Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

[Adnan]

 

[ash_86]

Feckers #FreeLisandro

 

[copen1945]

The price is going up by the day. They will want the Maguire money soon enough.

 

[andersj]

So they demand a little bit more for Martinez and a little less for Antony probably? Not stupid. Not very fair, but they can do that if they know we want both. And they could easily justify it, Martinez being player of the year, chased by two clubs.

I would imagine they will sell both for €120 mill. And I would think that is fair.

 

[hellhunter]

So they demand a little bit more for Martinez and a little less for Antony probably? Not stupid. Not very fair, but they can do that if they know we want both. And they could easily justify it, Martinez being player of the year, chased by two clubs.

I would imagine they will sell both for €120 mill. And I would think that is fair.

Only if you're an Ajax fan

 

[DWelbz19]

I get that they don’t want to sell at all and they’ve already lost so many key players, but I thought Ajax were a reasonable club. €50m is more than fair enough (would be the third highest transfer after Frenkie and De Ligt), and the player clearly wants the move.

 

[AjaxCunian]

United should probably move on, unless they want both.

But I can't get how it's so fine and normal when Porto/Benfica, English smaller teams do it but it's crazy when Ajax doesnt just give their players away.

Changing the asking price is weird though if true.

 

[Mainoldo]

Pau Torres. F them. How can you demand something then go up once it’s reached.

We shouldn’t be getting into this in Murtough’s first summer. Don’t make them mug the club off. Let Arsenal pay that.

 

[sillwuka]

So they want 55 million euros + 5 mil add on...

 

[mu4c_20le]

120m for two players in the dutch league is amazing. And DVB was also 'CL proven' before anyone uses that card.

 

[andersj]

Only if you're an Ajax fan

A bit too much for Lisandro, but not bad at all for Antony.

Liverpool just agreed close to £80 mill for Darwin. Real Madrid paid even more for Tchouameni. The quoted price for Richarlison and Raphinha is around £60 mill.

Young talents come with a premium. £65 mill for Antony is fair in my opinion.

Same for £40 mill for Martinez. A fee similar to Ake. Much less than the price for de Ligt (half?).

In total, if we get both of them for £105 mill (€120 mill) I would think that is fair.

 

[wolvored]

Didnt they want e50 mill upfront anyway plus add ons which would probably end up as e60 mill? Just seems the same but they want it all upfront. Basically at this stage we should either pay up or walk away. We cant have 2 transfers lasting all transfer window. I cant see us getting Antony as well at this rate unless we part with e130 mill at least.

 

[UnitedFire]

120m for two players in the dutch league is amazing. And DVB was also 'CL proven' before anyone uses that card.

I just don't see why the Board would sanction that or why Ten Hag would insist.

Martinez wasn't even the first pick from Ajax. Does he really think they are both worth that much.

I'm very much worried that Ten Hag is underestimating the step up in class to the Prem.

Last thing we need is over priced and likely over payed replacements who don't work out. But our scouts generally seem to be failing so hard to rely on them.

 

[CM]

If that's really the case we should move on to Pau Torres. We're not so desperate for a defender that we need to be held to ransom.

 

[Judas]

Didn't think even this one would be a wrestling match.

 

[Plant0x84]

I'm glad he's turned up to get on with his job. I think players who down tools and behave like petulant children to get their own way are dick heads and should be avoided. He can still respectfully request that Ajax listen to our offer and allow him to leave

100% this. No need to get stupid about it, be respectful and do it in the right way.

 

[DevilRed]

This one looks like it will get done soon.

 

[Fortitude]

I get that they don’t want to sell at all and they’ve already lost so many key players, but I thought Ajax were a reasonable club. €50m is more than fair enough (would be the third highest transfer after Frenkie and De Ligt), and the player clearly wants the move.

Says who? He's their player of the season, and by all accounts, a massive presence and influence. We're not just taking talent from their perspective, we're also swiping a fair chunk of character, too.

If they put a price on both the tangible (replacing his quality) and the intangible (what they're losing in terms of heartbeat and leadership), it's going to look a little different to the generic talent in, talent out formula.

I guess if they were an intentional Dortmund-esque farm, it'd be different, but I mostly get that they genuinely don't want to lose these players, and if they are to do so, they won't be getting the short end of any deal.

The other feeling with Ajax is if they have the successors in-house, they are more amicable than if they themselves will have to go back into the marketplace. To that end, it would be interesting to see not only the ability of the player they replace Martinez with but also the character of said player.

 

[Isotope]

This deal should be much easier than Chelsea getting Sterling from City for £47.5m.

 

[roonster09]

Verweij mentioned in his article "On the other hand , there is a chance that such a high bid for Martinez will never come again. And if in South America the perception emerges that the Johan Cruijff arenaA is no longer the ideal stepping stone to the European top influential businessmen with big talents will pass by Ajax door"

Will be interesting to see how this transfer deal goes.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Funny how attitudes to players change when it's to the benefit of your own team

The point is we offered them what they asked for, now they're saying oh erm.... ok great now raise it 10m. Where does it end?

60m euros is a lot for a defender.

 

[AndySmith1990]

This deal should be much easier than Chelsea getting Sterling from City for £47.5m.

Context. City are stacked and can afford to let Sterling leave. Martinez is an important player for Ajax

 

[Adisa]

Thought they wanted €50m?

 

[DWelbz19]

Says who? He's their player of the season, and by all accounts, a massive presence and influence. We're not just taking talent from their perspective, we're also swiping a fair chunk of character, too.

If they put a price on both the tangible (replacing his quality) and the intangible (what they're losing in terms of heartbeat and leadership), it's going to look a little different to the generic talent in, talent out formula.

I guess if they were an intentional Dortmund-esque farm, it'd be different, but I mostly get that they genuinely don't want to lose these players, and if they are to do so, they won't be getting the short end of any deal.

The other feeling with Ajax is if they have the successors in-house, they are more amicable than if they themselves will have to go back into the marketplace. To that end, it would be interesting to see not only the ability of the player they replace Martinez with but also the character of said player.

Said them, about a week ago? Mike Verweij (who I’ve been told is very much gospel for Ajax news) said they put a price of €50m on the player — now the price of the brick has gone up by €10m?

Also, just general market valuation? As I said in my initial post, this would put him as the third highest Dutch league transfer of all time. The two above have a slightly higher premium due to making Europa finals and CL semi’s. Slightly inferior level CBs have gone for a wee bit less — Sven Botman (L1 winner at Lille) €37m and City’s Ake will be around €45m. €50m is totally a fair offer

Don’t get me wrong; no club *has* to sell a player, and they’re totally okay to keep him if they want. I just personally think they’d be wiser to let a player who wants to leave go for a fee they probably won’t get as high at next season. Also disagree with your Dortmund point — Ajax don’t intentionally sign players to sell for maximum profit like Dortmund do, but they’re definitely a club that has and will sell a few key players season in season out.

 

[Isotope]

Context. City are stacked and can afford to let Sterling leave. Martinez is an important player for Ajax

That's true. But then, we can just use take-it or leave-it deal then, with deadlines. It's easier and better for both sides, isn't it?

Chelsea just changed ownership with new staff in place, and had to get one of City best players on that price. A transfer between rich rivals.

EDIT: anyway, you're right that in that context, Chelsea has advantage.

 

[Delano]

VdS has stopped giving us mates rates hasn't he?

Ajax are fleecing us.

 

[UnitedFire]

Context. City are stacked and can afford to let Sterling leave. Martinez is an important player for Ajax

Is any player really important for Ajax. They can just funnel the next best talents and make more money on them..

City could horde an oversized squad!

 

[Hammondo]

A bit too much for Lisandro, but not bad at all for Antony.

Liverpool just agreed close to £80 mill for Darwin. Real Madrid paid even more for Tchouameni. The quoted price for Richarlison and Raphinha is around £60 mill.

Young talents come with a premium. £65 mill for Antony is fair in my opinion.

Same for £40 mill for Martinez. A fee similar to Ake. Much less than the price for de Ligt (half?).

In total, if we get both of them for £105 mill (€120 mill) I would think that is fair.

How do you come to that conclusion for Antony? He's not done much to prove he's worth that much.

 

[andersj]

How do you come to that conclusion for Antony? He's not done much to prove he's worth that much.

I’m not a big fan myself. But he is just as close to being a regular for Brazil as Richarlison and Raphinha. Considerably younger. A player like Darwin is no more of a regular for Uruguay.

I also think people are being put of by his goal and assist stat. 9/8 and 8/4 goals/assist in Eredivise looks «poor». But it is actually 17 goals and 12 assists in 3510 minutes. A goal/assist from open play every 121 min. That is not bad.

Furthermore, looking closer at his stats at Ajax, it becomes clear that he does so much more than scoring goals and assisting. He is probably one of their most progressive players, and in the CL his «overall stats» are hugely impressive. Even comparing his numbers to players like Mane/Foden.

In terms of;

- How progressive he is (both carries and passing)
- How often he moves the ball into the penalty area (both passes completed and carries)
- How often he recovers the ball,
- How rarely he lose the ball,

He is among the best attackers/wingers in the CL and great even compared to the likes of Foden/Mane.

If Antony had proven much more than he has, Real Madrid, Bayern, Chelsea and Liverpool would be all over him (left footed RW is in high demand!). But Antony might be at a point where he will do that in a year or two. To get him 20 % below Nunez seems fair to me.

 

[Fortitude]

Said them, about a week ago? Mike Verweij (who I’ve been told is very much gospel for Ajax news) said they put a price of €50m on the player — now the price of the brick has gone up by €10m?

Also, just general market valuation? As I said in my initial post, this would put him as the third highest Dutch league transfer of all time. The two above have a slightly higher premium due to making Europa finals and CL semi’s. Slightly inferior level CBs have gone for a wee bit less — Sven Botman (L1 winner at Lille) €37m and City’s Ake will be around €45m. €50m is totally a fair offer

Don’t get me wrong; no club *has* to sell a player, and they’re totally okay to keep him if they want. I just personally think they’d be wiser to let a player who wants to leave go for a fee they probably won’t get as high at next season. Also disagree with your Dortmund point.

GB has said we've incentivised what we've offered making it up to what they want eventually, where they want that amount flat - if that's the case (I haven't read the terms), we've not met their conditions, and I think it opens things up to their side, too.

Your point about general market valuation for Dutch league products is a valid one under normal circumstances, but I am not so sure it's commonplace to be decimated and then sell more of your very best players - maybe things pan out differently if we went straight in for him as the window opened as opposed to now where a premium is more likely to be set. What's interesting to me is it seems we aren't going to cook Ajax's books and aid them with cutting out Antony's former club by buying both at the same time and then stating Martinez cost far more of the two... If we are serious, it's going to be the case that one of the two deals will be astronomical by Eredivisie standards regardless.

Re. Your last paragraph, the longer we leave it, the higher the price will be; it's not just about the sale, but their replacement for the player and if they have one lined up and what his cost (or not, if he's academy) will be. Any club with stacks of cash the world knows about is going to be charged more than usual for talent, so who knows what they are trying to secure in the meantime and how much that'll cost - a big pot of money instead of replacing with equivocal talent is setting them back in many ways except financial, so it's not hard to see why they want to be renumerated for all the bother and disruption, I think. They're also warding off other suitors with this stance, as a statement, it says leave us alone or be prepared to pay out the nose if you come a sniffing.

You think Ajax and Dortmund have similar M O's? Ajax are preyed upon and can't keep hold of their talent beyond a certain point; Dortmund actively seek the cream of the young crop to sell on in the future with the carrot of immediate first-team football. What do you think they share apart from eventually having their teams gutted every other season or so?

 

[Hammondo]

I’m not a big fan myself. But he is just as close to being a regular for Brazil as Richarlison and Raphinha. Considerably younger. A player like Darwin is no more of a regular for Uruguay.

I also think people are being put of by his goal and assist stat. 9/8 and 8/4 goals/assist in Eredivise looks «poor». But it is actually 17 goals and 12 assists in 3510 minutes. A goal/assist from open play every 121 min. That is not bad.

Furthermore, looking closer at his stats at Ajax, it becomes clear that he does so much more than scoring goals and assisting. He is probably one of their most progressive players, and in the CL his «overall stats» are hugely impressive. Even comparing his numbers to players like Mane/Foden.

If Antony had proven much more than he has, Real Madrid, Bayern, Chelsea and Liverpool would be all over him (left footed RW is in high demand!). But Antony might be at a point where he will do that in a year or two. To get him 20 % below Nunez seems fair to me.

Is he technically good enough to be that kind of player for us?

 

[Laurencio]

Verweij mentioned in his article "On the other hand , there is a chance that such a high bid for Martinez will never come again. And if in South America the perception emerges that the Johan Cruijff arenaA is no longer the ideal stepping stone to the European top influential businessmen with big talents will pass by Ajax door"

Will be interesting to see how this transfer deal goes.

Oooh, that's an interesting take. That would be far more costly for Ajax than not holding out for another €10M.

 

[Giggsyking]

They must be mad for asking that kind of money. He is not worth 60m euros. Even at 50 this is too much.

 

[Kingslayer18]

Your response worries me, this is a player ten hag has worked with over a number of years. If he wants him then i trust him.

So just cause a coach has worked with a player, this means that he should be acquired at all costs? This is a nonsensical take. Moyes worked with Felliani and brought him over, we can all agree he was not a Manchester United type player and a mistake.

 

[sewey89]

Why is Martinez in that photo twice?

 

[andersj]

Is he technically good enough to be that kind of player for us?

Hard to tell. Always seems to be a topic when we are linked with a player. Also with Darwin. How do we know?

His technique looks fine in my opinion. Sloppy at times, but that is more about decision making. How do you measure his technique? Probably by looking at his stats. And they are great in terms of dribbles, miscontrols etc.

 

[Hammondo]

Hard to tell. Always seems to be a topic when we are linked with a player. Also with Darwin. How do we know?

His technique looks fine in my opinion. Sloppy at times, but that is more about decision making. How do you measure his technique? Probably by looking at his stats. And they are great in terms of dribbles, miscontrols etc.

I think it's down to an eye test. How well he controls the ball, moves with it, and passes it. How tight, smooth and accurate he is with them.

 

[A-man]

I read an article the other day, that Untied are really putting all the eggs in one basket allowing ETH to hand pick players who fit his style of game. If ETH is not a success, United are stacked with ETH players who might not be good enough for the next coach. Would Martinez be one of them?

Personally I am in favour of allowing the new coach to pick his players, but can understand the stand point in this article.

 

[Bondi77]

I never realised the Dutch league players were so expensive and yet the league isn’t that good.....strange!

 

[VP89]

60m EUR is absolutely insane