[bond19821982]

This team is largely the same team as last season...

Even after a year under ETH this side wouldn't be that good, because ultimately, the players aren't good enough.

But it's a different manager ? I can argue that peak Ole team would beat peak LVG team- it doesn't tell anything and that's not the point.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

But it's a different manager ? I can argue that peak Ole team would beat peak LVG team- it doesn't tell anything and that's not the point.

Well the over reaching point was that this is the worst side/collection of players I've ever seen us have (hardly a hot take I know) ... That was my way of illustrating it.

 

[A-man]

Because if Martinez was 6ft 2 and played the last two games in exactly the same way, his aerial ability wouldn't have been mentioned. We'd just have heard the more generic (and accurate) "he needs to adapt to the pace of the PL" type comments.

It goes both ways. People heard he’s good on the ball and now praising him for that like he’s prime Xavi. He’s been ok on the ball, but it hasn’t been the next level passing compared to what we already have.

However the third goal, I really wonder if Maguire had failed to defend that.

 

[sullydnl]

It goes both ways. People heard he’s good on the ball and now praising him for that like he’s prime Xavi. He’s been ok on the ball, but it hasn’t been the next level passing compared to what we already have.

However the third goal, I really wonder if Maguire had failed to defend that.

Yep, the bold is fair too. I'm certainly not saying his performances don't deserve criticism, just that what is actually being criticised is heavily framed by his height rather than his actual performances.

If people were saying he hasn't been as good as they'd hoped on the ball, he's put himself in bad positions at times, he's struggled with the intensity of what's happening around him and that he basically hasn't made any real difference over having someone like Lindelof in the team then I'd have no real argument bar "give him time".

 

[jeff_goldblum]

It almost feels bad ripping on Martínez aerial weakness in his performance thread, because it's not really his fault. If he had qualities Ten Hag wants in the team, its the manager's job to find a way to fit him in which doesn't leave us vulnerable.

He shouldn't be put in a situation where he's having to constantly challenge big centre-forwards for high balls.

 

[RacingClub]

Yesterday what our defence did in possession was clearly a much bigger problem than how they dealt with aerial threat.

Agreed with that, however that won't be discussed in here because Martinez wasn't responsible for that.

Also it makes EtH decision to take him off even more mind boggling (if it wasn't due to the aerial pressure) as he was the best performer with the ball at his feet in defence first half.

People are saying Frank alluded to it, but only after the reporter directly brought up the subject of Martinez' height to him.

Well yeah , that would signal to me that it was an obvious tactic that was easily picked up by TV etc and the manager was happy to talk about it.

I don't think Frank would be led by Jamie Rednapp to discuss something that he didn't agree with.

Frank specifically references the Brighton game as why they chose to go down that route too (unprompted) and many criticisms of Martinez from that game were laughed off too.

Ditto Toney and ETH, with Toney stating that our inability to deal with the press was the actual issue and ETH rightly pointing out that height had nothing to do with the goals we conceded.

Yeah that was a bigger issue (which won't be discussed in here because Martinez wasn't a contributing factor to that issue but I'm sure it's being discussed in Maguire and DDGs threads) and once again doesn't make sense why EtH chose to take off a guy who was dealing with it better than most (since he says it wasn't a height issue).

It's not that the media are gaslighting people into thinking his physicality is an issue. It's that it's being presented as the core issue yesterday, when it simply wasn't.

I don't think that it's being presented as the core issue in here either, it's being presented as one of many issues (once again all those other issues are being highlighted in various threads all over the place).

And I can only think that's because pointing to Martinez' height requires little actual insight or fits a pre-existing narrative people had.

Actually I think the "little actual insight" applies more to people thinking that his height/ physical stature/ physicality isn't a problem and only consider direct goals and assists as evidence of an issue.

Because if Martinez was 6ft 2 and played the last two games in exactly the same way, his aerial ability wouldn't have been mentioned. We'd just have heard the more generic (and accurate) "he needs to adapt to the pace of the PL" type comments.

Well yeah I do believe that that's what they would say , because there would be the possibility that physically he could compete in that way eventually but that isn't the case here.

In this case it's going to take system improvements / new signings ( most likely)and time to cover for that issue.

 

[Berbaclass]

Not worried at all. We saw Ben White get bullied by Brentford last season and all the focus on that.

 

[Bobski]

Not worried at all. We saw Ben White get bullied by Brentford last season and all the focus on that.

And Ben White has been pushed put to full back because Arsenal realized it was a problem, and their first choice RB is injured.

 

[spiriticon]

It almost feels bad ripping on Martínez aerial weakness in his performance thread, because it's not really his fault. If he had qualities Ten Hag wants in the team, its the manager's job to find a way to fit him in which doesn't leave us vulnerable.

He shouldn't be put in a situation where he's having to constantly challenge big centre-forwards for high balls.

He's being targeted on purpose it seems, it's not really our tactics then leave him vulnerable.

He'll have to find a way to get round it. Bulk up and better timing in his jumps.

Also, Maguire can barely cover for himself, nevermind Martinez too

 

[A-man]

Yesterday what our defence did in possession was clearly a much bigger problem than how they dealt with aerial threat. But for some reason it was Martinez' height that became a talking point after the game.

About possession. I think the way we were unable to win back the ball or to defend at the fourth goal was a bit worrying. They basically cleared the ball from their own box and we had no defender even close recover or attack that ball.

In two games we have conceded goals from forward runs and balls in behind the CBs, from being unorganised and weak at defending in the box, and from a counter when we lost possession. And added to that we have lost possession several times when pressed, sometimes in very dangerous situations. It doesn’t look good at all.

I don’t think we’ll see the Maguire - Martinez pair in the next game.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

He's being targeted on purpose it seems, it's not really our tactics then leave him vulnerable.

He'll have to find a way to get round it. Bulk up and better timing in his jumps.

Also, Maguire can barely cover for himself, nevermind Martinez too

Not sure I get the logic here. When you're playing four at the back, the two centrebacks are generally responsible for dealing with any aerial balls which come into their area of the defensive third, often in direct contention with an opposing forward. Playing two centrebacks (rather than three) is a tactical decision, which in this case leaves Martínez contesting a bunch of aerial balls against bigger players. Obviously teams have specifically targeted him, but even if they didn't he'd still be dealing with a lot of aerial challenges because that's part of what a centreback in a two has to do (as opposed to in a three, where it's not uncommon for one of the centrebacks to be smaller because the other two have the aerial threat covered).

Which I guess is the point of the bit you bolded. I'm not saying it's part of our plan for Martínez to constantly be losing headers. But it does seem to be part of our plan for Martínez to play in a position where he has to contest a lot of them, and it absolutely shouldn't be.

 

[RedC]

It goes both ways. People heard he’s good on the ball and now praising him for that like he’s prime Xavi. He’s been ok on the ball, but it hasn’t been the next level passing compared to what we already have.

However the third goal, I really wonder if Maguire had failed to defend that.

It hasn't been next level passing, but he's completely different to the other CBs we have, because he releases the ball quickly.

If Maguire et al had the brain power to just play a pass without spending so much time on it(be it an incisive pass, or a sideways one), we would see a lot less of these pressurised situations at the back.

 

[charlenefan]

Can he play LB? There were rumours when Arsenal wanted him that's where they saw him playing for them (before they went for Zinchenko)

Im so sick of seeing Shaw and maybe too soon for Malacia

 

[Bobski]

Can he play LB? There were rumours when Arsenal wanted him that's where they saw him playing for them (before they went for Zinchenko)

Im so sick of seeing Shaw and maybe too soon for Malacia

Ten Hag didn't think he had the running power for midfield in Holland, and he is not quick over distance so I think that is a non starter,

 

[Dominos]

https://ballerzbantz.com/2022/08/13...-case-study-of-lisandro-martinez-vs-brighton/

Interesting breakdown of Martinez vs Brighton (framed around Aerial Duel stats) which (I feel) illustrates the issues some (@Annihilate Now! , @Pogue Mahone @Leftback99 @Chief123 @Bobski etc) have had with his performances (with Stills,Gifs and infographics).

I'm sure there will be something similar produced for the Brentford game.

From what I can tell nobody is saying "He is the reason we are shit" it's moreso "He isn't making us any more defensively solid".

Not "He's THE problem in defence" (Just look at Maguire/ Dalot/ Shaw performance threads) more "He's A problem in defence".

I think that covers a lot of what went wrong against Brentford too. It wasn’t about him being consistently out-jumped so much as the opposition being able to ping a long, high ball towards a target man who would isolate Martinez and receive it more or less uncontested. That’s happened a lot in the first two games and will continue to happen a lot. This would obviously be less of an issue if everyone round him was a bit more switched on about winning the second ball (if we, shock horror, played a central midfielder who knows how to defend) but it’s still a new problem we need to deal with. And signing a very expensive new player should really solve problems, not create them.

That's very interesting article and part of the reason why the eye test and deductive reasoning is so important. During the summer saga I couldn't for a second buy into the idea that because Martinez had decent domestic stats last season that he could come into the premier league and meet the standard we need for aerial dominance and physicality. Logically it just seemed incredibly unlikely.

Look at this quote from the article predicting that he'd either be dropped or moved to another position for Brentford. They weren't far wrong given he ended up being subbed at half time.

I would not be surprised to see Lisandro dropped or moved to another position to accommodate during the match.

 

[Bobski]

That's very interesting article and part of the reason why the eye test and deductive reasoning is so important. During the summer saga I couldn't for a second buy into the idea that because Martinez had decent domestic stats last season that he could come into the premier league and meet the standard we need for aerial dominance and physicality. Logically it just seemed incredibly unlikely.

Look at this quote from the article predicting that he'd either be dropped or moved to another position for Brentford. They weren't far wrong given he ended up being subbed at half time.

And this also illustrates how Lindelof can have deceptively decent aerial stats despite the majority of those who watch him knowing that it is a weakness in his game. Don't choose to contest and you don't get a failed contest, goes the same for tackles. Only go for the ones you think you will win and you will keep great numbers. Guys who are better in the air will contest everything, even the situations where it is 70/30 against them.

 

[Dominos]

And this also illustrates how Lindelof can have deceptively decent aerial stats despite the majority of those who watch him knowing that it is a weakness in his game. Don't choose to contest and you don't get a failed contest, goes the same for tackles. Only go for the ones you think you will win and you will keep great numbers. Guys who are better in the air will contest everything, even the situations where it is 70/30 against them.

I always try to differentiate between a forgivable weakness and a major weakness.

A centre back not being quick is forgivable. Being as slow and immobile as Maguire is not. The weakness is too major to the point where it's going to be a constant liability. I suspect Martinez will go the same way except it's his lack of height and physicality that's the issue.

Lindelof is just a defender without many strengths and some forgivable weaknesses, which adds up to not being good enough for us. He's not quick but he's not Maguire level slow, he's not great in their but I don't think it's a major liability any more.

 

[bugmat]

Though that he was set up by his defence. No way the shorted man should be contesting ball in our box 2 on 1, Keeper as usual doesnt command his box, maguire 3 feet away gormless instead fo doing the one job eh should be great at with his size and head.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Think for the immediate future ETH should take him out the firing line with Varane fit.

i'd play him as a CDM personally. He can do everything he wants as a CB as a deep midfield. No reason he can't be doing that role he's asking Eriksen to do.

Eriksen is hardly a great runner either.

 

[VanHaal'sRedArmy]

He needs to play at the base of our midfield with Lindelof and Varane behind.

 

[Giant Midget]

I don’t think he’s been that exposed in the air; but the worst part of this is that if managers think he’s exposed, they’re going to play long balls and by-passing any press by us. We’re not able to put any pressure on the ball because the chance isn’t there in the first place.

Combine that with the fact at how awful we are at winning second balls anyway, it was like men against boys out there.

 

[Chief123]

I don’t think he’s been that exposed in the air; but the worst part of this is that if managers think he’s exposed, they’re going to play long balls and by-passing any press by us. We’re not able to put any pressure on the ball because the chance isn’t there in the first place.

Combine that with the fact at how awful we are at winning second balls anyway, it was like men against boys out there.

No matter how well we as fans or our manager thinks Martinez will do against physicality in this league, the truth is every manager of opposing teams will fancy their chances to target him. They’ll believe they have a weakness which they can exploit.

Now obviously Martinez will have to take that challenge on and show he has it in him to overcome any challenges and show he is reliable to be a solid CB. If he’s able to show that consistently, then naturally managers will realise there isn’t a weakness there.

But if he shows signs of weakness or potential weakness every game, then naturally he will continue to get targeted.

Brentford manager admitted they targeted Martinez during the game. It wasn’t an obvious exploitation so most will argue Martinez overcame the challenge. But I’ve no doubt we will see him targeted a lot more in the league. Most likely the next game against Liverpool with Nunez.

 

[Stacks]

There is a player in there. He reads the game well and looks very good on the ball. He didn't do much wrong other than the third goal, which was more a slip than a height issue. Any player could have done that.

He will be fine, as long as we get a true DM in front of him.

That won't stop him losing so many aerial contests.

Absolutely certain he’ll come good, once (if) ETH is able to stamp his ideas on the team and get them to execute it out on the pitch.

The worry is that we’ve signed him prematurely, and that it will never happen because we didn’t prioritise upgrading other roles ahead of him.

Midfield should have been first

 

[Stacks]

A minor point but across the two gameweeks people are using to write off Martinez as being too short, Man City have kept back to back clean sheets having started the third shortest CB in the league in a back four. The key difference being what they're surrounded by, not the few CM difference in height between those two players.

Meanwhile Chelsea have two of the four shortest CBs in the league and had originally been looking to make it 3/4 by adding either the aforementioned Ake or Jules Kounde.

The point being that the system matters, a lot.

Koulibaly is 6"5, Silva is 6 ft, Ake 5"11. None of their starters are 5"9. city also have like 70% of the ball.........

 

[joedirt87]

He needs to play at the base of our midfield with Lindelof and Varane behind.

I sure hope it's being considered by ETH for the Liverpool game. When he signed I had thought maybe he will be used as a 2 position player. As a CB in games that United should be able to control (which are none at the moment) and then in big games play him at DM where you need that extra midfield reinforcement.

 

[sglowrider]

Martinez will be the signing that ETH lives or dies on the sword -- after spending nearly £ 50 million plus add-ons. It was completely counter-intuitive to get such a short CB for the PL -- who I highly doubt is even 5ft 9in. Closer to 5ft 7.

Cannavaro being 5ft 9in and being one of the best ever etc is bollocks simply because Cannavaro never played in the PL.

No club in the league has a CB that short, never mind any in the top 6. There is a reason.

It may be the ultimate sign of naivety or an over-blown ego on the part of ETH.

 

[sglowrider]

Koulibaly is 6"5, Silva is 6 ft, Ake 5"11. None of their starters are 5"9. city also have like 70% of the ball.........

I wonder if the folks here who defend Martinez's lack of height are themselves of smaller stature too. Anyone who knows the PL knows it's just too risky to have someone who is 5ft 7, maybe 5ft 8 max as a CB.

 

[klayton88]

Small does equal bad for a central defender, yes. People love to cite wild exceptions to that rule such as Cannavaro, but there's a reason why it's always the same few names brought up every time, and that's because being 5'9" is less than ideal for a top level central defender and there have been very few world class ones who've been that height. Thomas Frank literally said in his post-match interview that they targeted Martinez because of his height, after seeing Brighton do so successfully last week. He's been identified by opposition managers as the weak link in United's back line two games in. Every other team in the league is going to do exactly the same thing for the rest of the season, putting their biggest attacking players directly up against him and trying to bully him. That isn't to say he can't possibly come good and prove everybody wrong, but it's worrying currently that the club has signed a player for nearly £60m and Brentford's manager is gleefully telling the media that they were delighted to see his name on the team sheet.

Great post. Enjoyed that. It is very worrying and I agree he will be targeted all season.

 

[sglowrider]

Great post. Enjoyed that. It is very worrying and I agree he will be targeted all season.

My question then is did ETH not do some due diligence on the PL?

 

[RedC]

Martinez will be the signing that ETH lives or dies on the sword -- after spending nearly £ 50 million plus add-ons. It was completely counter-intuitive to get such a short CB for the PL -- who I highly doubt is even 5ft 9in. Closer to 5ft 7.

Cannavaro being 5ft 9in and being one of the best ever etc is bollocks simply because Cannavaro never played in the PL.

No club in the league has a CB that short, never mind any in the top 6. There is a reason.

It may be the ultimate sign of naivety or an over-blown ego on the part of ETH.

Mascherano is the same height as Martinez.

 

[Bastian]

Mascherano is the same height as Martinez.

Did he ever play as a centre back in the Prem?

 

[CarbonStoolBites]

Didn’t like Neville signaling him out the way he did, bringing up the good ol’d days when be was a youth player or the 90’s, and the the rest of the media leeches followed.
Just because you were a shit centre back Gary, doesn’t mean that anyone else who isn’t 6”5 won’t be able to cut it.

We’re not going to be playing Pulis’ Stoke every weekend or Brentford for that matter.
ETH made a mistake fielding a short side, it wasn’t just Martinez, Fred instead of McTominay as well.

Height for a CB can be an issue in the PL, but so is a lack of pace, poor reading of the game, poor positional sense, poor football skills, we’re not in the 1980’s Gary, teams are playing all sorts of football.

We have a 6”3 Maguire at the back who’s about as useless as it gets at everything else aside from his height, worked out great for us so far right?

You can’t field an entire team of midgets in any league, there needs to be a balance there, but we’re not building a Burnley here either.

I refuse to write this lad off, I like his character and I like his aggression, haven’t watched him playing for Ajax but I’m gonna give him a fair chance.

 

[Stacks]

My question then is did ETH not do some due diligence on the PL?

I feel this was the job of our recruitment department of chief scout/DOF to say "no I don't think this is wise. There are taller CBs who are also good on the ball. We would advise one of these names etc etc" but our recruitment team just rely on the manager.

Mascherano is the same height as Martinez.

Never played CB for Pool according to transfermarkt. Look I'm not saying he cannot play there sometimes. I just feel he lacks any kind of physical ability which is a must in this league. He might be good in Italy for example.

 

[RacingClub]

Did he ever play as a centre back in the Prem?

No he played in CDM with Xabi Alonso (Before he left and then Lucas Levia?) , in front of Carragher/Hyypia/Agger and maybe Skertel (? Poor man's Vidic)

Mostly in a 4-2-3-1 (Conservative fullbacks , didn't play a highline etc) if I remember correctly.

Edit, he may have covered RB at times.

 

[Dominos]

Didn’t like Neville signaling him out the way he did, bringing up the good ol’d days when be was a youth player or the 90’s, and the the rest of the media leeches followed.
Just because you were a shit centre back Gary, doesn’t mean that anyone else who isn’t 6”5 won’t be able to cut it.

We’re not going to be playing Pulis’ Stoke every weekend or Brentford for that matter.
ETH made a mistake fielding a short side, it wasn’t just Martinez, Fred instead of McTominay as well.

Height for a CB can be an issue in the PL, but so is a lack of pace, poor reading of the game, poor positional sense, poor football skills, we’re not in the 1980’s Gary, teams are playing all sorts of football.

We have a 6”3 Maguire at the back who’s about as useless as it gets at everything else aside from his height, worked out great for us so far right?

You can’t field an entire team of midgets in any league, there needs to be a balance there, but we’re not building a Burnley here either.

I refuse to write this lad off, I like his character and I like his aggression, haven’t watched him playing for Ajax but I’m gonna give him a fair chance.

It was said all summer that PL teams play on the deck, we'll be able to keep possession and play a high line so there's no reason he'd get exposed.

2 games in, one of the best footballing teams in the league in Brighton have lumped long balls towards him, and Brentford have done the same, and we've also conceded a direct duel on a set piece. It will continue to happen all season by all sorts of teams.

Being tall alone isn't enough to be a great centre back in this league, but it's a pre-requisite. We're basically hoping for an incredibly rare exception.

It's funny how everyone who doubted this signing and the pundits are called dinosaurs, when current active premier league managers are specifically targeting what they perceive to be a weakness. So current PL managers are also dinosaurs as they instantly assume a weakness when they see a lack of height. And none of them current premier league managers have 5ft9 centre backs in their team every week, which must be a coincidence. Even "progressive" managers like Klopp only has giant centre backs, which must be another coincidence. Or maybe he's a dinosaur too.

 

[sglowrider]

Mascherano is the same height as Martinez.

Yes but how often did he play CB? He was signed as a DM by the scousers. He was an accidental CB and a RB.
You can also find 1 guy out of 1000 who smokes 2 packs of ciggies a day and don't suffer from lung cancer too. Doesn't mean there isn't a huge risk of smoking 2 packs of fags a day?

Why take such a big risk for your very first big signing at your new club? £50m plus add-ons is a huge gamble when no manager in the top 6 would take that risk. It means that either ETH is serious ignorant of the PL or he really thinks Martinez has something in him that can overcome being bullied off the park.

Martinez could be the litmus test on ETH. Either turns out to be a genius move or something that be the symbol of his failure.

 

[Dominos]

I feel this was the job of our recruitment department of chief scout/DOF to say "no I don't think this is wise. There are taller CBs who are also good on the ball. We would advise one of these names etc etc" but our recruitment team just rely on the manager.

To be fair, we were linked with the likes of Pau Torres and Bastoni so the club clearly were looking at other centre backs.

It looks like what's happened is ETH has come in and dismissed club targets and Ralf's recommendations in favour of picking his own targets where possible. The club has been cowardly in appeasing him and trying to absolve themselves of responsibility. Having said that, if the media got wind that we were overruling ETH's requests and he wasn't getting his targets then they'd be getting similarly criticised, so they couldn't win from a public perception standpoint.

 

[sglowrider]

I feel this was the job of our recruitment department of chief scout/DOF to say "no I don't think this is wise. There are taller CBs who are also good on the ball. We would advise one of these names etc etc" but our recruitment team just rely on the manager.

Two possibilities:

1) Our top recruitment heads were both sacked like few months ago. So Murtough who is more like an administrator/GM of Football Ops probably isn't in a position to push any particular guy.
2) ETH may have in his contract requirements that he wants so & so players before he signs the dotted lines. That list probably included Antony and Martinez/Timber.

If Martinez was like £20million then ok, its a worthwhile gamble. But at £50million plus add-ons, he needs to be an instant CB starter -- for some one at 5ft 8?

Christ... Martinez cost more than proven at the highest level, Varane, a 4 time CL and WC winner.

Like I said earlier, time will tell whether its a genius move by ETH or Martinez becomes a symbol or laughing stock of all is whats wrong at United.

 

[CarbonStoolBites]

2 games in, one of the best footballing teams in the league in Brighton have lumped long balls towards him, and Brentford have done the same, and we've also conceded a direct duel on a set piece. It will continue to happen all season by all sorts of teams.

We conceded one goal out of the 7 from a set piece that can be partly blamed on Martinez, that goal could have been easily avoided as well if we had a competent goalkeeper who isn’t a coward.

Brighton and Brentford didn’t beat us by “lumping long balls” towards Martinez, they beat us by forcing inexcusable mistakes from the likes of De Gea and Shaw and by intensively pressing us with 3 players in our own box in the early stages of the games which again led to mistakes and our weak spirited players couldn’t handle it so we collapsed after conceding the first goal like a stack of cards.

Not to mention how shit we’ve been at defending set pieces even when we fielded teams with the likes of Matic, McTominay and Pogba.

But sure, lets blame the new guy because he’s short.

 

[Dominos]

It was completely counter-intuitive to get such a short CB for the PL -- who I highly doubt is even 5ft 9in. Closer to 5ft 7.

The thing I find funny about these "height doesn't matter" people, is even they would concede at some point a reported height on paper should rule someone out from being a centre back.

There's no way they'd maintain height doesn't matter if he was listed as 5ft6 or 5ft7 for example. So they're happy to call other people dinosaurs for suggesting 5ft9 is too short, but they themselves would be trotting out the same argument if he was just a couple of inches shorter. They're giving themselves a pat on the back for being progressive because their cut-off for height requirements aren't quite as harsh as some other fans.