Just putting it here. Linesman and ref discussion prior to the first penalty.
Liverpool - 2017/18
- Thread starter Rafateria
- Start date
I think the blowing teams away part works well in the early part of the season, but the longer you go into the season, the less this happens, it just becomes more and more sporadic, as Klopp asks far too much of his players in terms of running etc, it takes its toll, hence why come January/February they tend to start falling away from the pack somewhat, and getting knocked out of multiple competitions (we have seen this happen this season by getting knocked out of the league cup and the FA Cup early on).
Klopp just cannot build a team to last a full season, he just seemingly loves to not just tire his best players out, but absolutely Traveller them, and run them into the ground.
They might be just five points behind us currently, but I fully expect that gap to increase in due course, due to their better players (Salah, Firmino and Mane) getting more and more tied as the burden on their shoulders just gets bigger and bigger.
You would have to wonder what would be going through Salah's mind if say he ends up with thirty goals, but Liverpool only finish fifth, as he might think seeing Coutinho picking up medals and honours elsewhere, what is the point in him sticking around, as it is very unlikely that as long as Klopp is the manager that Liverpool will ever come close to winning anything of note, or just in general.
So I don't think that they are anything like a threat to us over a full length season, and it will not matter who Klopp buys, as his s style might be eye catching on the odd occasion, but overall his is a very damaging style to play in, and doesn't work over here where there are multiple competitions to play in.
Regardless of the pen descions,
I said it incessantly before the game but it was a huge mistake not to go with the City midfield. I cannot fathom the thinking behind it given the body of evidence he and the coaching staff had available to him on what types of personnel, attributes and combinations have thrived in these sorts of games.
The only rationale I can come up with is he overestimated what he saw the previous game and second half of the WBA game. Still that just ranks as sheer incompetency. Utterly mind boggling selection. We did it in the return fixture earlier on and got ripped through on the transition that time, this time we just gassed.
I said it incessantly before the game but it was a huge mistake not to go with the City midfield. I cannot fathom the thinking behind it given the body of evidence he and the coaching staff had available to him on what types of personnel, attributes and combinations have thrived in these sorts of games.
The only rationale I can come up with is he overestimated what he saw the previous game and second half of the WBA game. Still that just ranks as sheer incompetency. Utterly mind boggling selection. We did it in the return fixture earlier on and got ripped through on the transition that time, this time we just gassed.
Yeah, you're right. That's why 4 United and 5 City players played more minutes than Salah who played the most minutes in Liverpool squad.
He already did? I mean, he was in 2 finals with Liverpool which is pretty close to winning I think.
Worked really well in the first half. And Oxlade seems to be out of form in the last few matches.
So we are turning defeats into successes are we now?
Sorry getting beat in finals will never for me be something that is a good thing.
I don't classify those two finals that they were in as getting close as they got beat quite easily in both, especially in the Europa League final, there was nothing close about the result.
Klopp is just not someone that a club should want in charge if your aim is to win actual trophies, as his record of doing so is very poor indeed.
Who said that?
So being in a finale and losing after penalties isn't, as you put it, "coming close to winning anything of note"? Oookay.
That's just laughable. BVB position in the league before Klopp: 7, 7, 9, 13. With Klopp: 6, 5, 1, 1, 2, 2, 7.
Well I don't think anyone could/should put a positive spin on the FAC defeat per se. but you also can't deny that there are some positives that could come out of it.
Personally I don't base 'improvement' on league position alone (or trophies at this stage - that alone is a long and boring debate I'm not going to embark on though). If I can see improvement on the pitch, even if it has not manifested itself in points and position yet, then that for me is the team beginning to take shape. With the acquisitions of VvD and Keita, with the improvements this season of Gomez and TAA, with Robertson replacing that imbecile Moreno at LB and the stellar arrival of Salah (no, IMHO there is no way in the world LFC will sell him to RM or anyone else next Summer, we have never sold a top player after 1 season, and barring I suppose something utterly ridiculous like a £200m bid then I strongly doubt it will happen now) then yes, the team is coming along nicely.
I suppose we'll get a top keeper this Summer (as all the rumours have it) and for sure another midfielder or two (Can on his way, Hendo perma-injured and Milner on his last legs), and Melissa Reddy (a strong Liverpool ITK) is saying we are also in for another CB, then I could see a very strong team ready to actually challenge for trophies .. assuming it all comes together. Klopp is renown for his long-term rather than short-term planning so we shouldn't be surprised that it's panning out like that.
Isn't that the case for every team though? Liverpool have dominated most teams this season yet have dropped many points where they shouldn't, ditto Spurs or Arsenal or Chelsea. United are not alone in dropping points where they shouldn't. Usually when a Top 6 team drops points to one below them it's a surprise so using that to say "we should have ... they were lucky" is actually, well just bollocks. United are not more or less deserving to have won those games they dropped points in than any of the other Top 6 in theirs !
@RedRom having an absolute nightmare by simply just not checking facts before tapping away furiously on his keyboard with whatever comes into his mind first.
Let's add another Red Rom statistical failure to this thread whilst we are at it: the fact that Spurs are actually the team that has done the most running in the PL this season (last time I checked, a month or so ago, Liverpool were 5th) !!
I am not adverse to making errors, and when I do, I will hold my hands up and say sorry my error for doing so, if that is the case here, then I will admit my mistake, and apologise for thinking differently in my previous post.
*clapping smilie*
To be fair to the point made, which was about hiring Klopp to win trophies, Klopp hasn't won all that much. He's got two league titles and a German cup, all of which were won in two seasons, the most recent of which was 6 years ago. He's not the sort of manager you bring in to guarantee (or near as damn it) silverware because he simply hasn't a record of doing so, and in fact, has currently has a run of five cup final defeats since his last trophy.
Fair enough with only losing the final on penalties. But as close as Liverpool came to winning the cup, they came just as close to an embarrassing semi-final exit over 2 legs v Stoke when needing penalties to scrape past them. The only other 2 ties Klopp played in that cup run were v Bournemouth and Southampton. Hardly definitive proof that he's going to bring silverware to Anfield.
In terms of bringing silverware to Anfield, they've lost a League Cup final, been knocked out in the semi-final after failing to score over both legs, and then been knocked out in their first game, they've been knocked out of the FA Cup in the fourth round for three consecutive years, lost the Europa League final, had a year out of Europe, and are very much outsiders in the Champions League this season, all while coming no where near a challenge for the league title.
Unfortunately for Liverpool they don't get any silverware for only losing on penalties. You either win or you lose, and they lost.
All in all it's a very strange point to be making about a man who's lost more than twice as many cup finals as he's won.
I think if Klopp had wanted to come out and press Tottenham high up the pitch all game like we did against City then he would have gone for the same midfield as the City game. The tactical plan was to play a middle/low block and deny them space in the middle and attacking thirds and counter into the spaces that their fullbacks leave. It worked really well in the first half and we really should have taken advantage of the chances that we created to go into the half more then 1-0 up. Pochettino made some great adjustments at the half that we couldn’t handle which got Tottenham back into the game. The team selection, with the tactics employed, was the right one.
That's true of course, but you can not ignore whom he coached: Mainz, BVB, who were 13th before his appointment, and pretty average Liverpool side (in terms of personnel I think during his regime they're 6th best side in the league).
Never said that.
Very well said, he really is overhyped when you think about what he has actually achieved as a manager.
And didn't he win the Bundesliga when LvG was Bayern manager? Figures.
Not knocking his record though. He's still the best Liverpool can get. He will always sign exciting attacking players, keep them in the Top 4 or thereabouts and is probably their best shot at winning a trophy, assuming he ever does win a final again.
Whilst I agree with everything else you said I disagree that 'Pochettino made some great adjustments at the half time' . We continued in the same vein for the first 10-15mins of the second half, nothing had changed. However it quickly became clear that Hendo (6 weeks out, first game back), Milner (old legs can't handle 90 full bloodied mins any more perhaps ?) and Can (more mins in 2018 than any other Liverpool player) were fading quickly. Klopp had no option but to bring on OxCham and Gini, who both played shite, but his biggest mistake ws switching to 3 at the back, he could have just dropped Matip into MF to shield the back four.
You could be right about the tiring of our midfielders but Dele Alli was finding a lot of new space that he didn’t find in the first half.
The change to 3 at the back was really smart as far as I’m concerned. Spurs fullbacks were pushing up incredibly high in the 2nd half with all of their possession which required our fullbacks to defend wider and opened up the half spaces for Spurs midfielders to move into. By moving to 3 at the back, in theory, we should have been able to defend the fullbacks who were pushed up while still maintaining defensive compactness in the middle part of the field. In addition, if we had been able to posses the ball a little better our wingbacks would have been able to get higher up the field providing us with some width and with 3 at the back we still would have been ok dealing with any potential counterattack’s.
As you said though the danger wasn't coming from the wings .. it came through the middle via Alli and Dembele (and later Wanyama). Had Matip been in front of the back four then I doubt their midfield would have found so much space and maybe Wanyama wouldn't even have found time for his worldie. Robertson and TAA were having good games defensively, there is and was no criticism of their performances, in fact TAA is being lauded for his.
He did well in Germany & I think he's a talented manager but his biggest issue here is that of the top 11 richest clubs in the world, 6 are in the PL. All have top notch managers who all, with the exception of Spurs, spend more money than Liverpool, and in Pep's/City's case spent 500m in 18 months.
I enjoy a bit of Klopp bashing and he's had some bad moments but there's no question he's a good manager.
For how long can he fall back on his Dortmund spell, as it is getting longer and longer ago now.
Plus it ended on a very poor note for him and since then he has not exactly set the world alight has he?
His record in finals is pretty poor, so he really isn't someone that any club should be turning to if they want to a chance of success.
Who could Liverpool get that is better?
Those Budesliga wins are of course fading into the rear-view mirror but at Dortmund it took him 3 years to build his winning side. That's in a league with just Bayern as the wealthier and more dominant side. Here he needs to build a team while the likes of City, Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal spend more & Spurs have their best ever PL side.
Even this season, if we take City out of it, they'd be in a title race just like us.
You're overlooking the fact that LFC as a club were floating in mid table for years (except one season) before his arrival. So to expect him to come in and challenge for major honours instantly is unrealistic. If he can finish top four in successive seasons then he'll have done quite a good job.
Unfortunately, this is my last post for the day as I don’t have the requisite post likes to post more then 3 times a day.
But, the danger was coming from the spaces that opened up in the middle due to our fullbacks and our midfielders being forced to move wide to defend Spurs wide play. I agree, Robertson and TAA played very well. The change in formation wasn’t down to how any of our players were playing as individuals but in response to Spurs tactics and how they were able to create those spaces in the middle by stretching our back line.
Who else they could get is thankfully none of my concern.
In terms of him facing more of an uphill battle here than in Germany, that is true, however that does not explain his very poor record in the cups in this country, he should not be getting eliminated by such teams that have done so, that is a huge black mark on his C.V. at Liverpool, and just goes to show how much of a failure he is turning into as a manager.
I am not expecting him to win a single major honour there that is my whole point, he simply isn't good enough to do so, however where he should be good enough is to e in the running for a domestic cup, but they have not been able to do so, which shows him up quite badly, especially to the sides that have eliminated him.
Top 4 is more valuable than domestic trophies in the modern game.
He isn’t much of a manager if he can’t compete for both. Dodgy, flaky fecker.
So hypothetically speaking, if he were to stay a decade at Liverpool, and he were to win no domestic trophy, but say finish 2nd once, 3rd three times, 4th six times, that would be a successful time for him?
Rather than say finishing 3rd four times, 4th five times, and 5th once, but on that fifth place finish they also win the FA Cup and the League Cup?
Which scenario would see him be seen as having had more success, the one with trophies, or the one without?
There wouldn't be much difference between the two. He'd still have qualified CL 9/10 times, so he'd have some leeway.
What I would say is that consistent CL qualification would be much more likely to see him keep his job in that period, over 10 years of inconsistent league finishes (4th one year, 6th the next) with an occasional domestic cup thrown in.
Thing is there are different objectives to look at when you judge a season compared to a managerial career. No doubt the first thing people will be asking from a manager at the end of his career is how many trophies he has won. On the other hand, if you were to spell out your list of priorities for the season, more often than not a top 4 finish will always finish higher than a domestic cup win. It might not be the best or most pleasant thing, but that is just the way the sport is at the moment, with the financial benefits and the draw in transfers CL football provides.
To answer your question, I think it really depends on which way you want to look at it. On one hand we haven't won a single trophy since 2012, and even that was a League Cup, so it's bloody time we have something shiny to put in tha cabinet. Then again, if you were to ask which of the two scenarios would I choose, then I think I'd have to say the second one, as that would leave the club in a much better position for the future.
So much drama over a pen decision that Kane fecked up anyway
Yeah like all you could hear was "justice" after he missed it, so if justice was served why brag about it still?
Yep, its been fuelled by social media and sky who milked the fact they got the ref and assistants convo on tape. It was probably a fair result on the balance of play, so time to move on.
Why has Lovren done a lengthy interview with LFC TV going on about the penalty decisions?
Bizarre. Get over it.
Bizarre. Get over it.
So Lazar Markovic has been loaned out to Anderlecht. Reports today in Belgian newspapers that he can't even make the U23 squad as his condition is abysmal. He's told to train 2 times extra a day, just running laps. Crazy.
Kills me to say it but they just play so much more entertaining football than us. Even when they drop points the games are entertaining.
@RobinLFC @giorno
There's now a piece on TIA that just emphasises exactly what I have been saying for a year about Firmino playing as a deep lying #10 or advance #8, it even suggests that that is where Klopp has gone already :
Roberto Firmino, as is often the case, is almost part of the midfield, and Sadio Mane’s increased involvement and success in this game means he is as high up the pitch as Mohamed Salah.
When both of these players are on the top of their game, Liverpool’s formation in this system will begin to resemble a 4-4-2 diamond, with Salah and Mane as the strikers, and Firmino at the head of the midfield.
There have already been signs of the development of this Coutinho-less formation, and they were evident again here.
https://www.thisisanfield.com/2018/...ish-porto-tactical-review-liverpools-5-0-win/
There's now a piece on TIA that just emphasises exactly what I have been saying for a year about Firmino playing as a deep lying #10 or advance #8, it even suggests that that is where Klopp has gone already :
Roberto Firmino, as is often the case, is almost part of the midfield, and Sadio Mane’s increased involvement and success in this game means he is as high up the pitch as Mohamed Salah.
When both of these players are on the top of their game, Liverpool’s formation in this system will begin to resemble a 4-4-2 diamond, with Salah and Mane as the strikers, and Firmino at the head of the midfield.
There have already been signs of the development of this Coutinho-less formation, and they were evident again here.
https://www.thisisanfield.com/2018/...ish-porto-tactical-review-liverpools-5-0-win/
I've thought he could play that position for a long time, too, @Rafateria . For the same reasons I think Alexis and Fekir could make the transition into central midfielders.