Ladies and Gentlemen .. if you were looking for a concise and unbiased opinion then please run, don't walk, past that post ! Typical Haram, full of excuses for United & Mourinho whilst taking pot shots at Liverpool.
Liverpool - 2017/18
- Thread starter Rafateria
- Start date
So you don’t want to address anything. I wonder why.
Mourinho has addressed the problem of us not being able to break teams down that sit deep through playing Mata at RW, Lukaku’s positioning in the box, and the link, movement and runs from our number 10. Not a coincidence that Lingard has improved this year either. What is Klopp doing to remedy your problems against these teams? I am genuinely curious. Do you think Keita, Ox, Wijnaldum, Van Dijk help break these teams down or? Where is he trying to go with his signings?
Also, you can keep talking about ‘excuses’, we have won two trophies. Our home form is good. We are progressing. You have had these problems for 3 years now.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion sir, but I reckon the majority of UTD fans would disagree wholeheartedly with you.
You can talk all day about Liverpools failures recent years in the domestic cups, but the truth is that it's the PL and CL that really counts, you all know that. And right now, we are doing fine in both. And.. We are entertained with some nice football every now and then. Thats why Liverpools fans in general are content with Klopp and the team.
A domestic cup would be nice, no doubt about that, but it's really not in these cups, that we measure the progress or quality of the team.
A domestic cup would be nice, no doubt about that, but it's really not in these cups, that we measure the progress or quality of the team.
So you're banking on CL and PL success in an era with the strongest Top 6 in PL history, and a CL that will all but guarantee you a tie against one or more of Real Madrid, Barcelona, PSG and Bayern Munich en-route to the final, and that's without including the other English clubs, Juventus, and the occasional other outside favourites like Atletico, Monaco and Dortmund have been in previous years.
You can call it arrogance if you want, but there's a stark contrast between the United fans getting pissed off at being 2nd to just a City side in record breaking form, wanting desperately to win the league while remaining competitive on all other fronts, and the Liverpool fans who keep harping on about "progress" in lieu of winning cups, when all that "progress" apparently amounts to is an annual participation certificate for the CL with "Arsenal" scribbled out and "Liverpool" scrawled in its place.
So there is no reason why you keep failing in the cups?
Never thought Liverpool fans would fall so low, saying trophies don't matter as they are entertaining. I understand such statements coming from arsenal or city or spurs supporters but Liverpool or united fans saying that doesn't make sense.
Klopp''s reign at Liverpool is starting to resemble post invincible era of wenger. All media and arsenal fans used to gloat about was their pretty football but many started to see long before that this wouldn't end pretty. Kopp has to win major trophies, all this playing pretty football is good but if you don't deliver then history won't be kind to you.
Klopp''s reign at Liverpool is starting to resemble post invincible era of wenger. All media and arsenal fans used to gloat about was their pretty football but many started to see long before that this wouldn't end pretty. Kopp has to win major trophies, all this playing pretty football is good but if you don't deliver then history won't be kind to you.
They don't struggle as much with deep sitting teams this season. I think part of the problem last season for them is that Coutinho would often drop deep(because the others are not creative enough) and Mane would be the only guy with pace/penetration. This season you will notice Matip and Van Djik bring the ball out of defence and play splitting passes in between the lines thus negating the need for a midfielder to drop deep. Last season they had Milner as LB and Clyne as RB, both are not great going forward especially Clyne. Trent Alexandre and Robertson are a big improvement and have killer delivery. I think Keita will be a huge improvement on Widjnadum. Keita is the master of the turn over/transition, in the games against the big teams he will make them even more deadly on the counter attack. I still think they need somebody more creative at CDM than Henderson.
I'm not banking on it.. But it's in these competitions, where Liverpool, and Man United, should compete imo. If you're not in the competition, you don't get to play against the best, and you don't have a chance of winning it. Competing and going far in PL and CL is more important than winning FAC, EL and LC in my opinion.
Like I said.. It's nice to win a small cup, it always is, and we should have done better than we have. But I won't lose any sleep over it.
Like I said.. It's nice to win a small cup, it always is, and we should have done better than we have. But I won't lose any sleep over it.
Coutinho could bail them out with a wonder goal. Van Dijk was in the teams that lost to both Swansea and West Brom.
That's not the point. You lose in the same manner. Getting into the top 4 shouldn't stop you winning trophies. It shouldn't mean you lose to Wolves and West Brom at home. You can keep saying you dont lose any sleep over it, but there is clearly a reason why it keeps happening.
They are quite literally post-Invincibles Arsenal at the moment, except they're not fresh off the back of a title-winning, unbeaten season, rounding off two league wins in three seasons, with two FA Cups to boot (and Arsenal won the FA Cup again the season after they went invincible).
It's all "look how entertaining we are" because they're just as likely to win 5-0 as they are to blow a 3-0 lead and draw 3-3. They still go on about losing two cup finals in Klopp's first season as if that's somehow a good thing. There's a culture of failure and mediocrity that's being allowed to fester there, and I'm all for it. There's no drive to win things, no drive to be on top, because as long as they can finish in the top 4 they can collect their "progress" stamp and award themselves the title of "most entertaining team" year in, year out.
Think they messed up with spending 75m on one player, imo. That money could've been put to better use bulking out the squad.
I never said, that trophies don't matter! I said that PL and CL are the trophies that really matters.
I never thought any Man United fans would fall so low, that Europa Leagues and League cups are counted as major trophies.
Also, why do you keep saying "them" but it says you support Liverpool?
Van Dijk is new to the team, it's to be expected he'll have a bumpy ride initially. Klopps doing well at Liverpool imo, there's clear signs of progress and he's starting to address the problem errors in the Liverpool squad. I don't even think losing Coutinho will hurt them all that much. Trading Coutinho for Van Dijk and another player is a decent trade off imo.
Point the guy was making was that Van Dijk helps them break down teams... there isn't really that much evidence for that. They didn't really break West Brom and Swansea down and lost both games. Also don't think Van Dijk solves the flaws in their system.
He's much better than Lovren so that alone will immediately help their defense. I agree with your first point though, his passing isn't that much better than Lovrens but he's better defensively.
What flaw in their system are you referring too?
Well we have the second best record at home this year. We have won 10 out of 13 games at home. We already have more goals at home than last year. Already have more wins. I think the majority of fans will agree that we are better against teams that sit deep compared to last year.
The way they press to try and facilitate the attack means their defence is exposed. If you can bypass the press they are in trouble. They throw up big chances to the opposition. Also, when teams sit deep they are not that creative with their passing and runs to break teams down. Their attacking play is heavily reliant on their pressing game. Their pressing game exposes their defence.
I'm sure there is.. We weren't good enough in these matches, thats why. We're not consistent, and our squad lacks the quality in depth.
First no sane united fan ever said or meant league cup and Europa league a major trophies. So please stop with that Bs for strengthening your points.
Secondly you act as if Jose and united were given an option of choosing Europa or CL. We were in europa and we won. We won the league cup too. Funny klopp lost the exact two competitions a year before.
It seem you didn't understand my original point or don't want to understand. Liverpool and Manchester United are recognised such a successful clubs because of their trophy records not because of how entertaining they were. Yes some trophies count more than the others, not denying that but at the end top clubs try to win every trophy and not pick and choose and gloat over getting knocked out of the competition.
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That's the case for every pressing team though and replacing an error prone defender in Lovren with a better defender will obviously help.
Now the question is whether the hype is genuine. If he can handle the pressure at Liverpool and step up his game another notch then he'll be a great purchase. Personally i'm a bit worried about Liverpool as I think with Keita in their team they'll have a rock solid CM who suits their style perfectly. Assuming they don't lose one of their top 3 attacking players they'll be looking pretty strong next season.
Also think they'll go far in the CL this year.
They are major trophies, or at least they have been for the last decade or so as your lot have desperately tried to cling onto your "most successful club in England" medal.
Obviously we'd swap them for the Champions League and Premier League in a heartbeat, but considering we weren't even in the CL last season, and it became abundantly clear by around October that we weren't really in title-challenging condition, I'll gladly celebrate winning two of the three competitions we stood a realistic chance in. At the end of the day, our Europa League win booked us a place in the CL group stages and won us a trophy. Your fourth place saw you having to face a play-off and you had nothing to show for it.
It's all well and good you talking about how the PL and CL trophies are all that matter, but do you actually consider Liverpool to have a realistic chance of winning either? As I said in my previous response to you, the PL has the strongest Top 6 it has had for a number of years, and you are all but guaranteed to face one, if not two or more of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, PSG, Juventus, and the other English sides en-route to any CL final.
If United can't win the PL or CL, which is looking likely to be the case this year, I want them to go for the cups. We're out of one, but have as good a chance as anyone else in the FA Cup. I would sacrifice second for fourth right now if it meant guaranteeing the FA Cup this season, even if that also meant Liverpool finishing second. However, I see no reason why we can't finish second, win the FA Cup, and get to at least the quarters, if not further, in the CL.
Arsenal spent the best part of a decade focusing on not competing for league titles or CL trophies at expense of the domestic cups, and they became nothing other than a joke. If you can't win the best thing, you've got to try and win the next best thing, not feck it off as early as possible under the guise of not caring. Football is a game about winning, and I'm always completely baffled by football fans who don't care about their team winning because they're "entertaining".
Should the manager not be able to match up against defensive teams better though? Also, should they not have another way of playing? Can they actually sit deeper and create like that? I think a manager like Mourinho is able to implement a team that throughout a game has phases of pressing, phases of sitting back, phases of going long, phases of countering etc. I think a team that does not have the perfect personnel should adapt their game within matches and according to opponents.
My belief is that he's been slowly trying to perfect the pressing play until all his players are comfortable playing it. Will he adjust his play for defensive teams? Maybe, maybe not. If he doesn't then its certainly a flaw in his strategy and should be called up on it. But this season has been a good step up from last year and despite them not challenging for the title this year (don't think anyone could match City tbh) I do think they have a good chance in the CL. They've got the right mentality in the big games and their game style will suit the knockout stages imo. Unfortunately they're my dark horse this season for the CL.
In terms of breaking down defensive teams, I think it's something that City do extremely well. They've got very technical players that have superb movement and can break teams down easily. If you look at Liverpool, you can say that the top 3 share those attributes, but their midfield? I'm not convinced any of them can match Citys technical skill. They've all got good engines and can press teams well. That's an area they need to improve on, bring in an attacking, technical CM who can link up with their front 3 in tight spaces.
Well we shall see. What I have seen so far from them, I am not convinced they are really going to go anywhere in terms of trophies. I agree they have some sort of a chance in the CL due to the fact the opposition teams will play a bit more open.
Very reasonable write up
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Can anyone see any major improvements with Pool from last season to this? They will end up in similar league position as last. CL is their only trophy they are in, for which they have to fight Europes top teams which is going to be very difficult. Still having problems opening up lesser sides. Third season under Klopp and still haven't addressed their major problem ie leaking goals. Haven't won anything for a while now, and still loosing their best players. Looks like a typical Liverpool of past?
How long can they keep going without winning anything?
How long can they keep going without winning anything?
It would most certainly be nice to win the FA Cup, but seeing as our squad is as thin as it is, I'm perfectly fine with prioritising the CL and PL. Like @haram said, we should at some point build a winning mentality. The thing is though, right now our back up if Firmino ges injured is 20-year old Solanke who is yet to score in a competitive game and Ings, who's scored 3 in 2,5 years. Our squad simply isn't good enough to compete for both top 4, the CL and domestic cups.
And I'd take a top 4 finish over an FA Cup win every time. If we ever wan't to compete for the big honours, we need to consistently be in the CL so that we can attract decent players and pay them what they want. We don't have the same pulling power or financial muscle as you, sadly.
And I'd take a top 4 finish over an FA Cup win every time. If we ever wan't to compete for the big honours, we need to consistently be in the CL so that we can attract decent players and pay them what they want. We don't have the same pulling power or financial muscle as you, sadly.
Well I guess the top 6 is more competitive this year.
I mean he could have used Sturridge? He literally went to the team that knocked you out of the FA Cup.
they just spent 75m on a desperately needed centre half. last season their whole defence and goalkeeper was calamity level, to a point they know it themselves, and a hex over the team. That has at least been addressed. Big question is Salah having a golden season or will this be how he consistently plays for them
This is a mentality of modern football in the EPL I don't really understand. Surely if you want to start competing for the big honours, you've got to start by competing for honours in general? Both Liverpool and Spurs seem to have given up on prioritising the domestic cups, but if you want to instil a real winners mentality, then you have to be prepared to go for everything. I don't think this means having to be as all or nothing as you suggest. You can still put out a weaker side, but you make demands that they are in this to win it. I don't think your performances, in particular, over the last few seasons in the cups would suggest Klopp is doing this.
I totally get your argument about squad depth, and it's a valid one. But when you look at the massive potential to succeed Liverpool currently have, coupled with the shameful (given your illustrious history) record of having only won one league cup in over a decade, then - as a fan - I'd be clamouring for any silverware. You've played a better brand of football than us over the last couple of seasons, but it's United who will be remembered for having been more successful over this time because of what we've won. As for attracting players, the ability to offer them an immediate shot at silverware in a footballing climate where only a handful of teams across Europe realistically have a chance is arguably a bigger draw than a season of CL football. If it isn't, then they probably aren't the players to bring about the winning mentality you said needed to be instilled.
Far from it. Spending huge money on players and hope it fixes is like shooting in the dark. Klopp had 5 tranfser window to address major problem and to say that the problem still exists, shows that he doesn't care enough or cannot fix it. I have no issues with Klopp's front line. However, even with good defenders, with they way they commit players on the offense, i don't know if they could hold onto say a 1 goal lead in a crucial tie. That's their problem with the cup competition.
You might be right, our performances have certainly been sub-standard.
I do want silverware, don't get me wrong. And I would love for us to win the FA Cup coupled with a top 4 finish in the league. I wouldn't choose the FA Cup over CL, though, and that's because of the money, the exposure and the fact that I absolutely love watching Liverpool in the Champions League.
As for the last part, I highly doubt that players would choose a reigning FA Cup champion over a CL participant. Either way, the CL provides fame and a lot of cash which hopefully can bring us a stronger squad to compete on more fronts next season
Some rubbish in this thread. Establishing ourselves in the top four is far, far more important than winning a domestic trophy.
No. Players don't care for domestic trophies and in general will leave within 24 months if you aren't looking like a side that can challenge in the CL/PL.
No. Players don't care for domestic trophies and in general will leave within 24 months if you aren't looking like a side that can challenge in the CL/PL.
I wonder if Arsenal fans would prefer their situation of being outside the top 4 for probably two seasons in a row and winning the FA Cup and League Cup in those two seasons, or being in the Top 4 winning nothing.
Both clubs had not won anything for a while. Arsenal started winning FA Cups but in that time have dropped out of the top 4 while Liverpool, having won nothing, have replaced them there.
Both clubs had not won anything for a while. Arsenal started winning FA Cups but in that time have dropped out of the top 4 while Liverpool, having won nothing, have replaced them there.
Besides Leicester's miracle season, name one Premier League club that recently succeeded in challenging for the top competitions who weren't also taking cup competitions seriously? Apply that same question to any major league in Europe. To win the top things, requires a winning mentality throughout the team.
As someone who has seen first-hand players' response to winning domestic cups over the last few seasons, I can tell you that your claim they don't care is simply rubbish. As for the 24 months expiry date, that could happen irregardless of what a club may have won 2 years previously. 2 years can be a lifetime in football. Don't get me wrong, I love that some Liverpool fans are more than happy to prioritise finishing top 4 over actually winning something, and I agree there is a logic to it - particularly in the current football climate. But if you are seriously wanting to win stuff - you know, the aim of football - then you've surely got to get back in the habit of walking before you run? Seriously, if your squad got a taste for winning, I'd be worried about what you could achieve.
The way things are in the Premier League currently, any club other than City claiming to have established themselves as a shoe in for top 4 is unlikely to happen any time soon.
You have won one league cup in 12 seasons. Wigan have a better record than that having won a more prestigious cup. You held a open-top bus parade for the league cup win. If I was a Liverpool fan, I'd be fuming at that record. People laughed at Arsenal's baron period a few seasons back, but that record pails in contrast to your current streak.
Liverpool fans keep saying they don't care about the FA Cup but their team gets knocked out of it by shit teams anyway. There is more to this than just the FA Cup. You are not going to win anything is the main point here .
.Erm... who’s gonna tell him?
Football should switch from a goal based outcomes to a judge determined outcome. We can either have ratings at intervals like boxing or just one rating at the end of a match. The judges can hold up a paddle with a number on.