Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

[Fortitude]

Blind-De Ligt under ETH. Which one is the fast one? Dias-Stones. Which one is the fast one?

You have cover in both of those lines, you also have completely oppressive offenses, which reduces the chances to be hit constructively over the top.

This is how the unwritten rule can be broken, but it is infrequent to say the least.

 

[pocco]

Not many managers take the same strategy and 11 game after game. Journalists get peoples imaginations going with this stuff but in reality lots of players can play beyond 11

ETH doesn't rotate much according to Ajax supporters on here.

 

[Zed 101]

At the same time ETH did not just come to all these conclusions himself, he probably got help from scouts when he was at Ajax.

I may be overestimating things but I would imagine that ETH and all managers of teams in the top leagues would know about most players who play in the top 4 leagues irrespective of any scouting.... I don't imagine that ETH is waiting on any scouts to identify players

 

[RatPack]

For the money Ajax is now demanding for him we need to move on. 50 mill was already to much.

 

[davidmichael]

Reality is none of us know where ETH will play Martinez if we sign him, just because ETH moved Martinez to centre back for Ajax doesn’t mean he doesn’t think he can’t play there for United as ETH is very much known for his tactical flexibility and seeing players in different roles to suit what he wants to do.

I’m 99% certain that Martinez was always a defensive midfielder until moving to Ajax although I could be wrong ? Having an aggressive, heavy pressing, high stamina ball winner who can pass like Martinez in midfield with De Jong would be about as perfectly balanced as we’ve had since Scholes and Carrick 15 years ago.

Some players are naturally brilliant in more than role as I remember Marcel Desailly playing centre back for France but midfield for Milan then there’s Matthias Sammer and more recently Joshua Kimmich so ETH may have seen Martinez as a centre back in Eredivisie but more suited to midfield in the PL.

If Varane is fit and ETH has confirmed Maguire is captain then I’d imagine they’d be first choice although ETH is so tactically flexible and adapts that he could sometimes go 3 at the back or in certain games at home use Martinez as a ball playing centre back when we need to force the game but then Varane/Maguire and De Jong/Martinez as his centre back/centre midfield pairings are solid.

 

[Castia]

At the point when we have at least 2 we can rely on?

You can have prime Cannavaro and Nesta at the back but in a crap system they will be exposed

Our math seems to be to throw centre backs into the squad every summer because we concede goals which is hilarious. We’ve bought a new 40m+ cb in the last 4 summer windows and Martinez will make that 5.

We keep spending huge parts of the budget on the same position

 

[Chief123]

Plenty of high lines have less quick defenders. Your high line depends on the pressing, not on the defenders just running back.

I don’t recall any that have had success. Which high lines with slow defenders have been successful? Genuine question.

It doesn’t matter how good your pressing is, it’s quite easy to play balls in behind a high line with no recovery pace. You can’t press every area of the pitch.

 

[Mickeza]

You have cover in both of those lines, you also have completely oppressive offenses, which reduces the chances to be hit constructively over the top.

This is how the unwritten rule can be broken, but it is infrequent to say the least.

Yes it’s all about controlling possession in the opponents half, not losing the ball in bad areas and pressing/suffocating teams in the opponents half. Pique-Mascherano is another example with little pace. In a Pep/ETH like system fast CBs aren’t needed. You do need an aggressive CB though which is what Martinez is.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

They didn't play in anything like as high a line. We played counter-attacking football at Maguire's best; soaking up pressure deep and hitting on the break. This is optimal for slower defenders.

ten Hag has his men way up the pitch playing aggressive, football. One break of those lines and recovery pace is absolutely vital. So either you don't make those mistakes, or athleticism bails out the backline. Two proactive defenders aren't even positioning themselves to run backwards let alone being too slow to get at a forward if they were already in the optimal position to do so initially.

I doubt the manager will make concessions with what he wants in a backline because it sets the tone for the entire team. I don't know how we'll set up exactly, but I'd bet the backline will be high, proactive and look very inviting to play in behind.

How about this question: when would you admit you are wrong. If Martinez signs and ETHs most used line up includes them over the season, would you accept you probably know less than ETH or would you maintain that it's impossible that we are both looking to sign Martinez and Maguire will be captain

 

[bosnian_red]

Bit of a weird saga this. Our first choice apparently was Timber, then we moved on to Martinez. Martinez apparently on his last contract agreed with them to be fair if an offer from a big league comes in. Ajax sets a feck off price on Martinez, then we meet the feck off price. They then raise the feck off price? Get the feeling they're being purposely difficult with us, maybe because ten hag is now gone, but either way. Usually a good sign when a team doesn't let a player go easily. Though I feel like if Arsenal made our bid they would've accepted it, so i feel like they're bitter about us.

 

[golden_blunder]

You can have prime Cannavaro and Nesta at the back but in a crap system they will be exposed

Our math seems to be to throw centre backs into the squad every summer because we concede goals which is hilarious. We’ve bought a new 40m+ cb in the last 4 summer windows and Martinez will make that 5.

We keep spending huge parts of the budget on the same position

Im not just talking about their horrendous form and individual mistakes
Im also talking about players who can stay fit. Varane clearly can’t, Lindelof has an ongoing back issue

 

[Judas]

I really didn't think this signing would prove to be as tricky as its apparently looking.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I don’t recall any that have had success. Which high lines with slow defenders have been successful? Genuine question.

It doesn’t matter how good your pressing is, it’s quite easy to play balls in behind a high line with no recovery pace. You can’t press every area of the pitch.

Bvb with Hummel's and Subotic, one of the most famous high press teams under klopp

 

[Infra-red]

I really didn't think this signing would prove to be as tricky as its apparently looking.

Probably hasn't been made easier by the fact that we waited until Ajax had lost Mazraoui, Gravenberch, Onana and Haller before making our move.

They don't need the money and probably don't want to lose anyone else, hence the crazy prices quoted for Martinez and Antony.

 

[sglowrider]

ETH doesn't rotate much according to Ajax supporters on here.

I wonder if that's the case with managers who are true believers in their philosophy or how they see the game should be played. Klopp (in the past), Bielsa and now ETH have all been accused of using a small squad.

 

[Mainoldo]

that is a wild assertion...why does maguire being captain negate the need for a CB with a completely different profile and style of play??

If the captain starts he plays next to Maguire. Then have a look at the CBs that will be on the bench. It’s not hard maths.

 

[dinostar77]

Reality is none of us know where ETH will play Martinez if we sign him, just because ETH moved Martinez to centre back for Ajax doesn’t mean he doesn’t think he can’t play there for United as ETH is very much known for his tactical flexibility and seeing players in different roles to suit what he wants to do.

I’m 99% certain that Martinez was always a defensive midfielder until moving to Ajax although I could be wrong ? Having an aggressive, heavy pressing, high stamina ball winner who can pass like Martinez in midfield with De Jong would be about as perfectly balanced as we’ve had since Scholes and Carrick 15 years ago.

Some players are naturally brilliant in more than role as I remember Marcel Desailly playing centre back for France but midfield for Milan then there’s Matthias Sammer and more recently Joshua Kimmich so ETH may have seen Martinez as a centre back in Eredivisie but more suited to midfield in the PL.

If Varane is fit and ETH has confirmed Maguire is captain then I’d imagine they’d be first choice although ETH is so tactically flexible and adapts that he could sometimes go 3 at the back or in certain games at home use Martinez as a ball playing centre back when we need to force the game but then Varane/Maguire and De Jong/Martinez as his centre back/centre midfield pairings are solid.

Martinez is a CB and thats his best position. Thats not my opinion but opinion of argentine journalists who have followed his career to date.

What he offers is tactical flexiblility on the pitch. He can step up from defence, especially in games where we are dominating posession and play in the midfield. Rather than having two CBs especially at home games at the back not really contributing to breaking the opposition down.

Numerous interviews ETH have at ajax which involved questions around martinez, he stated that martinez is a CB and thats his best position.

Also ETH isnt a fan of 3 at the back and hasnt gone back to it since early in his career. Martinez signing would give us tactical flexiblility at CB which is why ETH wants him so badly. Quite easy to see maguire, lindelof, martinez swapped around as partners for varane depending on opposition and fixture.

 

[RkkMan]

Probably hasn't been made easier by the fact that we waited until Ajax had lost Mazraoui, Gravenberch, Onana and Haller before making our move.

They don't need the money and probably don't want to lose anyone else, hence the crazy prices quoted for Martinez and Antony.

Mazaroui, Gravenberch and Onana virtually had one foot out the door before Ten Hag officially left Ajax. They lost Haller when we were working on Timber who was our original top defensive target before LVG intervened.
Little we could have done to prevent this situation

 

[Fortitude]

Yes it’s all about controlling possession in the opponents half, not losing the ball in bad areas and pressing/suffocating teams in the opponents half. Pique-Mascherano is another example with little pace. In a Pep/ETH like system fast CBs aren’t needed. You do need an aggressive CB though which is what Martinez is.

You cannot just omit that they are both natural pressers of the ball, nor can we consider ourselves an oppressive offensive force, where, in all honesty, a lot of conventional, unwritten rules are non-applicable because the opposition are so crushed, fatigued and dispirited, any semblance of functional football goes out of the window for them.

Barcelona of that time, Ajax under ten Hag and any established Pep team, are playing by different rules and can get away with far more 'unconventional' things because of that.

Having your two CB's playing high, both of them being natural hunters of a ball, both being slow in their own ways... that is only going to work if nearly all football is played in the opposition half and all they're doing is recycling passes to the rest if the team. If ten Hag ever establishes such oppressive football with us, do you believe it will be with our current personnel, or that, at the moment, concessions need to be made?

 

[Fortitude]

How about this question: when would you admit you are wrong. If Martinez signs and ETHs most used line up includes them over the season, would you accept you probably know less than ETH or would you maintain that it's impossible that we are both looking to sign Martinez and Maguire will be captain

I have no problem whatsoever with being wrong; I'd love for whatever he does to be a success.

But the suspension of disbelief does not stretch far when it comes to a supposed pairing like that in our team with our personnel and won't until they're out there bossing it.

Varane and <other> is going to look like a common sense CB pairing to most for the reasons stated. Maguire (de facto starter now he's been named captain) and <other> is corralled to the most athletic and talented CB partner we can put him with, or do you disagree with that assertion?

Why would a manager willfully take such an obvious risk in pairing slow with slow, particularly when he doesn't have to (assuming Varane is fit). I don't think he does and we'll see all three of them in the same team, but we'll get our answers soon enough.

 

[allen7]

This will end up like the Tchouameni deal. Like how real overpaid for him, we will do the same for martinez but we will definitely get this deal done.

 

[Leftback99]

I have no problem whatsoever with being wrong; I'd love for whatever he does to be a success.

But the suspension of disbelief does not stretch far when it comes to a supposed pairing like that in our team with our personnel and won't until they're out there bossing it.

Varane and <other> is going to look like a common sense CB pairing to most for the reasons stated. Maguire (de facto starter now he's been named captain) and <other> is corralled to the most athletic and talented CB partner we can put him with, or do you disagree with that assertion?

Why would a manager willfully take such an obvious risk in pairing slow with slow, particularly when he doesn't have to (assuming Varane is fit). I don't think he does and we'll see all three of them in the same team, but we'll get our answers soon enough.

Varane can't be relied on to form any consistent partnership. He's injured again now apparently.

 

[Josh 76]

Well it’s gone wrong for the last 10 years already, so we are trying to recover from this for years already! What we’ve done so far hasn’t worked, so we’ve not really got much to lose right?

It has gone wrong for last 10 years, but most of the players Utd brought in those years were all established players. There was always the chance if it went wrong with the manager, the next manager could put it right.

This time it feels a bit more of a gamble with the players being linked to the club.

 

[Chief123]

It has gone wrong for last 10 years, but most of the players Utd brought in those years were all established players. There was always the chance if it went wrong with the manager, the next manager could put it right.

This time it feels a bit more of a gamble with the players being linked to the club.

I think what’s most important is the profile and ability of a player. It’s natural the manager will focus on players who is familiar with.

I’m not too concerned about most of these players being from the Dutch league. Yes it’s a lesser league but there’s no reason players from there can’t be a success.

Some of our greatest ever players came from that league like Stam and Van Nistelrooy.

 

[Reyoji-Utd]

Never imagine this transfer to be this rollercoaster. The price just keeps going up every time we appraoch their demand. A

And what is it with our posters keep aaking question about if hes a DM or CB and if hes tall enough to head the ball in every 10/15 pages.

 

[Adnan]

Verweij mentioned in his article "On the other hand , there is a chance that such a high bid for Martinez will never come again. And if in South America the perception emerges that the Johan Cruijff arenaA is no longer the ideal stepping stone to the European top influential businessmen with big talents will pass by Ajax door"

Will be interesting to see how this transfer deal goes.

The Ajax fan below said similar 3 days ago.

 

[Terranova]

The Ajax fan below said similar 3 days ago.

But he is very much wrong or at least didn't read carefully enough.
It's known for weeks now that Ajax wanted €50-60m with 50 as a minimal fixed amount. But somewhere for some reason the "media" forgot to mention that part and thought Ajax was asking 50m. It was always 50 + addons, either bonusses or percentage of the next transfer. Nothing has changed, other than the media reporting on it.

 

[Davie Moyes]

But he is very much wrong or at least didn't read carefully enough.
It's known for weeks now that Ajax wanted €50-60m with 50 as a minimal fixed amount. But somewhere for some reason the "media" forgot to mention that part and thought Ajax was asking 50m. It was always 50 + addons, either bonusses or percentage of the next transfer. Nothing has changed, other than the media reporting on it.

That makes sense. I don't think Ajax would shift the goalposts by shifting the asking price. I don't think that's how they operate.

 

[lsd]

I think it's obvious we will play three centre backs and two wing backs

 

[Terranova]

That makes sense. I don't think Ajax would shift the goalposts by shifting the asking price. I don't think that's how they operate.

I think that for some reason the 50m fixed turned into the 50m asking price after a few reposts by the twitter journalists, who only copy each others scoops.
Besides Mike Verweij, the Ajax Tier 1, who posted it is also a massive shit stirrer, who mixes his opinion with actual good scoops. Most Ajax fans learned to ignore the shit stirring he does.

 

[Chief123]

Bvb with Hummel's and Subotic, one of the most famous high press teams under klopp

It’s worrying if that is the best example as they weren’t exactly successful in terms of trophies for a sustained period.

Most successful teams that play a high line have defenders with pace.

 

[Chief123]

I think it's obvious we will play three centre backs and two wing backs

It’s absolutely not obvious. In fact it’s probably the least likely outcome.

Ten Haag is known for preferring the 433 formation and 4231. There’s absolutely nothing to suggest he’s going to suddenly start deploying 3 at the back when all of his success has come by not using this formation.

 

[Davie Moyes]

I think that for some reason the 50m fixed turned into the 50m asking price after a few reposts by the twitter journalists, who only copy each others scoops.
Besides Mike Verweij, the Ajax Tier 1, who posted it is also a massive shit stirrer, who mixes his opinion with actual good scoops. Most Ajax fans learned to ignore the shit stirring he does.

I see what you mean by the description of Verweij. Recently he said something about Ten Hag needs to be careful about destroying his legacy with trying to buy all these Ajax players which we all thought was weird considering we've purchased 0 players from Ajax so far.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Judas]

He's fully dilated and ready to push.

 

[golden_blunder]

But he is very much wrong or at least didn't read carefully enough.
It's known for weeks now that Ajax wanted €50-60m with 50 as a minimal fixed amount. But somewhere for some reason the "media" forgot to mention that part and thought Ajax was asking 50m. It was always 50 + addons, either bonusses or percentage of the next transfer. Nothing has changed, other than the media reporting on it.

Correct. I said a couple of days ago that United gotten to the number 50m by including add-ons. This is not what Ajax are asking for

 

[Laurencio]

It's always funny when they say a player will push for a transfer. What is he going to do? Ask the manager nicely? Officially request a transfer? Stop training (in which case he's not professional enough for us)? What exactly does push for a transfer mean?

 

[Judas]

I am wonderfully inconsistent and a hypocrite when it comes to players kicking up a fuss and striking to get their move to us. Love it, support it, go for it. Obviously if they were doing it to get away from here I'd be fuming.

 

[Trex]

I am wonderfully inconsistent and a hypocrite when it comes to players kicking up a fuss and striking to get their move to us. Love it, support it, go for it. Obviously if they were doing it to get away from here I'd be fuming.

I guess most of us are, but really if a player wants out get a decent/fair fee and let him go.

 

[Strootman's Finger]

I think it's obvious we will play three centre backs and two wing backs

That's not even close to obvious. He's a manager that doesn't play with 3 CBs, at a club that doesn't play with 3 CBs. It may happen as a strategical move a couple times a season, which I doubt, but we won't play with 3 CBs. Not obvious at all, Maguire is shite and Varane is injury prone, those are obvious.