I think probably that Fred as a midfielder has completely abandoned his position and the ball broke exactly where he should have been stood.
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I think probably that Fred as a midfielder has completely abandoned his position and the ball broke exactly where he should have been stood.
Ok, he was playing DM. I don't think he can abandon that position and move forward. It should have been either Bruno or Eriksen.
2:33
Fred thought Ronaldo could win header, so he moved away from his position, left huge space behind which then Brendford exploited.
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You see that bit of space fallengt has kindly circled? Go rewatch the goal and see who vacates that area of the pitch, then ask yourself if that player might have been in a better position to close down Da Silva than Martínez was.
Obviously the 100% was a daft comment but so was looking to bring Martínez into it.
tbh… was just using it as an excuse to make a crap joke….
and I’m sure he will have his qualities.
but it does make me laugh how people will tie themselves in knots to not say anything negative about a player just cos he is new.
he deserves time. As does the manager obvs.
But at the same time you shouldn’t be chastised by saying it looks on the surface a pretty naive decision to buy a 5ft 9in CB to start in a partnership in the PL. Can you think of a single elite PL CB playing in a flat back 4 who has been under 6ft in 30 years? I can’t. Most likely for good reason.
Just like you don’t see many 6ft 5in lanky wingers turning full backs inside out with their quick changes of direction. It’s because they aren’t physically suited to the role.
Got it, agree. He shouldn't have gotten forward.
It's a treasure map.
We keep signing players with clear and obvious issues for big money. Lukaku's technique, Maguire's mobility, AWB's all round footballing ability, Lisandro and his size. Even guys like Sancho had concerns around his pace. Fans get excited by the prospect of a big money signing, insist these issues with not be a problem, they end up being a problem.
Our scouts should know better.
Playing Maguire and LIsandro together is building a partnerhship with critical areas of concern in both partners. It can't work in the PL.
Our scouts should know better.
Playing Maguire and LIsandro together is building a partnerhship with critical areas of concern in both partners. It can't work in the PL.
https://ballerzbantz.com/2022/08/13...-case-study-of-lisandro-martinez-vs-brighton/
Interesting breakdown of Martinez vs Brighton (framed around Aerial Duel stats) which (I feel) illustrates the issues some (@Annihilate Now! , @Pogue Mahone @Leftback99 @Chief123 @Bobski etc) have had with his performances (with Stills,Gifs and infographics).
I'm sure there will be something similar produced for the Brentford game.
From what I can tell nobody is saying "He is the reason we are shit" it's moreso "He isn't making us any more defensively solid".
Not "He's THE problem in defence" (Just look at Maguire/ Dalot/ Shaw performance threads) more "He's A problem in defence".
Interesting breakdown of Martinez vs Brighton (framed around Aerial Duel stats) which (I feel) illustrates the issues some (@Annihilate Now! , @Pogue Mahone @Leftback99 @Chief123 @Bobski etc) have had with his performances (with Stills,Gifs and infographics).
I'm sure there will be something similar produced for the Brentford game.
From what I can tell nobody is saying "He is the reason we are shit" it's moreso "He isn't making us any more defensively solid".
Not "He's THE problem in defence" (Just look at Maguire/ Dalot/ Shaw performance threads) more "He's A problem in defence".
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A minor point but across the two gameweeks people are using to write off Martinez as being too short, Man City have kept back to back clean sheets having started the third shortest CB in the league in a back four. The key difference being what they're surrounded by, not the few CM difference in height between those two players.
Meanwhile Chelsea have two of the four shortest CBs in the league and had originally been looking to make it 3/4 by adding either the aforementioned Ake or Jules Kounde.
The point being that the system matters, a lot.
Meanwhile Chelsea have two of the four shortest CBs in the league and had originally been looking to make it 3/4 by adding either the aforementioned Ake or Jules Kounde.
The point being that the system matters, a lot.
He got beat for that header, but he was not positioned on the post to begin with. It seemed more like he was just unlucky to me and landed favourably for Mee.
You can see he recognized the danger early as the cross flew over the pack, so he immediately moved to mark the goal line. The ball landed favourably for Mee as it was a bit closer to the far post compared to where Martinez was positioned.
I'm not saying he'd have beaten him in a straight contest, I doubt he would have given his size. But I think it was unlucky.
I think CR7 can also shoulder some blame. He just stood there as the header came back towards them, and then backed off as it landed for Mee and Martinez. He was actually closer to where the ball ended up for Mee, then Martinez was, originally.
With 6"3 Rodri as a front screen in front of him. Ten Hag decided to put Eriksen, never noted for his defensive or aerial prowess in front.
You focusing on the good results like it was the norm. What about the following season. Didn't we score 40 goals or something?
True. Though it's equally true that the CB and LB beside Ake are shorter than the CB and LB supporting Martinez. I think the system itself and the general ability of the team is more the difference.
I also note Rabiot (who we seem interested in) is 6ft 2.
Liverpool have Fabinho, Arsenal Xhaka. People will scoff but it is true that one of the reasons MCT has played so many games is his aerial prowess, wins a lot of ball in the air from goal kicks, clearances and the like, might not be glamourous but it is an important part of the game, ugly side or not.
Martinez is a question mark, definitely. But, we didn’t lost the game due to him being short. It’s DDG, then they just played low block to counter attack. If he will be an obvious weakness, we are better not to drawing the conclusion too quickly. Also, it’s about the setup.
It's WUM of a post. LVG was a snoozefest. People just love to ignore it.
I noted this is an article by the Athletic about Martinez' height too:
It might be that's exactly how we'd intend to deal with similar match-ups, with someone like Rabiot dropping deep to assist.
Honestly I've heard of targeting fullbacks on defense, but I've never heard of targeting a center back.. It's their job to defend ffs
Honestly I've heard of targeting fullbacks on defense, but I've never heard of targeting a center back.. It's their job to defend ffs
People have been targeting Lindelof for years, he just makes it hard for them to do it as he(seems to) actively avoids getting involved in challenges.
Yeah Rodri always seems to be winning a lot in the air for them. Ake has also also had years acclimatising to the league and is a completely different build to Martinez. I was actually surprised he was under 6ft.
I was expecting him to play as a DM. If CD is where he is planned to play, it is a bad signing. Murtough should be sacked for overpaying as well.
So was mourinho, particularly his second season. Doesn't stop people from talking fondly about him.
There is a player in there. He reads the game well and looks very good on the ball. He didn't do much wrong other than the third goal, which was more a slip than a height issue. Any player could have done that.
He will be fine, as long as we get a true DM in front of him.
He will be fine, as long as we get a true DM in front of him.
The worst thing about Mourinho's second season was that the league was over in January. Nothing to play for but the EL then
Absolutely certain he’ll come good, once (if) ETH is able to stamp his ideas on the team and get them to execute it out on the pitch.
The worry is that we’ve signed him prematurely, and that it will never happen because we didn’t prioritise upgrading other roles ahead of him.
The worry is that we’ve signed him prematurely, and that it will never happen because we didn’t prioritise upgrading other roles ahead of him.
The defence will become more solid when the team is playing together, with the correct players that the manager needs in the right positions. Martinez wasn't signed as some Van Dijk style CB, he is the player that will enable us to initiate the manager's style of football from the back. The fee was obviously very high, but his signing wasn't supposed to shore up the defence in the traditional sense, it's bringing us a type of CB that we didn't have(Lindelof is just not that guy), that will hopefully change the way we play, once the team adjusts to the new methods.
I don't think he's a bad player at all, in fact I think he's quite good and composed on the ball.
I know him from his time in the Argentine league (Vs Racing with Lautaro for example)
My only argument is that fans aren't being gaslighted by the media into thinking that his height/ aerial prowess/ physicality (whatever way anyone wants to say it) are an issue.
Eventually the system will cover for those issues and can get the best out of him but that will take time.
I like him. He would have been our missing piece if ETH atleast had an year of experience with us. Problem is, there are way too many issues to address now and guy has to be taken out of firing line. He will come good .
Thanks, that was an interesting read.
That was exactly my point though... That our best team under LVG would handily be at this one.
Is a WUM to suggest that when we were at our best team under LVG would beat this team? How exactly is that a WUM.
Our best sides under any of our previous managers would beat this one... Have you seen us in 2022!?
There was nothing poor about it.
Given our lack of DM in midfield and lack of good midfielders and having Varane/Lindelof in reserve... Wouldn't mind starting him in midfield next to somebody (not sure who though, they're all white there) and using Lindelof and Varane as partners.
How exactly do you define the best of LVG team ? Especially considering we haven't seen the best of ETH till now ? That's why I called it as WUM because that's just complaining for the sake of it.
Small does equal bad for a central defender, yes. People love to cite wild exceptions to that rule such as Cannavaro, but there's a reason why it's always the same few names brought up every time, and that's because being 5'9" is less than ideal for a top level central defender and there have been very few world class ones who've been that height. Thomas Frank literally said in his post-match interview that they targeted Martinez because of his height, after seeing Brighton do so successfully last week. He's been identified by opposition managers as the weak link in United's back line two games in. Every other team in the league is going to do exactly the same thing for the rest of the season, putting their biggest attacking players directly up against him and trying to bully him. That isn't to say he can't possibly come good and prove everybody wrong, but it's worrying currently that the club has signed a player for nearly £60m and Brentford's manager is gleefully telling the media that they were delighted to see his name on the team sheet.
I define the best LVG team to be the one that went on that run in 2015 that included beating City and Liverpool, like I assume most people do. Do you not think that team would beat this current team? (and this is not ETH team in my opinion)
We'll only see the best of ETH when he has pretty much a different line up to this one. I personally don't believe we can be a good side with our current personel... That's not a wind up, it's an opinion. Our current side isn't anywhere near a top 6 side.
Complaining is all we can do at the moment... Hard to be cheerful about anything currently.
I'm not writing this guy off at all. From the accounts i've read/heard he's got a very good character and is mentally very tough. Let's hope we see this in the games to come.
Given our midfield issues, i wouldn't mind seeing him given a few games there considering we have no recognized DM. Failing that, i'd like to see a back 3 with him, Varane, and one of Maguire or Lindelof, just to give the defence a bit more solidity.
Given our midfield issues, i wouldn't mind seeing him given a few games there considering we have no recognized DM. Failing that, i'd like to see a back 3 with him, Varane, and one of Maguire or Lindelof, just to give the defence a bit more solidity.
It's the degree to which it's being highlighted that's the issue.
Yesterday what our defence did in possession was clearly a much bigger problem than how they dealt with aerial threat. But for some reason it was Martinez' height that became a talking point after the game.
People are saying Frank alluded to it, but only after the reporter directly brought up the subject of Martinez' height to him. Ditto Toney and ETH, with Toney stating that our inability to deal with the press was the actual issue and ETH rightly pointing out that height had nothing to do with the goals we conceded.
It's not that the media are gaslighting people into thinking his physicality is an issue. It's that it's being presented as the core issue yesterday, when it simply wasn't. And I can only think that's because pointing to Martinez' height requires little actual insight or fits a pre-existing narrative people had.
Because if Martinez was 6ft 2 and played the last two games in exactly the same way, his aerial ability wouldn't have been mentioned. We'd just have heard the more generic (and accurate) "he needs to adapt to the pace of the PL" type comments.
You answered your own question though. You are comparing a team that was settled after many games with a team that just started. Don't you think it's unfair ?
I think that covers a lot of what went wrong against Brentford too. It wasn’t about him being consistently out-jumped so much as the opposition being able to ping a long, high ball towards a target man who would isolate Martinez and receive it more or less uncontested. That’s happened a lot in the first two games and will continue to happen a lot. This would obviously be less of an issue if everyone round him was a bit more switched on about winning the second ball (if we, shock horror, played a central midfielder who knows how to defend) but it’s still a new problem we need to deal with. And signing a very expensive new player should really solve problems, not create them.
This team is largely the same team as last season...
Even after a year under ETH this side wouldn't be that good, because ultimately, the players aren't good enough.
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