Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

[Terranova]

Said them, about a week ago? Mike Verweij (who I’ve been told is very much gospel for Ajax news) said they put a price of €50m on the player — now the price of the brick has gone up by €10m?

No it has not. Price always has been 50 to 60 million, with 50 million the fixed price. But the 60m is including addons according to his latest rumour. So nothing much has changed

 

[Josh 76]

I read an article the other day, that Untied are really putting all the eggs in one basket allowing ETH to hand pick players who fit his style of game. If ETH is not a success, United are stacked with ETH players who might not be good enough for the next coach. Would Martinez be one of them?

Personally I am in favour of allowing the new coach to pick his players, but can understand the stand point in this article.

A coach that has never played or managed in the PL, buying players who have never played in the PL.

If it goes wrong, we may not recover from this for years!

 

[andersj]

I think it's down to an eye test. How well he controls the ball, moves with it, and passes it. How tight, smooth and accurate he is with them.

I agree. But I also think it it is worth checking against stats.

 

[Adam-Utd]

A coach that has never played or managed in the PL, buying players who have never played in the PL.

If it goes wrong, we may not recover from this for years!

We still haven't recovered from 90% of Mourinho's buys.

I dont' think you can go wrong with aiming at good technical footballers.

 

[Fortitude]

I read an article the other day, that Untied are really putting all the eggs in one basket allowing ETH to hand pick players who fit his style of game. If ETH is not a success, United are stacked with ETH players who might not be good enough for the next coach. Would Martinez be one of them?

Personally I am in favour of allowing the new coach to pick his players, but can understand the stand point in this article.

But this is what happens when a squad is left in such disrepair and also has a scouting network that you might think wise for a manager with his balls in a vice not to trust initially.

We're changing our setup etc. But that doesn't mean anything to ten Hag in the here and now with a failed squad, further weakened from what it was last season. The guy wants trusted players to get him up and running, plus he has to purge the negativity and cliques and fill that void with the energy and character he wants, which again is where trusted personnel come into it.

Our scouts etc. will form a working relationship with the manager over time, but right now, why should or would he trust anything about them?

Being left with a surplus of his players should he not work out is a catch 22, but when you're bent over a barrel with diminishing options, going with the manager over the barely established new network isn't a hard decision to make, I don't think. Going forward, it'll obviously change and I doubt he'll be allowed such autonomy again unless those buys of his are roaring successes.

 

[El-Manos]

We’d be ne tal to pay that price to be honest. Ajax are taking the piss a bit here.

 

[Brophs]

That price looks daft for a guy of 24 coming out of the Dutch league. He’ll need to be really good to justify it.

 

[pocco]

I never realised the Dutch league players were so expensive and yet the league isn’t that good.....strange!

They're only expensive now because Ajax have been pillaged for players on the cheap already. They want to keep what they have now or probably make enough money to offset some of their losses on other sales.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We still haven't recovered from 90% of Mourinho's buys.

I dont' think you can go wrong with aiming at good technical footballers.

Mourinho was nothing compared to Ole. LvG was arguably worse, too!

Actually they were all as bad as each other in a way. I really thought we'd stopped giving total control to the managers off of that, but seems not.

 

[Massive Spanner]

That price looks daft for a guy of 24 coming out of the Dutch league. He’ll need to be really good to justify it.

I dunno, is the Dutch league any weaker than the Portuguese league? Liverpool just broke their transfer record for a player from it.

 

[VP89]

I dunno, is the Dutch league any weaker than the Portuguese league? Liverpool just broke their transfer record for a player from it.

Yeah but striker premiums and he did smash a lot of goals. Even then, their purchase was deemed massive.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yeah but striker premiums and he did smash a lot of goals. Even then, their purchase was deemed massive.

Plenty of examples of players coming from there that cost a bomb though. Felix, for example.

€50m would be a hell of a lot for a CB, though, granted. Antony I could somewhat understand as an attacker who has really impressed.

But Ajax are wealthy and don't really need the money, and have already sold a few this summer, and lost their incredibly influential manager. Understandable from their perspective at least.

 

[Terranova]

They're only expensive now because Ajax have been pillaged for players on the cheap already. They want to keep what they have now or probably make enough money to offset some of their losses on other sales.

Ajax haven't been pillaged and haven't got losses on sales

I dunno, is the Dutch league any weaker than the Portuguese league? Liverpool just broke their transfer record for a player from it.

Not weaker, stronger.

 

[Infra-red]

I dunno, is the Dutch league any weaker than the Portuguese league? Liverpool just broke their transfer record for a player from it.

About the same, according to the UEFA coefficient rankings:

Pos	Country	Pts
1	England	106.641​
2	Spain	96.141​
3	Italy	76.902​
4	Germany	75.213​
5	France	60.081​
6	Portugal	53.382​
7	Netherlands	49.3​

The association club coefficients are based on the results of each association's clubs in the five previous UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League seasons.

https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2022

 

[groovyalbert]

Isn't Pau Torres supposed to be available for around 40m? Surely we're at the point where he's a more viable option than Martinez for 60m.

The annoying thing is, Ajax will definitely drop their demands once one of us or Arsenal move on. So it's a bit of a stand-off between the three clubs right now. Neither us nor Arsenal will want to blink first.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Mourinho was nothing compared to Ole. LvG was arguably worse, too!

Actually they were all as bad as each other in a way. I really thought we'd stopped giving total control to the managers off of that, but seems not.

The point being you can buy all sorts of different style players, but you need to aim for the same style coaches.

What Mourinho wanted and want LVG wanted were very, very different.

if ETH doesn't work out then we need to go for the next ETH. etc etc.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Isn't Pau Torres supposed to be available for around 40m? Surely we're at the point where he's a more viable option than Martinez for 60m.

The annoying thing is, Ajax will definitely drop their demands once one of us or Arsenal move on. So it's a bit of a stand-off between the three clubs right now. Neither us nor Arsenal will want to blink first.

If Bayern were after him, they'd ask for 30m if Daddy pleases, bend over and spread their buttcheeks.

 

[VP89]

Isn't Pau Torres supposed to be available for around 40m? Surely we're at the point where he's a more viable option than Martinez for 60m.

The annoying thing is, Ajax will definitely drop their demands once one of us or Arsenal move on. So it's a bit of a stand-off between the three clubs right now. Neither us nor Arsenal will want to blink first.

I can't see Torres fitting into ETHs system any better than our current options. Martinez looks a very proactive defender.

 

[Castia]

For 60m Euro you want a top class defender. Has he got the potential to be a top player? Genuine question I’ve seen little of him.

 

[groovyalbert]

I can't see Torres fitting into ETHs system any better than our current options. Martinez looks a very proactive defender.

I agree, and my concern with Torres is that he has excelled in a partnership with Abiol, a type of defender we don't have.

But if we're wanting to avoid being taken for a ride in the market, then forking out a similar amount for Martinez that's being quoted for De Ligt is not the way to alter that perception.

 

[Terranova]

About the same, according to the UEFA coefficient rankings:

Pos	Country	Pts
1	England	106.641​
2	Spain	96.141​
3	Italy	76.902​
4	Germany	75.213​
5	France	60.081​
6	Portugal	53.382​
7	Netherlands	49.3​

The association club coefficients are based on the results of each association's clubs in the five previous UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League seasons.

https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2022

That is last seasons rankings btw. The Netherlands is now 2 points ahead of Portugal and 2 behind France

UEFA Country Ranking 2023 (kassiesa.net) <-- pretty much the best site if you want to know anything coefficient based

 

[Chief123]

A coach that has never played or managed in the PL, buying players who have never played in the PL.

If it goes wrong, we may not recover from this for years!

Well it’s gone wrong for the last 10 years already, so we are trying to recover from this for years already! What we’ve done so far hasn’t worked, so we’ve not really got much to lose right?

 

[Infra-red]

That is last seasons rankings btw. The Netherlands is now 2 points ahead of Portugal and 2 behind France

UEFA Country Ranking 2023 (kassiesa.net) <-- pretty much the best site if you want to know anything coefficient based

Thanks.

 

[Fortitude]

That is last seasons rankings btw. The Netherlands is now 2 points ahead of Portugal and 2 behind France

UEFA Country Ranking 2023 (kassiesa.net) <-- pretty much the best site if you want to know anything coefficient based

Has there been a net increase in the price of Eredivisie exports over the last few years?

What has the trend been post the astronomical sales of De Ligt and De Jong?

 

[Terranova]

Has there been a net increase in the price of Eredivisie exports over the last few years?

What has the trend been post the astronomical sales of De Ligt and De Jong?

Kinda yes, even the smallest clubs now get a few million for some of their best players. That used to be way less.
Also clubs like Az and Feyenoord now get bigger fees for their players. So in all, there has been an increase

 

[Offside]

Another ballache saga.

 

[DWelbz19]

Has there been a net increase in the price of Eredivisie exports over the last few years?

What has the trend been post the astronomical sales of De Ligt and De Jong?

I wouldn’t necessarily say so, looking at the data. Maybe the smaller ones have gone up like Terranova says.

Update: 7 of the top 25 are from 2020 onwards. 13 of the top 50.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ere...id=alle&altersklasse=alle&leihe=&w_s=&zuab=ab

 

[Terranova]

I wouldn’t say so, looking at the data. Maybe the smaller ones have gone up like Terranova says. Of the top 20 transfers, only one of these is post-FDJ/De Ligt (Ziyech in 2020).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_football_transfer_record

Edit: I don’t see Donny in this list, this doesn’t look entirely up to date. Will cross reference with Transfermarkt

Update: 7 of the top 25 are from 2020 onwards. 13 of the top 5.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ere...id=alle&altersklasse=alle&leihe=&w_s=&zuab=ab

That might be because Ajax actually haven't sold any of their better players last year.
Gravenberch is a lower price because of his contract. So the potential Martinez and Antony deals are the last ones since Ziyech and VDB.

 

[DWelbz19]

That might be because Ajax actually haven't sold any of their better players last year.
Gravenberch is a lower price because of his contract. So the potential Martinez and Antony deals are the last ones since Ziyech and VDB.

If he has another good season and starts at the WC, I can anticipate Timber hitting close to the FDJ/De Ligt number too.

Oh and PSV have Sangare and Gakpo to sell at some point. Possibly Madueke in another couple seasons?

 

[pocco]

Ajax haven't been pillaged and haven't got losses on sales

They've lost Mazraoui and Gravenberch for way less than market value and have missed out on good money there. They have sold their CF in Haller too. It's already not a great situation for them as they have a new coach that will want to be able to continue to compete. This is why they are saying 'either pay way above market value or these players stay'. To answer your original point regarding the cost of players from Eredivisie.

 

[Fortitude]

Kinda yes, even the smallest clubs now get a few million for some of their best players. That used to be way less.
Also clubs like Az and Feyenoord now get bigger fees for their players. So in all, there has been an increase

Ok cheers. So this isn't some freak window because we're involved, right?

Talent basically goes for market rate across the division these days?

I'm very surprised at the asking price for Antony, but know so little about how valuation goes in the Eredivisie these days that I keep my mouth shut.

 

[Fortitude]

I wouldn’t necessarily say so, looking at the data. Maybe the smaller ones have gone up like Terranova says.

Update: 7 of the top 25 are from 2020 onwards. 13 of the top 50.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ere...id=alle&altersklasse=alle&leihe=&w_s=&zuab=ab

Cheers. Only just saw this as didn't scroll down past initial Terranova post.

 

[Terranova]

They've lost Mazraoui and Gravenberch for way less than market value and have missed out on good money there. They have sold their CF in Haller too. It's already not a great situation for them as they have a new coach that will want to be able to continue to compete. This is why they are saying 'either pay way above market value or these players stay'. To answer your original point regarding the cost of players from Eredivisie.

They wanted to sell Haller due to him not being that good and now was the time to make a small profit. Mazraoui and Gravenberch are a share, but they already got 2 academy players lined up, so replacing them doesn't cost any money. So not a big deal.

 

[Thelongsleevesofblomqvist]

Mourinho was nothing compared to Ole. LvG was arguably worse, too!

Actually they were all as bad as each other in a way. I really thought we'd stopped giving total control to the managers off of that, but seems not.

Basically United doesnt have an idea of how to play, and try to import it again with Ten Hag.

 

[redcucumber]

I know when Liverpool signed Konate there were significant question marks surrounding his injury record, but it's mental that Martinez could end up going for £15-20m more than him.

 

[Bestietom]

We have bought 2 good technical players in Malacia and Eriksen and will follow up with De Jong and Martinez if we can get them over the line. I like that these are the sort of players Ten Hag is going for, and whatever people think, these players will fit into most managers plans.

 

[pocco]

They wanted to sell Haller due to him not being that good and now was the time to make a small profit. Mazraoui and Gravenberch are a share, but they already got 2 academy players lined up, so replacing them doesn't cost any money. So not a big deal.

They obviously don't see it that way given the stance they are taking now. On top of all of the above they have lost ETH also, let's not forget. I hope you are right and it's no big deal, as I would like to see Antony signed. Looking very unlikely now though and will be the deal that we can't get done and will cost us, in my opinion. We need a RW as much as a CM, unless Amad and Pellistri will be given chances (unlikely).

 

[Terranova]

They obviously don't see it that way given the stance they are taking now. On top of all of the above they have lost ETH also, let's not forget. I hope you are right and it's no big deal, as I would like to see Antony signed. Looking very unlikely now though and will be the deal that we can't get done and will cost us, in my opinion. We need a RW as much as a CM, unless Amad and Pellistri will be given chances (unlikely).

They absolutely do. They just don't want to lose Martinez and Antony. The prices aren't inflated because they need the money, the prices are exactly right for what they want. High enough that they'll be satisfied any way if anyone is crazy/desperate enough to buy them. Which apparently United is.

 

[pocco]

They absolutely do. They just don't want to lose Martinez and Antony. The prices aren't inflated because they need the money, the prices are exactly right for what they want. High enough that they'll be satisfied any way if anyone is crazy/desperate enough to buy them. Which apparently United is.

Never said they need the money. Just that it is inflated because a) they don't want to lose more players, especially their best players and b) it helps offset cheap losses in other positions and allows them to finance further purchases to find their replacements too. This was in response to the poster that looked at the prices for Antony and Martinez and said he didn't realise this was the price for Eredivisie talent. It isn't, it's just the circumstances of Ajax that has led to these prices.

 

[A-man]

A coach that has never played or managed in the PL, buying players who have never played in the PL.

If it goes wrong, we may not recover from this for years!

Yes, this could be the case. I think it is a risk worth taking, as it finally looks like we have a manager with a clear idea how he wants to play.

We still haven't recovered from 90% of Mourinho's buys.

I dont' think you can go wrong with aiming at good technical footballers.

For sure it can go wrong if they are not good enough.

But this is what happens when a squad is left in such disrepair and also has a scouting network that you might think wise for a manager with his balls in a vice not to trust initially.

We're changing our setup etc. But that doesn't mean anything to ten Hag in the here and now with a failed squad, further weakened from what it was last season. The guy wants trusted players to get him up and running, plus he has to purge the negativity and cliques and fill that void with the energy and character he wants, which again is where trusted personnel come into it.

Our scouts etc. will form a working relationship with the manager over time, but right now, why should or would he trust anything about them?

Being left with a surplus of his players should he not work out is a catch 22, but when you're bent over a barrel with diminishing options, going with the manager over the barely established new network isn't a hard decision to make, I don't think. Going forward, it'll obviously change and I doubt he'll be allowed such autonomy again unless those buys of his are roaring successes.

I agree we are changing setup and also that the will form a relationship with the scouts over time. As I wrote I think this is the way to go as there is no point in signing ETH if he doesn't get the players he wants to enable his football. Hopefully he is good enough coach to also train and coach some of the players in to it. However letting him pick all new signings on his own is rather risky, and I feel that every failure becomes more and more costly for the club.