If they don't win any trophies and their team in unbalanced the approach is flawed.
Liverpool - 2017/18
- Thread starter Rafateria
- Start date
If they don't win any trophies and their team in unbalanced the approach is flawed.
Yeah, the priority order should be:
1. Trophies playing attractive football
2. Trophies playing any kind of football
3. Playing attractive football
4. Playing shite football.
Klopp/Pochettino deserve more time as at least he's got their teams on an upward trajectory(unlike Arsenal)
It wouldn’t be entertaining to their fans though.
Honestly, and maybe you'll say I'm biased since we haven't won anything in ages, but I'm okay with switching 2 and 3. Watching football should be entertaining, something you enjoy and look forward to, not a chore like I've read many United fans experience it since SAF retired. I obviously wouldn't mind winning the league playing shit, but I'd want something better the season after that - what's the point of winning trophies if you fans can barely stand to watch you play since you're so boring?
I'd like defensive stability but if it makes us look like United is playing under Mourinho from time to time, I'll take a 4-3 every day of the week. I love watching us play since the 13/14 season, and we are probably a top 5 entertaining side in the world since that season. Even if we haven't won anything in that period, I've really enjoyed it.
You're confusing entertaining with satisfactory. Even if we drop points, I will still be entertained most of the times.
I agree wholeheartedly. I'd rather sit down & know I'm gonna see something entertaining (for whatever reason) than feel like I can just check the BBC website after the game & see we've grinded out another boring 1-0 win.
I think you’re deluding yourself a bit to make yourself feel better about Liverpool’s barren spell and the tangible success that’s eluded you.
You may have enjoyed individual games but come seasons end it’s all for nothing and you’re left wondering what was the point in those occasional sparkling wins. Because it got top 4? I’ve seen Liverpool fans pretending to be happy to be out of the cups because it helps the chase for top 4. Apparently it’s great that you’ve had this weekend off for the team to go on holiday rather than you know, be in contention for a trophy. No doubt when the team exits the CL that will be spun the same way - “glad we’re out of that mates so we can focus on top 4, and fail all over again next season”
And I guarantee no matter what joy the odd individual 4-3 game gives it pales in comparison to the joy felt by United fans when Jesse Lingard banged in the late winner in in the FA Cup final, or indeed when Liverpool have won trophies in the past. You could make a case that Newcastle were a more entertaining side than United in the late 90s - very similar to Klopp’s Liverpool in terms of approach to the game. Do you think it’s any consolation to their fans? That they wouldn’t swap all of it for a slightly smarter approach and some tangible success?
Have Liverpool even won a trophy in your lifetime playing anything approaching entertaining football? Most of your greatest moments were built on pretty pragmatic and defensively orienated football. Even your greatest ever sides were fond of the good ol’ backpass to kill the game (so much so they changed the rules). Yet suddenly Liverpool fans are the purveyors and protectors of all that’s entertaining and artistic about the game because of a couple of seasons of trophyless often thoughtless attacking football. Give me a break.
I know you quoted Robin, but I'll answer it from my perspective.
I'm not a die hard football fan. If Liverpool win a game, it doesn't really fill me with the same amount of energy as it does my family members when Villa win a match. The only times I can ever recall being REALLY invested in a match were the 05/07 finals, and the games vs City/Chelsea in 13/14.
If it meant more to me, of course I'd want victory at all costs, but I'm not the kind to get overly emotionally invested in a game I'm playing no part in.
So yeah, I'll take the entertainment. If we get to the point where we can challenge for something (like we did vs City/Chelsea in 13/14), then I don't care how we play - I'll just want to win.
I'm not a die hard football fan. If Liverpool win a game, it doesn't really fill me with the same amount of energy as it does my family members when Villa win a match. The only times I can ever recall being REALLY invested in a match were the 05/07 finals, and the games vs City/Chelsea in 13/14.
If it meant more to me, of course I'd want victory at all costs, but I'm not the kind to get overly emotionally invested in a game I'm playing no part in.
So yeah, I'll take the entertainment. If we get to the point where we can challenge for something (like we did vs City/Chelsea in 13/14), then I don't care how we play - I'll just want to win.
It sounds like you’re more a fan of the sport than your team if you’re not invested in the outcome.
You sound a bit like me watching basketball, just wanting to see to end to end high scoring games, without caring about who wins or what it’s building towards in the grand scheme.
I’d say your POV is out of step with regular football fandom though, and especially that of Liverpool fans who I believe are even more desperate for trophies than most.
You're not wrong honestly. If it's a choice between watching a Hodgson era LFC take on West Brom, or watching Barcelona take on Man City, I'm always gonna pick the latter.
Personally I think we as fans should take a step back and understand that whilst we watch football to see our team win, we want to be entertained.
Watching a sport is a form of entertainment like going to the cinema etc. You're with a group of mates/family or both and you enjoy the game, whether it be at home, the pub or a stadium. It should never be a chore to watch. Watching Liverpool this season, and in fact the last few seasons, have been exciting. I want to watch us play, and had we of won something it would have been the cherry on top of the cake, but without it it's still a delicious cake. Especially as we can all see signs of progress.
Plus, I do think playing attractive football and success goes hand in hand. Can you play great football but not with anything? And I'm not talking about one season but surely playing attractive football for a good number of years will eventually yield results? Attractive football is good football right?
That enjoyment should never be lost, if you enjoy watching your team play then its going to be an enjoyable experience, regardless of if you win something. Obviously winning something makes the whole experience better but the attractive football side of things is just as important.
Attractive football first, then the trophies should follow shortly after.
It's a very tough question to be honest. I remember winning leagues based on getting a goal or two ahead and then killing the match stone dead. Happy to win and loved the parades at the end of the season.
As far as going out of the FAC is concerned, I don't think any LFC fan has said they were actually happy about it (we'd still like to have won it) but a pragmatic approach is to point out the undeniable (even by you) benefits to the club, as far as this season is concerned, of not being in it any longer. Even the blindest fan of any ilk should be able to acknowledge how important to Liverpool / Spurs / Arsenal staying in the Top 4 has become and that fewer matches not related to the PL enhances their chances..
However maybe it's because there have been few and far realistic chances of us winning trophies in recent years that playing entertaining football becomes a crutch of sorts, even though it's great to watch and maybe I too would take it over winning the FAC or LC or EL .. but not over the CL or PL when it's been so many years since we've lifted the league title.
Can't deny how enjoyable it is to look forward to every game though, even when not all pan out, as is the nature of the sport.
However conversely I think that maybe the memory of the glorious years under Ferguson have invaded and perverted the thoughts and opinions of United fans, who have been so used to glory that the thought of being without it and of someone actually just enjoying football for football's sake (which let's face it, the vast majority of football fans do week in week out, since the teams they support have no chance of ever winning anything of any real importance) is almost inconceivable and so find this attitude not only implausible, but even deny it's possibility.
And stop trying to suggest, with your final two sentences, that just because one, two or a few Liverpool fans have that viewpoint that they are representative of all Liverpool fans. Behave yourself.
I'd rather finish top 4 than finish 6th and win the FA cup. Nothing pretend about it.
With City running away with the title, the best the rest of us can aim for is CL football the following season. Whilst finishing top 4 or winning the FA cup provides qualification in equal measure, with the latter you get a trophy in the process.
Given the fact that Liverpool haven't won a trophy in years, surely winning the FA cup would be the optimal route? The entertainment factor that the good cup run provides should also prove beneficial in many aspects.
There are no benefits to exiting major cup competitions.
There is absolutely no evidence that exiting the FA Cup gives any benefit to a top 4 finish.
In fact, I'm sure I've seen this examined and the opposite was found to be true. Playing regular competitive knockout games with the realistic prospect of silverware raised the teams level. Remember FA Cup games are played on weekends as well, so don't really impact the regular rhythm of having a game every weekend.
Let's be honest, the slog for top 4 is based on nothing more than fear. "What if we don't make it, we're doomed" etc. Whereas a cup run is so much more hopeful and aspirational than the spurious distinction of being placed somewhere around 4th in your league.
Enjoying football for football's sake is fine. But this doesn't tally with spending hundreds of millions only to crash out of cup competitions and focus on the negatively slanted slog of a top 4 battle. Plus you're essentially being 'happy' about your team playing fewer games and there being quite a few weekends when you won't get to watch them. Give me games, games, games and the prospect of silverware over that any day of the week.
Winning the FA cup doesn't provide CL qualification.. would be a good incentive if it did I suppose.
Let be realistic, what is so good about CL qualification when you realize next season your chance of winning is close to zero?
CL qualification were push by businessmen and over time fan got caught into the cliche. Of course, being in the competition you have more chance end up a winner than not getting qualification. However, being in it doesn't mean anything if your ambition and biliary ain't any close to push all the way.
Ambitious teams would try to win as much as they can. I don't Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, Juventus, try to neglect their domestic Cup. Sure, they prioritize if things come down to that, but in normal circumstance, I don't see any of them treat the domestic Cup like how Poch talked about League Cup and FA Cup, despite ironically miles and miles away from challenging for both PL and CL
Moneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoney!!!!!!!money!
Without which the chances of winning anything in any following seasons is minus 100%.
You don't earn money, generate income by winning?
You get to play against the best teams in Europe, earn more money, get more commercial exposure and sign better players. It means you're eating at the top table and more likely to be a good team. Much better than playing against Leyton Orient or Rochdale in some farm.
I honestly couldn't give much of a feck about either domestic cup. Nice to win, but not at all a barometer of an elite team. Arsenal have won it three times recently and they're shit.
Ironically, Arsenal fans complained for 15 years about the lack of silverware. As soon as they won two FA Cups in a row they were no longer in the CL, and all the financial implications that come with that. Can't be more stark than that.
Personally, I would like to win everything. Always. I would like to see one FA Cup but like you imply not at the cost of signing the likes of Salah who will only come if we are playing in the CL and paying big wages (therefore need the CL money).
And with that non-CL qualification came the Wenger out campaigns and planes being flown above the ground, despite the recent silverware.
The FA cup and the League Cup are just not important trophies anymore.
Silly question.
1. Direct competition money (prize/TV)
2. Overall contribution to 'stature' of the club (and therefore ability to affect commercial revenue).
3. Ability to attract better players.
That's like saying why do Stoke want to stay in the PL when they have no chance of winning it next season.
I wrote something (most of it) similar to what I am to write now, way back.
While domestic Cups ain't the mark of a successful team. It's the foundation for ambitious team to built on. The hunger to win more prestigious trophy. Just look at your team for example. After that League Cup win few years back. Many players in the same team together put up a proper challenge for the the title. Then go back further Benitez. His team are nuisance in the Cups. And his teams build on to this to push for title challenge. Look at now losing League Cup and EL final under Klopp. You are in CL, but someone like Coutinho prefer moving to Barcelona even if he is not eligible to play CL for the time being, but settles for domestic cup game and being rotated in La Liga which already within reach.
So it all comes to ambition. If your ambition is just taking part in competition and enjoying the moment, then sure CL qualification should be enough. If you're trying to build a team to challenge with the aim to win, then your ambition is to win as much as possible, small trophy or not.
Wenger took advantage of the brainwashed mass, both Arsenal fan satisfactory about CL qualification and PL fans' acceptance, for the settlement for medoriocity. Wenger would have got the sacking years back in other teams before he could take the advantage of SAF's retirement to overtake him in the most won FA Cup manager (yes, SAF ain't all about PL when it comes to his drive for success). Wenger took advantage of teams ain't giving FA Cup the proper respect. Look at L'pool history, they still won the most League Cup. So what is with this new thinking about not respecting domestic Cup just for CL qualification. Ain't it boiled down to money just like the businessmen who took over PL want?
The team that challenged for the title in 13/14 was hugely different to the one that won the Carling Cup in 2012. Mignolet, Sterling, Coutinho, Sturridge, Sakho, Allen were not part of the squad back in 2012. I don't think there's any correlation between winning domestic trophies and then challenging for the title.
Maybe it is down to the money involved, but there is no glamour, prestige or real sense of achievement in winning domestic cups nowadays. They are very much an afterthought.
1. Just prove my point regarding the money is all the power try to push the agenda. It's not about making strong teams possible. Reason Bayern, Madrid, Barcelona are able to sign similar quality for cheaper. In the end overpaying cut any edge in the extra income.
2. This comes in hand with point 1. In the end it's about winning. Arsenal revenue goes the different way to the stature of their club in recent time. They become a joke in CL despite all the qualification. It boils down to ambition which is my point.
3. Us when we're not in CL and . Sure Tottenham did well with their resource in recent year but in term of attraction, the myth is clearly busted. The stature in point 2, is built in her before, not because an immediate CL qualification.
Your question is silly. It's the league system. How can you compare a domestic Cup to Championship? I meant who the feck count winning Championship as actual trophy? If anything, the so called big clubs have been looking for Super League for a while. They ain't exactly interested to have someone like Stoke taking a cut of the league overall revenue.
Skertl, Gerrard, Henderson, Luis Suarez, Glen Johnson, Jose Enquire still rake in significant minutes in your title
I am not saying winning domestic cups would boost your chance of challenging for the title, but raising your ambition, building winning mentality (try to win every thing insight) can ulitize winning domestic cups. I am not sure about leagues in smaller countries, but teams who win more league titles more than not top in domestic Cup tally in according to top European leagues. That's why I am not buying to how those who promote for top4-6 in PL story. Yes PL top 6 have the teams to win the title given the right circumstances. However, in a season, there has been not much a title challenge but one team run away with the league. Domestic cups in England being made less prestigious by these men in power to push the mass into their scheme of money making paradise away from what football really is about. Winning domestic cups give little help. At top level, little margin is a long way, and ambitious teams would do anything to gain that extra bit. Fail to heed that and settle for medoricity has been the problem in recent time.
You don't actually know that though tbf,
.Difficult to deny that they do play some very good stuff atm. In contrast to their long distinguished history of being as dull as ditchwater (apart from the Barnes-Beardsley 1988 edition of their total domination era) <--- chief scorer there was that 'orrible hair-ruffling bellend Aldridge though,
.But credit where it's due, I suppose.
Looking like they will finish above us too atm, innit?
(thought I might as well WUM both sides while I'm here)
Embarrassing comments here by some Liverpool fans.
Grim acceptance of their clubs demise that their acceptance of attacking football is now a measure of success of the club.
How far they have fallen even in the estimation of their own fans.
Even under fergie Liverpool were a much more attacking team than united at times think the spice boy era. United fans opinions on fergie era is also greatly exaggerated fergie was never afraid to stifle a game to win. The thought that we only played attacking football is absolute nonsense. Winning was the number one priority and always should be. Some of our runs in the champions league were as dour as dour could be
Grim acceptance of their clubs demise that their acceptance of attacking football is now a measure of success of the club.
How far they have fallen even in the estimation of their own fans.
Even under fergie Liverpool were a much more attacking team than united at times think the spice boy era. United fans opinions on fergie era is also greatly exaggerated fergie was never afraid to stifle a game to win. The thought that we only played attacking football is absolute nonsense. Winning was the number one priority and always should be. Some of our runs in the champions league were as dour as dour could be
Qualifying for the CL is basically free money even if you get knocked out early
We Liverpool fans have made a career out of bragging about our glorious, trophy-laden, history. Now suddenly silverware isn't important anymore ?
Yeah, OK.
Yeah, OK.
Of course silverware is important and I'd gladly trade a year of attracting football for a year playing shite but winning the Premier League, don't get me wrong. It's just that I'm very happy we do play such attractive football even though it hasn't translated in trophies so far. I hardly miss any game while I can assure you it'd be a chore for me to sit through every United game the last four years if I see them play from time to time, so fecking dull and uninspiring.
Maybe that's because you only tune into the games where there's a chance we'll drop points, ie the big games, which will be often be tight or we'll simply come out 2nd best like against Spurs recently. To form an opinion that every United game is dull inspiring based on the very few games you choose to tune into, is stupid.
They get knocked out the FA Cup every year by shit teams because of Klopp's general flawed approach so they wont win the cup anyway. Getting knocked out by West Ham, Wolves and West Brom in consecutive years is not a coincidence. Struggling against teams like Plymouth etc as well. Media won't criticise him though.
Where is his attacking football to break these teams down? Seems to disappear when they cant just press a higher line and win it higher up the pitch.
All of this 'great attacking' play is redundant as it sacrifices too much of the defensive side to a point where they don't win anything. If Klopp is forced to balance the team he would get exposed. If they dont win anything the next two years Liverpool fans will probably accept he is flawed.
Where is his attacking football to break these teams down? Seems to disappear when they cant just press a higher line and win it higher up the pitch.
All of this 'great attacking' play is redundant as it sacrifices too much of the defensive side to a point where they don't win anything. If Klopp is forced to balance the team he would get exposed. If they dont win anything the next two years Liverpool fans will probably accept he is flawed.
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That's why I said "from time to time". I've also seen you play some nice football, although still less exciting than ours imo. If I read some of the complaints and (over)reactions on here, I think my sample size is big enough to form some kind of opinion on your general style of play. I'll admit I watch less than half of your games in full though.
There is no hiding from being knocked out of the FA Cup before the 5th round under Klopp. The first two were with weakened teams, the latter was a case of being beaten by the better team on the night. Returning to the West Ham and Wolves exits, we were involved in League Cup semi’s at that time and because the squad was lacking both in numbers and quality, we came up short. At that stage of development, it is understandable.
Your question; Is Klopp flawed? Klopp has a system of play and he has implemented it from day one without having the appropriate personnel to actually play it effectively. And so he wont play a holding 6 when our midfield and defence are simply not good enough to defend as single units. This results in anything from brilliant games to brilliant collapses. Fortunately for Klopp, he’ll get time at Liverpool and rightly so too. He is a perfect manager for Liverpool and for our owners FSG.
But all managers have blind spots - I think United have better players than we have yet Mourinho doesn’t trust them to let them play football. A more positive manager would have you closer to City than us imo.
Draws to Exeter and Plymouth as well? Is there not a pattern here? You were then knocked out of the league cup by Southampton. A team we then beat in the final. Your players are good enough to beat these teams.
Did Mourinho inherit an appropriate team? He still won 2 trophies and has progressed the team, is still in the FA Cup, and sits in second atm. There isn't any excuse for Liverpool to struggle against poor opposition in the cups with the players they have. Are we going to act like games like West Brom are one offs? The week before you lost to Swansea?
You are exactly right, and it is gutting to get eliminated by dross so often.
I got a temporary ban on RAWK for daring to criticise after we were dumped out of the FA Cup at Home to struggling Baggies.
We can all agree that Pool stands little chance of progressing to the Final of the CL but dammit the FA Cup was a possibility at least.
That defeat irritated me more than the Swansea one tbh, they have the new manager bounce and just did a number on us.
Maybe next year eh?
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You are such a WUM. The only thing you ever post on Liverpool is overt criticism and slander (as in it's clearly incorrect, or poorly researched, BS).
To answer your post (I really shouldn't descend to your level but still ... I have a few minutes to spare and you deserve to have your arse smacked) United have one of the deepest and most expensive squads in history, Liverpool don't - go past the top 15-16 players and we are struggling, that's relevant whether you want to admit it or not.
Why mention our losses and then in the same breath go on to talk about your love for the achievements of your glorified leader ? We've lost fewer than United this season. So what are your excuses for losing to Newcastle, Bristol City & Huddersfield then ?
Is it about the price of the players or the quality we had when Jose came in? Only world class player we had was de Gea and top players you can argue were Martial and Mata. We signed Ibra on a free, Bailly, Mkhi and Pogba went and won two trophies in his first season and have progressed this season. Ibra, Bailly, Pogba have missed large chunks of this season as well. We added Matic and Lukaku to replace Ibra and have improved.
Newcastle, Bristol and Huddersfield are all away games and we have problems with the press as I have admitted on here before. Liverpool seem to struggle with teams that sit deep. That’s why in the cup they struggle. Why do they struggle against teams that sit deep? Because Klopp’s system is based off pressing and winning it high up the pitch. When teams sit off all this magical attacking football dissapears. Still, there is no excuse to not be beating these teams. You have better players than them.
Meanwhile, when teams sit deep against us this season at Old Trafford for example, we break them down. This wasn't the case last year. Clear progression.
You can talk about losses all you want. You are below us in the table, got knocked out the FA Cup by a shit team as well. Getting knocked out and struggling against shit teams for three years in the cup is not a coincidence. It’s also not just the losses. It’s the manner of the losses. All pretty similar if you watch the games.
Mourinho is building a balanced side. Klopp isn’t.
You are exactly right, and it is gutting to get eliminated by dross so often.
I got a temporary ban on RAWK for daring to criticise after we were dumped out of the FA Cup at Home to struggling Baggies.
We can all agree that Pool stands little chance of progressing to the Final of the CL but dammit the FA Cup was a possibility at least.
That defeat irritated me more than the Swansea one tbh, they have the new manager bounce and just did a number on us.
Maybe next year eh?
I personally feel like this issue against teams sitting deep is on Klopp. Yes you guys attack well when teams sit higher up the pitch, but you cant just rely on that to win consistently. It means if these shit teams just sit deep forever you will never win anything. Does that not make the approach flawed?
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