I'm very much a firm believer in position over points. Just because a certain number of points would have meant something in a previous season is utterly meaningless in the current season. The strength of the league varies year on year, and as such the expected points totals for each position in the league will vary. As I said though, it's an entirely different discussion.

 

[Peanut Butter]

Translates to:

“I read all of this, and it’s so true it hurts, but there is no way in hell I am going to admit it, so I will try to make a funny joke about it”

Basically this!

Rafa having a shocker in here as per. I don't know why he puts himself through it.

 

[Random Task]

Basically this!

Rafa having a shocker in here as per. I don't know why he puts himself through it.

Denial is an immensely powerful ally in the fight against truth.

I mean, let's face it, what genuine Liverpool fanatic wants to admit that their team is utter shite?

 

[Rafateria]

Basically this!

Rafa having a shocker in here as per. I don't know why he puts himself through it.

Oh Peanuts. Again ?! Honestly you add absolutely nothing to any thread you inhabit, you just pop up to say 'I agree' ! Contribution to debate = zero input.

 

[Rafateria]

Denial is an immensely powerful ally in the fight against truth.

I mean, let's face it, what genuine Liverpool fanatic wants to admit that their team is utter shite?

Well come on ! What am I denying ? Read the thread for goodness sake. The debate I'm involved in was all about whether FAC/LC created a platform (nothing else and it didn't even have anything to do with Liverpool) .... and there were fans of all 'denominations' on both sides of the argument. Some just happened to be a lot more vocal

 

[Peanut Butter]

Oh Peanuts. Again ?! Honestly you add absolutely nothing to any thread you inhabit, you just pop up to say 'I agree' ! Contribution to debate = zero input.

I disagree.

 

[Halds]

Lets talk about football, shall we?

Absolutely crucial, that we win today. If we do, we go 2nd. Then the pressure will be on Manchester United to get a result against Chelsea.

Henderson benched. Midfield of Ox, Can and Milner.

 

[Random Task]

Lets talk about football, shall we?

Absolutely crucial, that we win today. If we do, we go 2nd. Then the pressure will be on Manchester United to get a result against Chelsea.

Henderson benched. Midfield of Ox, Can and Milner.

United have held second for a while now and it would seem the players are getting a little too comfortable for my liking. There has been a distinct lack of urgency and direction in our play over the last few weeks, being leap-frogged by Liverpool just may give us that extra incentive.

If Liverpool win of course.

 

[Halds]

United have held second for a while now and it would seem the players are getting a little too comfortable for my liking. There has been a distinct lack of urgency and direction in our play over the last few weeks, being leap-frogged by Liverpool just may give us that extra incentive.

If Liverpool win of course.

No doubt Mourinho and the players knows whats at stake. A shitstorm is incomming if you lose tomorrow and go 4th. Don't expect you to lose though. But even a draw will put you right in the dogfight for CL spots.

 

[Random Task]

No doubt Mourinho and the players knows whats at stake. A shitstorm is incomming if you lose tomorrow and go 4th. Don't expect you to lose though. But even a draw will put you right in the dogfight for CL spots.

The dippers of Scouseville overtaking us in the league table is an ungodly transgression that will not go unpunished. I have every confidence that Jose will see to it that the players understand the gravity of the situation. The prospect of finishing below Liverpool should be more than enough incentive for the players to raise their respective games.

Given the current state of affairs regards the league table, anything less than a worthy performance tomorrow will see unrest amongst the fanbase and rightly so.

 

[1tsaMessi]

Quality dig's here from Man Utd fans but that is to be expected. It's quite clear that Liverpool have made huge progress under Jurgen Klopp, who has brought fantastic football to not only Anfield but to the Premier League. In comparison to Man Utd who are play very defensive "boring" football. Ask any neutral who they would prefer to watch.

Look at Liverpool's squad depth in comparison to before Kloop took over. Again a sign of progress.

Klopp also took Liverpool to two finals in his first season, yes we didnt win anything but you also have to be lucky in the right situations to win trophies unless you are Barcelona or Real Madrid. Liverpool weren't lucky enough at the right times. For example look at the teams Man Utd faced to win the Europa cup, then look at the teams Liverpool faced in the year we reached the final. I doubt Man Utd would have won the Europa cup if they faced the teams Liverpool did.

Also, it takes time to build a successful team even nowadays. It took Alex F around 5 years to just even win an FA cup and he rightly is now a Utd legend. So let's not judge too quickly, although I know it's difficult in this modern era.

Finally, let's be happy that year on year the Liverpool team have progressed in the right way. 2nd in the table as of today, we arent going to win but still it's progress.

 

[1tsaMessi]

The dippers of Scouseville overtaking us in the league table is an ungodly transgression that will not go unpunished. I have every confidence that Jose will see to it that the players understand the gravity of the situation. The prospect of finishing below Liverpool should be more than enough incentive for the players to raise their respective games.

Given the current state of affairs regards the league table, anything less than a worthy performance tomorrow will see unrest amongst the fanbase and rightly so.

You guys finished below Liverpool lasy year as well, so you shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Jim Beam]

Finally, let's be happy that year on year the Liverpool team have progressed in the right way. 2nd in the table as of today, we arent going to win but still it's progress.

Honestly, I'm over the moon.

For example look at the teams Man Utd faced to win the Europa cup, then look at the teams Liverpool faced in the year we reached the final. I doubt Man Utd would have won the Europa cup if they faced the teams Liverpool did.

I also highly doubt we would concede 3 goals in the final and fall apart like you did in the second half.