Not sure there's a point in bringing up Maguire. I've acknowledged it about him too that he's not the most mobile or pacey defender, and he isn't great at covering big spaces either...but he has almost everything you'd want in a class CCB, especially in a back 3...whether you're sitting deep, defending your box, or try to play on the front foot and sustain a high line: because contrary to popular opinion, Maguire is actually one of those players that make it much easier for the team to play a high line, and he's definitely not a "liability" and "unsuited" to such a defensive setup. He pins down opposition attackers, even if they're very physical, wins most of his aerial duels with ease, organizes his defense around him to a good standard, reads the game and danger well, and is also able to get stuck in and intercept opposition passes which nullifies a lot of threat because the pass won't even reach the intended target from the opposition. What Maguire needs to be able to execute all these CCB duties to a good level is protection around him, meaning 2 pacey CBs who can defend the channels and cover up for Maguire's biggest flaw. But that's how most defenses are set up when you have a slower CB in the centre. Dias at City isn't fast either, but he's always protected by the likes of Walker, Akanji, Aké, and Gvardiol. De Ligt was protected by Upamecano and Kim Min-jae at Bayern. I'm sure there are other examples too.
Martínez doesn't really possess much, if anything that a wide CB needs to have out of possession. When we have the ball, he's one of our most important assets, but like I said, I don't think it's worth planning with him for the long-term due to his defensive inefficiencies. He also can't do the bolded part from my previous paragraph, which also makes him unsuited to play CCB over Maguire and probably even de Ligt.
Also, why is the small steps argument a silly one? Yoro, in his limited playing minutes so far, has already solved multiple difficult situations with a long-reaching tackle, simply because his physical profile (his long limbs in these specific situations) allowed him to. The tackles on Trossard in our own box in the league game vs Arsenal, the tackle on Darwin Núnez in the Liverpool game, and even yesterday he could've nullified Sulemana a few times but he made a few individual mistakes because he's 19 with not enough experience at this level. Martínez is just simply not capable of these actions that I'm talking about, because he's too small, too weak, and has too short limbs for a Premier League centre-back.
If we were still playing with a back 4 and inverted full-back, I'd value him as an important player for both the present and future, because he could play that LCB/LB role to an excellent level and his line-breaking passes would be a big asset to the team both from the LB area or when he inverts into the midfield. The only requirement he would need in that scenario, much like Maguire, is a pacey CB like Yoro at LCB, to protect him when he's 1v1 against a pacey winger or when a ball gets played behind him and he gets outpaced by the opposition winger. However, I don't see a real place for him in Amorim's back 3 system and even though I like the player and his tenacious mentality, he will just eventually become "deadwood" at United if Amorim is here to stay for the long-term. His best performances under the new head coach have come in games where we defended deep and our defensive line wasn't exploited by quick breaks from the opposition...but that's not the long-term approach we'll be building towards and there shouldn't be many games per season where we have to continually defend our own box very deep throughout the game.
I'm not being nitpicky with Martínez and trying to find mistakes in every action he makes. I'm simply pointing out that there are things he simply cannot do and that will never change, because players can't outgrow their physical profiles. And a lot of those things he cannot do are non-negotiable requirements for a team wanting to dominate their opponents and play a high defensive line.
PS: Van de Ven has the best top speed in the league, but he never really impressed me with his mobility or acceleration. I never saw him as way above average in those two aspects of his game...which probably means he's not as valuable as the masses think he is when he needs to cover for a slower teammate or eat up space quickly...but having a crazy top speed and being a really good progressive carrier of the ball still make him a valuable CB...just not a world beater.
The thread itself it's nitpicking, every perfomance thread seems to be these days.
That Martinez can't anticipate, doesn't have a 1 v 1, that he hasn't enough pace but the others in the team do, it's simply not true.
Yet of course he'll be dribble, he would fail an anticipation or not even try it, etc...but these sort of stuff is normall on any team and player, it's not that Martinez never does them or never succeed in such situations, even in the air without being Ayala, Passarella or Cannavaro hanging in the air, he ain't that terrible. In fact the defense as a whole, must get their act together specially in dead ball situations so that every player involved (not just defenders and the keeper himself) faces those in an adecuate way.
Of course setups, trainings, matches together will gell or not a team to function better and this is more vital than anything else, way more than the always silly "he ain't for this league type of remark" (football it's football everywhere and it's more important to adapt to your team and COACH than anything else), even if some League at some point can be regarded as the
best.
I've seen the best defenders ever struggling when their teams simply can play as a team and find their best form. United is in that process and to also think that from now it would be just one system or Amorin will be forever it's also quite a bet.
In the particular case of Martinez, individually, leaving everything else aside also, the main thing right now it's for him it's to get properly fit, just the prior match to this last one he got another knock. If not it will be a roller coaster in terms of him comitting in his best agressive self that United needs like water.
Later it's the team itself to find the proper partners all over the pitch to have a better chemistry, order and closer lines to not deal with so many players all over the pitch facing very disadvantage situations, on the defensive side of the game and even on the offensive one.
Things prior to this last game were getting tighter, let's hope that still continues that way.
PD: I brought Harry as a pun, because if someone sees him as a Roll Royce of a Player, yet finds so many failures in others, it's a bit to the very least strange or biased. Not because Harry deserves to be trash or anything like that.
PD2: the "masses", Rojito come on, cut the crap with the I'm the only one seeing it, it's just a forum, everyone has its own view, no one is here is Delem, Zagallo, Cornejo, Menotti, Pekerman, Chapman, Grohs, De Visser...etc etc
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