[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

I thought he was decent tonight. Like at Arsenal. Starting to get that bite back in his game that hides his lack of athleticism. That skill at the end was outrageous for a CB.

 

[Irwin99]

Second goal was bad marking from him. You can see flashes of the player that was there last season but it's just not quite coming together yet.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Him standing and watching Gnabry on the second goal was poor. Should’ve passed Kane to the full back beside him.

You’ve said he’s getting off lightly and then produced quite a tenuous critique. It’s the kind of thing people say watching football and not playing it, realistically can he actually get to Gnabry? No, there’s a very harsh criticism to say (assuming he’s had the call from behind him) he could maybe get a step closer but the distance is too great and he’s followed Kane’s run which is his primary job.

If you were to list the errors it’s whoever has let Gnabry go free, then I’d say Dalot could do better but he’s unlucky and Martinez could get a fraction toward the ball but that’d be super pedantic.

 

[TMDaines]

Heinze and Martinez are different style of players..

Time will tell on whether Martinez will be a one season wonder like Gabriel Heinze.

It would be nice to have that one season first.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It would be nice to have that one season first.

You didn’t think he was good last season?

 

[groovyalbert]

The aura of intimidation he built for himself last season seems to have gone. He's been average at best by his own high standards since his injury. Hopefully having Varane next to him soon will bring some stability to the back 4 and allow him to kick on. Not been the same since his injury by a long way.

 

[TMDaines]

You didn’t think he was good last season?

He was fine, but I don’t think he was great, no. He showed potential more than anything else, but was involved in far too many terrible defensive performances for it to be considered a good season. That’s now getting even worse. His passing too is now being found wanting. Feels as if he has lost confidence in progressing the ball.

Some of the shouts last season describing him as world class or likely to be a CB for us for the next decade were as rash as they were with Bailly after his first season. Jury is still out as to whether he will have a long, successful career here, or he’ll just be another flavour of a season or two.

His future is closely aligned with the manager’s. If the manager stays, he will continue to be picked as it is in the manager’s best interest to ensure his big signings succeed here. If ETH goes, then there is a very good chance Martinez’s security of starts goes and he will be competing with our CBs and any new signings for the eye of future managers.

 

[SambaBoy]

I don't think his passing comes to the fore anymore because of Onana basically occupying the same space when we have possession.

Don't think his defending has been great this season either but I think he was solid enough last night. I think we need a strong CB next to him like Varane to get the best out of him rather than relying on him as the defensive leader.

 

[tomaldinho1]

He was fine, but I don’t think he was great, no. He showed potential more than anything else, but was involved in far too many terrible defensive performances for it to be considered a good season. That’s now getting even worse. His passing too is now being found wanting. Feels as if he has lost confidence in progressing the ball.

Some of the shouts last season describing him as world class or likely to be a CB for us for the next decade were as rash as they were with Bailly after his first season. Jury is still out as to whether he will have a long, successful career here, or he’ll just be another flavour of a season or two.

His future is closely aligned with the manager’s. If the manager stays, he will continue to be picked as it is in the manager’s best interest to ensure his big signings succeed here. If ETH goes, then there is a very good chance Martinez’s security of starts goes and he will be competing with our CBs and any new signings for the eye of future managers.

He was superb for most of last season. This season there is warranted criticism and worry he might not recover his pre injury form but your comment implied he’d not been good last season which shows either bias or a terrible eye for football. This feeling is heightened by comparing him to Bailly who had all the attributes to succeed but rarely strung two good games together.

 

[flameinthesun]

We desperately need a 3rd CB that can challenge both Licha and Varane. Ideally someone young, fast, above 6ft who can pass. I have doubts that Licha can be a world class CB and with Varane a sicknote this should be an area we focus on upgrading.

 

[acnumber9]

You’ve said he’s getting off lightly and then produced quite a tenuous critique. It’s the kind of thing people say watching football and not playing it, realistically can he actually get to Gnabry? No, there’s a very harsh criticism to say (assuming he’s had the call from behind him) he could maybe get a step closer but the distance is too great and he’s followed Kane’s run which is his primary job.

If you were to list the errors it’s whoever has let Gnabry go free, then I’d say Dalot could do better but he’s unlucky and Martinez could get a fraction toward the ball but that’d be super pedantic.

I say he gets off lightly because it’s the kind of mistake others would get crucified for and you only further prove the point. Same could be said for his pathetic attempt at defending Brighton’s second. He’s part of a defence that is massively underperforming and he’s got his responsibility for that too. It doesn’t make him a bad player, it means he’s not playing well. It happens.

 

[TMDaines]

He was superb for most of last season. This season there is warranted criticism and worry he might not recover his pre injury form but your comment implied he’d not been good last season which shows either bias or a terrible eye for football. This feeling is heightened by comparing him to Bailly who had all the attributes to succeed but rarely strung two good games together.

But he wasn’t “superb” last season. This is hyperbole. He was and still is conceding far too many goals. He reguarly gets his arse handed to him on a plate against any sort of opposition away from home. Are we supposed to ignore that?

There might be a good PL defender there, but it is still completely unproven whether he can be part of a top PL defence.

 

[tomaldinho1]

But he wasn’t “superb” last season. This is hyperbole. He was and still is conceding far too many goals. He reguarly gets his arse handed to him on a plate against any sort of opposition away from home. Are we supposed to ignore that?

There might be a good PL defender there, but it is still completely unproven whether he can be part of a top PL defence.

Are you aware of the position he plays in?

 

[TMDaines]

Are you aware of the position he plays in?

Go on. Are you going to argue with a straight face that the team conceding goals isn’t a primary concern of the CB?

If you don’t want it in goals conceded terms, have it in terms of xG against us. We had xGA of over 50 in the league last season. That’s a not a good defence. This season we are trending comfortably worse after only 9 xGA in 5 matches.

We’re not good defensively and Martinez has yet to be part of a decent United and PL defence. I don’t see how that is a remotely controversial take. Maybe Martinez will become part a good PL defence. Maybe he won’t. The jury is out.

 

[Greyfog]

A hard man!

 

[RedC]

I'm hoping that playing with Varane makes him more confident, seems like he's in 2 minds at various points this season, not sure he completely trusts Lindelof.

 

[Pexbo]

Hate to say it but seems that I was right on this (@Sarni is the only other Caf poster who has been negative about him I can remember).

He is okay. Would be third-fourth choice in top teams who compete for trophies.

Just to be clear you are writing of an entire season where he was outstanding on the basis of a few games at the beginning of the season following a 5 month injury lay-off.

Yeah right mate, hate to say it but it seems like you were right.

 

[Revan]

Just to be clear you are writing of an entire season where he was outstanding on the basis of a few games at the beginning of the season following a 5 month injury lay-off.

Yeah right mate, hate to say it but it seems like you were right.

I do not think he was outstanding last season. It was the typical Caf overreaction we do for every signing (except Mount of course).

I do not think he was bad or anything like that. But he was nowhere as good as Caf claimed (best in the world, best in the league, world class). I thought that Varane was far far better and covered for Lisandro’s many deficiencies.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Go on. Are you going to argue with a straight face that the team conceding goals isn’t a primary concern of the CB?

If you don’t want it in goals conceded terms, have it in terms of xG against us. We had xGA of over 50 in the league last season. That’s a not a good defence. This season we are trending comfortably worse after only 9 xGA in 5 matches.

We’re not good defensively and Martinez has yet to be part of a decent United and PL defence. I don’t see how that is a remotely controversial take. Maybe Martinez will become part a good PL defence. Maybe he won’t. The jury is out.

I watched our games last year…and no I wouldn’t say ‘look that defence has conceded lots of goals that means that single CB isn’t great, if I could see he was a great player’. I’d look at the whole team and think about what the issues are. If he was getting skinned every game, losing all his duels and just being generally off the pace in sure you could surmise what you’re saying but that doesn’t ever happen at this level.

We had just as good a defence as Arsenal last year in the league - what makes it impressive when you actually examine it is outside of the three god awful games where we conceded 17 goals (Brentford, City, Pool) we were generally very solid and as you should be aware we’re comfortable winners of the golden glove for DDG which, as you should also be aware, is a reflection of how a team defends in general. First season in the PL, playing in a team with a very old midfield in front of him, and being a key part of a team that got back into the CL and won a minor trophy. I don’t think there’s a huge amount more that realistically you could have hoped for.

Moreso though it’s just so obvious that he improved us last season, in possession and out of possession. He wasn’t without faults and was part of the really big defeats but your original post, which now you’re steadily backtracking on, was saying he wasn’t good last season. He’s comfortably been better than Heinze was for us, as much as I loved Heinze until the Anfield crap, he was very limited.

 

[El-Manos]

He’s not back to his best yet but I didn’t think he was as bad as people make out to be either.

 

[TMDaines]

which now you’re steadily backtracking on

What do you think I am backtracking on?

I simply don’t think he was great last season, even though I could see his potential, and I am still adamant that fans greatly overrated his current ability and performances, and those of our defence more widely. I still remain unconvinced about whether he will become a successful mainstay in our defence long term, or whether he will fall out of favour sooner rather than later.

Put this way, I don’t think it makes too much difference which of our current defenders play and which are sat in the stands. Varane is maybe our best CB, but is weakest on the ball and can’t stay fit anyway.

 

[tomaldinho1]

What do you think I am backtracking on?

I simply don’t think he was great last season, even though I could see his potential, and I am still adamant that fans greatly overrated his current ability and performances, and those of our defence more widely. I still remain unconvinced about whether he will become a successful mainstay in our defence long term, or whether he will fall out of favour sooner rather than later.

Last paragraph isn’t really relevant. I think he was superb last season and you don’t, I think that reveals very unrealistic expectations or what I said previously.

I think you are aware how your original comment comes across and are now toning it down.

 

[Lee565]

Honestly think with his recent form in defence it might be worth sticking Maguire next to lindelof and trying martinez as a defensive midfielder to try and protect our back 4 because casimero can not do it by himself anymore and as much as Maguire gets he can not be any worse than martinez is currently is in central defence and is getting off easily with our fanbase pure because he's a "warrior"

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

He still doesn’t look fully fit. I’m not worried though, he’ll be back to his best soon. Varane returning will certainly help as well.

 

[Just Hope]

Honestly think with his recent form in defence it might be worth sticking Maguire next to lindelof and trying martinez as a defensive midfielder to try and protect our back 4 because casimero can not do it by himself anymore and as much as Maguire gets he can not be any worse than martinez is currently is in central defence and is getting off easily with our fanbase pure because he's a "warrior"

I was thinking about something similar.

Play five at the back, with Licha as DM so he can drop to the back line when the fullbacks attack. It is clear that we need to build from the back, since we are currently the footballing equivalent of a colander.

 

[jem]

Honestly think with his recent form in defence it might be worth sticking Maguire next to lindelof and trying martinez as a defensive midfielder to try and protect our back 4 because casimero can not do it by himself anymore and as much as Maguire gets he can not be any worse than martinez is currently is in central defence and is getting off easily with our fanbase pure because he's a "warrior"

If you believe this, then I'd suggest Maguire is getting off easily with you.

 

[Blood Mage]

He's a lesser player without Varane next to him if we're being honest.

 

[Kaos]

He's a lesser player without Varane next to him if we're being honest.

Don't think we appreciate how good Varane is and in particular how he elevates the game of those around him. Lindelof had played his best football with us during that stint where he partnered Varane towards the end of the last season.

 

[tomaldinho1]

He's a lesser player without Varane next to him if we're being honest.

Varane when fit is amongst the best players in his position in the world, the CB partner then drops to Maguire/Lindelof if he’s out so no shit.

We should be looking for a fast, tall and less aggressive CB to partner Martinez and complement his areas of weakness which are pace and height. I don’t know how good this Todibo guy is but he looks to be in the right mould.

 

[Blood Mage]

Don't think we appreciate how good Varane is and in particular how he elevates the game of those around him. Lindelof had played his best football with us during that stint where he partnered Varane towards the end of the last season.

True it has become increasingly apparent.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The aura of intimidation he built for himself last season seems to have gone. He's been average at best by his own high standards since his injury. Hopefully having Varane next to him soon will bring some stability to the back 4 and allow him to kick on. Not been the same since his injury by a long way.

He’s only just come back from a long term injury and straight into a team that’s collapsed. He was for me our best player last season before his injury so I think he deserves time to get back into the groove. Agree that he’s been a bit off in these opening games.

While our defence hasn’t been good it’s getting little to no support from the midfield and forwards - barring Bruno and Hojlund.

 

[A-man]

One weakness last season was when he left his position to confront the attacker. His decision making was not always the best and he got overplayed and there was a big hole behind him. This season it has got worse imo, maybe because we play a bit higher up. Kane pulled him out of position time and time again yesterday, leaving a big space where Bayern could attack and also messing up our backline. Good tactics from Bayern to target Martinez like that, and it was also the plan according to Kane. That side with Rashford helping zero in defence, Regulion bombing forward and Martinez often out of position looked vulnerable. We need him to push high up but he must evaluate the situations better.

 

[Glorio]

Thought he was really good yesterday personally. Even the goal he was blamed for, hard to be critical when he was keeping an eye on the man behind him.

The defense needs to be communicating more this season as someone should have given him a shout

 

[soapythecat]

If Maguire had been putting in the performances of Martinez, he would be mocked even more. Martinez stats are horrendous this season and it’s no surprise we are conceding on every attack.
He needs dropping to find some form, but ETH won’t. Maguire or Lindlof should play his position today if we want to get a result.

 

[andersj]

If Maguire had been putting in the performances of Martinez, he would be mocked even more. Martinez stats are horrendous this season and it’s no surprise we are conceding on every attack.
He needs dropping to find some form, but ETH won’t. Maguire or Lindlof should play his position today if we want to get a result.

I agree that he has not been good. But I also think it is very important to get him in form. And despite his off form off the ball, he is still our defender on the ball. So I really dont agree that we should drop him. Even less so for another not in form central defender (Maguire).

 

[GMoore23]

Heinze and Martinez are different style of players..

Time will tell on whether Martinez will be a one season wonder like Gabriel Heinze.

Harsh on Heinze. He did his ACL in his 2nd season.
Was still a good player when he came back but Evra was just better.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

The dude is heartbroken without Varane. He’s a shadow of his former self without Rafa.

 

[Bondi77]

Varane when fit is amongst the best players in his position in the world, the CB partner then drops to Maguire/Lindelof if he’s out so no shit.

We should be looking for a fast, tall and less aggressive CB to partner Martinez and complement his areas of weakness which are pace and height. I don’t know how good this Todibo guy is but he looks to be in the right mould.

If we have a player playing CB and their weakness is pace and height then I would seriously consider putting him in another position.

 

[tomaldinho1]

If we have a player playing CB and their weakness is pace and height then I would seriously consider putting him in another position.

Ok

 

[Bondi77]

Ok

I concur.