No one is saying that. Its about the hypothetical question of 'would you rather'.
I've seen multiple Liverpool fans on this very forum state that the cups have being very much playing second fiddle to "establishing yourselves in the top 4" with it often being accompanied by some sort of mention of how good you are to watch. It's always in discussions about the apparent progress you're making under Klopp, but it's been mentioned multiple times how the cups don't matter as long as you finish in the top 4.
It doesn't have to be a case of would you rather, which is precisely the point made by many United fans on here, and finishing 4th without winning anything is precisely the thing Arsenal were laughed at for doing for a decade.
Of course it is about winning. My point was that it is not just about winning trophies in may. Winning the derby etc is exactly what I meant about the matchday experience. But the manner in which you win also impacts that.
I am no purist. I can readily appreciate grinding out a 1-0 win. Yet I enjoyed our naively optimistic Roy of the rovers league Challenge in 14 more than our 2001 treble. The almost childlike joy of our weekly wins in the way we did it was just something special. We probably play better football now, but it's not quite the same as that was.
Yes trophies adds a lot. But if it were all that mattered lots of fans of smaller teams should just pack it in.
And my point has been that while the derbies are important, they should be playing second fiddle to actually winning trophies for clubs that pride themselves on how many trophies they've won.
By all means enjoy playing entertaining football and winning derbies, but the point all along has been that for actual top clubs, that doesn't cut the mustard for long. As Rafateria has enjoyed saying in this thread, ask Arsenal. The problem Arsenal now face is that they went so long without challenging for or winning anything, that despite winning three of the last four FA Cups, the perception is that they've fallen too far behind the best teams in the country that there is no way back, at least not under Wenger, and their fan base can be described as, at best, restless as a result. There is also, in this instance, an argument that winning these cups has papered over some rather large cracks that have appeared in the same time frame.
I've already addressed the smaller teams. It's all relative, and I'd expect fans of a team that fancies themselves amongst the best in the country to want their team to win trophies. I'd expect fans of a team that finish mid-table to want their team to do well against local rivals, pick up a scalp or two from their games against the top sides, and maybe find their way to a cup final.
As you said, football is about winning, so who cares about the financial implications of finishing in the top 4 if it means that you have no silverware to celebrate? Who cares about the calibre of player you
may be able to attract (but not really because there are at least three richer teams in the division and more overseas) with a 4th placed finish if the team you have now can lift trophies every few seasons? I get the importance of qualifying for the CL and the desire to see your team in it, but why not want and demand both? This "ah well at least we got 4th" attitude is utterly foreign to me.
I simply don't see what there is to be gained by making it an either-or issue regarding league finish and silverware. It strikes me as little more than a convenient line of argument adopted by fans of teams not winning anything to try and place them alongside the teams that are winning things.
So what do you want Liverpool fans to be like? We have literally no control over the club winning trophies so whilst it’s frustrating if we don’t win anything, I’m perfectly fine with supporting my team still and enjoying the nice football we play if/when we play it.
If in 30 years time our trophiphobia hasn’t abated, I’ll still be happy supporting my team every season.
I'm more than happy for you all to just idly accept that you aren't winning anything, I just find it incredibly odd for fans of a club like Liverpool that have spent year after year celebrating their rich history of winning trophies and being, up until very recently, the most successful club in English football history.
You might not have won a league title in my lifetime, and you might have won only three major trophies since I started secondary school fourteen years ago but Liverpool are and will always be United's main rivals to me, regardless of how much City might win. I grew up in a town that was roughly 50/50 between United and Liverpool fans (North Wales coast) due to the number of people who'd moved from each respective city and them being the two nearest big teams.
You lot turning us over 4-1 in 2008/09 was awful, and the elation I felt when we got back on track and secured the title will remain with me forever. I've also never felt as sick and done with football as I was in 2013/14 when it looked like you were on course to win your first league title in forever, the season after Fergie retired, while we, as reigning champions, languished in 7th, completely helpless to stop you. Gerrard slipping and Dwight Gayle's equaliser then Suarez's subsequent audible sobbing remain my second favourite thing about that tumescent season (the first being the brief 30 seconds I thought we were knocking Bayern Munich out of the CL). Twice a season we play you and twice a season I can honestly say that the result of the game will affect my day, with the same not being true for any other team.
I'd love it if you went 30 years without winning anything else. I'd love it if you did a Leeds and slipped out of the PL altogether. That doesn't mean I can't find it completely alien that, at this current moment in time, you're all sat here talking about finishing 4th instead of winning anything as if it's a marker of success. Arsenal's patented top 4 trophy, Spurs' recent "nearly had a title challenge" cup, and now Liverpool's "we play better football than you" shield don't and never will stand up to actual, proper silverware.
I'm not expecting anyone to stop supporting the club they support, but I do find it increasingly absurd when fans of supposed top clubs start discussing the money their team gets from finishing 4th and the subjective attractiveness and entertainment values of the football played as being more valuable than seeing their team actually lifting silverware.
I can't stop you from enjoying watching Liverpool play, because I know I'd still be watching United if we did a Leeds ourselves and ended up clogging it up in League One, but I just don't get it. I know it was something of a cliche and a meme, but I miss the "next year is our year" Liverpool. You were shite for a good chunk of it, but you truly believed that a couple of refereeing decisions, a small run of luck, or the right signing or two would propel you to the pinnacle of English football. The end was nigh for United with every minor setback, and now you're all sat around going "4th would be a success but even if we miss out, as long it's narrowly and we gave it a good go I'm willing to give him another shot at it next year" and writing off the last two trophies you won as nothing.
