Some great stuff on there, the only good thing about their start to the season is now the fans actually think they're in a title race, the inevitable meltdown is going to be glorious
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
He's made a bunch of good ones to front players skipping the midfield on the floor. Those are probably 30 yards or so.
He hasn't played that many over the top through passes like he did tonight
He is really good at those too. Kinda like the one where Bruno found Rashford's run for the first goal. I'd imagine we will see more of that from Martinez with time.
On another note, he would be so deadly in this City team.
His passing is excellent, UtdArena twitter guy named him as one of the best passer when Martinez was still in Argentina, that's some scouting.
He found player between lines all game, most of our attacks started with his passes. The difference between him and our other CBs is night and day.
He found player between lines all game, most of our attacks started with his passes. The difference between him and our other CBs is night and day.
His passing is ridiculous. Not convinced by his defending, but his ability to always find a man with his risky passing is a world class asset.
We need 4 of him in defence and another of him in DM position.
That sums him up.
That asset of his was completely missing in the City game and a major reason why we posed almost zero threat to them.
Sure, but it also requires an attacker to have dropped into space and for the opponents not to be blocking the pass. City's midfield were pressuring our players constantly so there were likely no gaps to play the pass.
Playing him in midfield would mean one less good CB. All the more wrong cause he's creating a partnership with Varane. His passing can be used when he's a CB too like he did for our 2nd goal yesterday.
I don't understand the calls to play him as a DM. sure, his passing is brilliant, but he's doing that from centre back, which is a brilliant weapon to have in the team. We've complained for years that our centre backs don't pass through the lines, but now we finally have one people want to move him from the position.
Rather than buying players from Ajax, we need to buy the SCOUTS from Ajax, how Ajax keeps getting gems at cheap prices is astonishing.
The best signing we've made post Fergie.
Just on this point, passing opportunities at cm and cb differ. I used to play on the wing and fullback and in general it was way easier to find passes at fullback than as a winger due to having more time on the ball. Whilst Martinez defo could do a job at cdm I think he gets more time to pick passes at cb. Also having his passing ability at the back and then if we are able to find a cdm (de jong?) who can also play passes would double the output of line splitting passes from the back.
Context, I replied to a post about passing range and “always into the forward's feet”.
Yesterday he had 2-3 great long passes to the attacking players. They were just outside or inside the box. We have not seen that in the PL. According to stats for PL he has zero passes in to the box, zero key passes and zero passes through the back line in to the space behind (fbref definition of through ball). Those balls to the box or close to the box are difficult to hit when you are pressed, and and passes through the back line is very hard for a CB sitting so deep as ours do. If we move up our backline and become more dominant I am sure we will see more of this kind.
Not sure what you mean with bold part? You want me to give examples where he should have hit those passes? Would anyway not change the fact he hasn’t.
He’s had some good passes in to midfield, mostly short range, but still opening up. Not sure if it is more than other CBs at the top teams, though. I can see he has it when there is little pressure, like yesterday, and he will hopefully develop that skill also in the PL as well. It will also be easier when/if we become more dominant, but that skill would have been useful also in matches where we are pinned back, like the City game.
A midfielder who would consistantly show for his passes and managed to then turn and run with the ball would be absolutely deadly. Can see why ETH wanted FDJ so badly, he’d be amazing for us.
I would only understand it if we had 2 or 3 other CBs who are defending as well as he is. We dont. He's our best CB and already able to play the passes from that position.
If we go out and buy 2 more CBs with his kind of defensive aggression who genuinely want to fight for the ball and enjoy doing the job, but ones that can be counted on to do it at the right times and not every time, then sure I could see it. But it certainly isnt needed. And my guess is we'll go back in for De Jong next summer and have a better chance of getting it done so we'll have that extra passing ability in there anyway and wont need to move him around
Just like Redcafé to want to move our best CB into midfield while all our other CBs are out injured. Moving him into midfield means playing one or both of Lindelöf and Maguire every game.
You are probably correct.
I agree. its a bit over the top when we conceded 2 Vs fodder.
True yet he was the covering defender for both goals. One was a great through pass fair enough, the 2nd he was caught ball watching and wasn't aware of the dude over his shoulder. We had someone closing down the attacker already.
Best transfer we’ve made in years. Probably best player in the whole team if you think consistency and availability. Incredible player to be honest.
Passing masterclass from him (and Lindelöf).
Looking good and not as "small" as ew feared.
But how many goals are we still shipping!
But how many goals are we still shipping!
Surely you can see how you’re coming across as determined not to give credit where credit is due here?
You keep moving the goalposts to make his excellent passing seem less excellent. An early accurate pass to feet, through the lines, can hurt the opposition whether or not the receiving player is inside the opposition box, or running onto a pass into the space behind the last defender. And he’s been pulling off those passes on a regular basis, in the PL and in Europe.
Central defenders will play passes into the box or beyond the last man so rarely they’re a terrible metric to compare performances in different competitions. Even more so when we’ve played a grand total of 3 European games.
It just comes across as a vendetta when you’re trying to infer his passing is less effective in the PL. And that’s not a good look when you’re often defending other players (e.g. Lindelof) against, in my opinion, equally unfair vendettas.
The thought of Lindelöf and Maguire starting again for us sound like stuffs of nightmares.
I think the way of always trying to pinpoint a goal to one or two players making a mistake is really simplified. Sure we can find mistakes in most goals, and sure many goals come from losing the possession somewhere, but the defence is also there for the reason to cover for those mistakes. If a defender wasn't involved in conceding a goal, maybe he should have been involved, so to say. If we look at United defence as a whole, I would say that main reason we are leaking goals like never before is because we fail to defend like a team. Despite the fact we are sitting back deep we seem unbalanced.
(When it comes to the counter goal from the corner, I don't think Martinez was suppose to cover that. Malacia was the last covering man and should have done anything but trying what he did. )
I can see how I am coming across as not giving credit, considering the context: a forum thread where anybody who writes something that isn't superlative about Martinez is considered negative. In this case I wrote that we haven't seen these kind of long range passing (to the feet of the attacker) in the PL. I still think this is valid.
I have written many positive things about him, but I don't agree his passing has been excellent in the PL. It's been good in some matches, and less good in others like City, but imo not excellent.
As i wrote, it is not only up to Martinez, but also the way we set up with very low defence.
One of the best passing defenders I've seen in ages. His passing is so good, a pleasure to watch.
This is the problem with looking at games through numbers and not, well, eyes. He’s split defences numerous times in the league, but because it doesn’t fit “fbref” and their chosen description then we must discount it. Without context stats mean absolutely nothing.
You should be adding the stats to your observations, not use them isolated, and you will see how they can contribute to your overall understanding.
Agree 100% some of the stats are complicated in their definitions and not very intuitive (like through balls), and others are quite straight forward (like number of offsides). That’s why one must understand the definition for the stats before using them.
I know we sometimes go overboard with the "X should play in [insert unnatural position]" but I really fail to see why he wouldn't be extremely effective in DM.
He’s too short !
Joking aside he’s not playing CM because he’s arguably our best defender, plus we have a couple of good options in DM right now. Not perfect, but better than playing Licha there for no reason.
Although I agree with you, there’s very little chance he’ll get trialled there now because we have Casemiro. If we didn’t sign Casemiro then he could of been the solution to our DM problems but then that would still leave a hole in CB.
Aside from the obvious (that the responsibilities of a CB are far different to a DM), it's predominantly that the passing angles and time on the ball are different. Martinez is a great long range passer but he has the space to move forward and make those raking passes. Midfield is obviously more congested and requires a different skillset to constantly be scanning and making space before you can attempt those passes.
It's the same sort of reason why, say, someone like Alexander Arnold despite being a good passer from wing back areas wouldn't work in midfield.
I don't think there was any covering defender for the 1st goal. That was kind of the issue.
Whether or not he was supposed to be covering we don't really know.
2nd goal fair enough, we got caught in transition but he could've done better.
Martinez is not perfect and not above criticism.
The context is that you have made comments like 'he does not pass as much to forwards in the premier league' or 'he's not a special or progressive passer and he's done the same as our other centre backs'. Both can be objectively proven to be 'correct' in your usage of stats. If we want to be literal then there's needs no further discussion on here if you want to be 'right'.
The further context of why you find others have issue, is that you use these stats to then infer that Martinez could do more and/or hasn't shown things, which plenty of posters have seen him do. You hold him to a higher standard, without context with throwaway comments like 'his passing wasn't as good in the City game', which is 'right' but it's used to conclude said unfair standards. The bolded part is really important because you are using stats (with limited context) to read the game and then make subjective opinions of a player, to lessen his quality and performances; not just once or twice but quite consistently. In isolated incidents this is fine but as it has been said by others not just myself, it's paints a really odd analysis when your body of postings are not applied in the same way i.e when used to comment on a player like Lindelof.
On face value, your comments are 'fair game' for discussion and you could say the posters, who may think you have an agenda as just being sensitive. So on that note, I am going to take inspiration from your post and use some stats to make some observations.
@A-man is a extremely positive praiser when discussing Lindelof. The stats are in their body of posts in all the performance threads.
@A-man is a negative poster when discussing Martinez. The stats are in their body of posts in this thread. This may or may not have to do with Martinez taking Lindelof's place and showing how to actually defend and make effective passes from the back.
First of all, I do not mean anything sinister. I'm merely using the evidence available to make a subjective opinion, which are based on a long body of work. They don't tell the full picture of course but it's fair game for discussion because I'm using objective stats
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If I had a performance thread, it would make sense to evaluate me. Now this is Martinez’ performance thread and you just come out as a bit weird tbh. Like most others in this thread, I write my evaluation of the player. If you don’t agree, argue with my assessment instead. And why write about Lindelof all the time (71% of your posts in Martinez’ thread mention Lindelof)?Martinez is not perfect and not above criticism.
The context is that you have made comments like 'he does not pass as much to forwards in the premier league' or 'he's not a special or progressive passer and he's done the same as our other centre backs'. Both can be objectively proven to be 'correct' in your usage of stats. If we want to be literal then there's needs no further discussion on here if you want to be 'right'.
The further context of why you find others have issue, is that you use these stats to then infer that Martinez could do more and/or hasn't shown things, which plenty of posters have seen him do. You hold him to a higher standard, without context with throwaway comments like 'his passing wasn't as good in the City game', which is 'right' but it's used to conclude said unfair standards. The bolded part is really important because you are using stats (with limited context) to read the game and then make subjective opinions of a player, to lessen his quality and performances; not just once or twice but quite consistently. In isolated incidents this is fine but as it has been said by others not just myself, it's paints a really odd analysis when your body of postings are not applied in the same way i.e when used to comment on a player like Lindelof.
On face value, your comments are 'fair game' for discussion and you could say the posters, who may think you have an agenda as just being sensitive. So on that note, I am going to take inspiration from your post and use some stats to make some observations.
@A-man is a extremely positive praiser when discussing Lindelof. The stats are in their body of posts in all the performance threads.
@A-man is a negative poster when discussing Martinez. The stats are in their body of posts in this thread. This may or may not have to do with Martinez taking Lindelof's place and showing how to actually defend and make effective passes from the back.
First of all, I do not mean anything sinister. I'm merely using the evidence available to make a subjective opinion, which are based on a long body of work. They don't tell the full picture of course but it's fair game for discussion because I'm using objective stats
I believe ETH said that Martinez is a defender, not a midfielder. If I remember correctly, ETH has tried him at DM but he wasn’t good. I’m sure ETH knows better. I thought he would be good for us as DM as well but it is even less likely now that we have Casemiro, we just need him to come up to speed.
Superb player, for a CB his passing range is phenomenal. He’s one of only a few players at the club that I don’t worry when he has the ball under pressure. He’s also shown excellent defensive qualities at times and is/was building a good partnership with Varane.
Unsure why there is so much talk about pound shop Martinez (Lindelof) in here, the guy is the most mediocre CB I’ve seen at United since Mal Donaghy.
Unsure why there is so much talk about pound shop Martinez (Lindelof) in here, the guy is the most mediocre CB I’ve seen at United since Mal Donaghy.
- Status