[Rozay]

I don't need to know what's in people's minds when they make it clear with their comments.

Your premise is that Martinez' size means he will struggle against certain types of strikers, citing the reality of basic physics. And you point to Ivan Toney as an example of the type of striker Martinez will struggle against.

Yet Toney is only minimally bigger than Martinez physically.

This could mean you think even that scale of a physical advantage is significant enough for Martinez to be as outmatched as you anticipate, in which case you straight up don't understand physics as applied to body dynamics. Because that minimal a size difference simply doesn't confer the degree of innate advantage you are anticipating when you say Martinez will "invariably lose".

Or you're basing your assesment of Toney's ability to dominate players on more than just his physical stature, in which case you're applying a different standard to him than you are to Martinez.

Or you simply didn't know Toney was as small as he is, not realising that framing him as such a physically dominant presence undermined the point about size you were trying to make regarding Martinez.

Either way, the argument makes no sense. If physical size is that limiting, it should apply to Toney versus the 6ft+ CBs he regularly beats physically even more than it applies to Martinez versus Toney. By the standard of your argument against Martinez, Toney should "invariably lose" those duels he regularly wins against far larger opponents.

Not sure that’s how it works where you create a bunch of hypotheticals and then dismiss them as my argument making no sense.

But anyway, it is not based on his height as such, it is more his strength. Watching Martinez, he looks thin and weak. I wouldn’t expect Toney to push David Alaba around, simply because he looks a lot stronger than Martinez, despite also being a short centre half, or even Tyrell Malacia. I would expect Brian Brobbey to push Victor Lindelöf around despite being shorter than him because he is stronger than him. It’s not that complicated, and doesn’t require this level of sensitivity quite frankly. Martinez will struggle against players who are bigger and stronger than him in physical duels.

I’m also far from convinced that Toney is only 1cm taller than Martinez or whatever anyway, but that’s by the way.

 

[sullydnl]

Former Brighton striker Glenn Murray agrees the game is “not as aerial as it once was” and height “matters less now”. But he wonders how long that will be the case. “You don’t know how the game is going to evolve,” he says. “If people see a weakness where all back fours are under 6ft then someone will think, ‘Right, I’m going to start buying some 6ft 4in (193cm) centre-forwards and putting the ball in the box’. It’s about what’s fashionable at the moment. And right now, you don’t need to be as big or as physically dominant being a centre-back, especially at the top level.”

Why not? “Defending is more technical now,” says [Ben] Mee. “Receiving the ball from your keeper happens a lot more, rather than long balls.” With centre-halves called on less often to win aerial challenges there is often more focus on how accomplished a player is with their feet when in possession than on how strong they are in the air. “Those defenders now are expected to be more like midfield players,” says Reading’s head of football operations Mark Bowen, “comfortable getting it off the keeper and initiating play.”

There is one area of the game where Mee says there are still benefits to being taller though: set plays. “If you’re up against a giant it’s difficult to be physical against them enough to put them off — that’s probably the only part of it where being tall is an advantage at the minute.” But there are some teams for whom that part of the game holds less importance, reducing their need for height at the back.

“It’s going to depend on what your team’s profile is. What’s the playing style?” asks Swansea City set-piece coach Andy Parslow. “A team like Manchester City don’t need to worry so much about defending set pieces because they have the ball so much they don’t defend many of them.

“A team like that can probably afford to have less (height), however, they also want to look at how they can get marginal gains from scoring from set pieces, which is why the likes of (Aymeric) Laporte and (Ruben) Dias are useful for them. So there is certainly a level of importance (to height) but perhaps less so than for a team who would rely a lot more on scoring and not conceding from set pieces.”

“I’ll prepare by seeing what they’re good at. Usually the tall players don’t jump a lot because they’ve never really had to. So a lot of the time you’re trying to get an early jump on them and using your body to get above them. Or if a player is quite clever at using their body, they’re always looking to body you before you head the ball. So you’re trying to move them around a bit more so that they take their eye off the ball and you can go and win it.

“Whoever you come up against there’s always something different about them and how they attack the ball — some players like to run and jump to attack it so you need to use your body a bit more. Against tall players at set plays it’ll be more bodying as well. You probably won’t compete as much but will just use your body a bit better.”

While the ability to think on your feet and use your body are necessary attributes for a smaller defender, Mee echoes Parslow in saying the aggression side of it is equally important: “The competing. Wanting to beat your opponent more. When you’re giving up something against your opponent, you need to add in other areas. That’s important in any position really. Outside of the very top players, you’re always giving up something, whether it be pace, cleverness, strength or power. Good players are always trying to work around that by gaining in other areas.”

Having a lower centre of gravity can sometimes be a bonus. “In the modern game that’s what it’s about; turning, twisting, recovery runs,” Mee adds. “There are a lot of teams that like to press high now, so getting on the half turn and being able to run back towards your own goal is definitely an advantage. Especially now, when there are a lot of quick players — a lot of wide men who like to travel with the ball and in quick interplay — it’s always good if you can move your feet quickly.”

As a more physical striker, Murray’s initial instinct would be to say he’d rather play against a smaller centre-back. But in reality he says they are often more agile and quicker over the ground. “They’re less likely to play to my strengths,” he explains. They wouldn’t try to go up physically against me. They’d try nipping in front of me. They’d try and ease me under the ball. I often found that smaller defenders were harder to pin; they didn’t allow you to pin them because they knew that was their weakness. So they’d try to step in front or they had really good timing and a great leap.

“But it’s all based on how good the defender is at doing his job. If I would go onto him and he was a bit more agile than me then I’d probably try my luck at the other centre-back. But if I went on him and physically dominated then I’d stay on him.”

Murray adds the emphasis should be more on the team playing to that individual’s strengths rather than on size. “Look at (Harry) Maguire. He’s had a torrid time at Manchester United and he’s the archetypal centre-back: strong, physical, tall, dominant. But he hasn’t really suited the way they play so much. You can put any sort of player in any position and if you don’t play to their strengths then they’re not going to look as good as they have done in previous regimes that have suited them.”

So how important is height for a centre-back in the current game? It’s key, but perhaps not as key as it used to be. “It’s important to have some height in the team,” says Parslow. “So it does matter, yes. But with quality pitches and more possession-based football in the modern game, height in centre-backs — though still a desirable characteristic – holds less weight in comparison with footballing ability than it used to.

 

[klayton88]

 

[criticalanalysis]

I don’t remember Martinez actually getting tested physically one v one against welbeck.

I remember 2 instances where welbeck got the better of him. Once where they ball was played in behind our defence and Martinez tried to slide intercept it but missed it. Welbeck got in behind but luckily Martinez was able to get back and get a recovery tackle in. Another was when welbeck outjumped Martinez for a cross that came in which welbeck headed well over which should have been on target.

I don’t think it was a bad debut as some have said here. But it was also a debut which gave me some concern of potential problems going into future games.

We can hide it all we want but I’ll say it again, defending set pieces is going to be a major issue for us this season. Maguire and Mctominay were our only players who had any physical presence in the box. If we come up with a team which has 3 or more big lads, we will struggle on corners and set pieces.

That's exactly my point. Either I didn't see it during the game and therefore I would like for someone to point out the examples or people have just made their mind up.

As for the aerials thing, I think it can be largely overstated. A team switched on and trained on how to deal with set pieces is a far more appropriate way to look our frailties rather than just individual players. De Gea is essentially a net negative in this regard and even Maguire/Varane (aerial stalwarts) look many a time at unease when dealing with crosses into their own box.

Also if you check out the video I posted previously, he actually reads a couple of crosses quite well. If he can translate some of his aerial stats from the Dutch League over here then he'll do well; this is the exact same thing people said about Varane and whether Premier League strikers would not be as 'soft' as La Liga. Obviously, it's a much bigger stretch considering the comparisons but the stats don't lie and can't be that much of an outlier.




It's exactly the type of cross someone like Lindelof fails to deal with despite being 'bigger', taller etc. I'm ready to turn on him if he becomes another Lindelof but the criticism is far too harsh based on feeling rather than what's happening on the pitch imo. His reading of aerials and the game look sharp for me.

Not sure that’s how it works where you create a bunch of hypotheticals and then dismiss them as my argument making no sense.

But anyway, it is not based on his height as such, it is more his strength. Watching Martinez, he looks thin and weak. I wouldn’t expect Toney to push David Alaba around, simply because he looks a lot stronger than Martinez, despite also being a short centre half, or even Tyrell Malacia. I would expect Brian Brobbey to push Victor Lindelöf around despite being shorter than him because he is stronger than him. It’s not that complicated, and doesn’t require this level of sensitivity quite frankly. Martinez will struggle against players who are bigger and stronger than him in physical duels.

I’m also far from convinced that Toney is only 1cm taller than Martinez or whatever anyway, but that’s by the way.

I'm not saying Martinez is strong and perhaps the Brentford game (if he plays) will give us more examples but I didn't see much in the Brighton game to suggest he is 'weak'. I really would like to see the specific moments in the game you are basing this on.

 

[Mr PG]

Yep, good at passing, but that was just about it. Bullied by a very average striker and a clear penalty on your debut isn't ideal.

Give him time. Evra and Vidic looked worse on their debut.

 

[Devil_forever]

1 fecking Game.

Maybe we have a couple of air heads upstairs just like your post.

Then maybe in a few games when it’s clear his deficiencies are making him a liability in such a physical league then you two will have a change of heart. Mind you he was so beyond reckless at times, which has nothing to do with a new league.

 

[Just Hope]

We really should hold judgement until he has at least a few games in the team.

While height is a good metric, realistically the skill distribution at certain height brackets is massive: Haaland and Ibrahimovic are not of the same mold as Crouch or Weghorst.

And skill can make up the difference in physicality.

 

[Isotope]

Like what he's shown so far. Looks like United first Argentinian that will be very good. (No, i don't think Heinze and Tevez were very good with us).

 

[Raees]

Like what he's shown so far. Looks like United first Argentinian that will be very good. (No, i don't think Heinze and Tevez were very good with us).

Heinze was solid and Tevez won a UCL with us and was brilliant during 07/08. We were the ones who treated him like shit the following season by bringing in Berbaflop.

 

[Isotope]

Heinze was solid and Tevez won a UCL with us and was brilliant during 07/08. We were the ones who treated him like shit the following season by bringing in Berbaflop.

Yeah, Heinze was solid. Never thought that Tevez "won" us the CL other than he's taking part. Tevez was a terrier for us but at that time it just felt he's replaceable. His time with us was far away from his performance with City or Juve, which was world class on the laters. But i could be wrong. It's been a while since he's here.

 

[Leftback99]

It was only one match but it was everything I feared it would be. Having an obvious weakness will be targeted at PL level.

The hope is that him and the team adapt quickly to a level where his work in possession is more important so that we are doing less defending leaving us less exposed. As others mention, a tall DM would help.

'If' it doesn't work out, I see him at LB rather than DM. The same way Ben White is now playing RB replaced by 6'4" Saliba.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Yeah, Heinze was solid. Never thought that Tevez "won" us the CL other than he's taking part. Tevez was a terrier for us but at that time it just felt he's replaceable. His time with us was far away from his performance with City or Juve, which was world class on the laters. But i could be wrong. It's been a while since he's here.

Nah that's spot on. Tevez was good for us and played a vital role, but he was nowhere near his City or Juve level with us.

 

[Isotope]

Nah that's spot on. Tevez was good for us and played a vital role, but he was nowhere near his City or Juve level with us.

Thanks for confirming it. Tevez at City was just incredible as main striker. His role there was different than with us. Have to admit, I did love the fecker when he was with us though. Evra, Tevez, and Park bromance was just so cute and heartwarming.

On Martinez, I did like what i saw. My main fear was how he cope with heading and physical battle. Overall, I thought he did well on both points. It was pretty decent debut on a new League; with little pre-season.

 

[Sandikan]

Someone I know reckons he should be played centre mid.
That'd be incredible if we pay 55m for a centre back then have to play him in another position. Where he hasn't played for years.

 

[Stacks]

Yeah, Heinze was solid. Never thought that Tevez "won" us the CL other than he's taking part. Tevez was a terrier for us but at that time it just felt he's replaceable. His time with us was far away from his performance with City or Juve, which was world class on the laters. But i could be wrong. It's been a while since he's here.

Es verdad. He was important but it's overstated. Saha was as good imo. Deffo replaceable

 

[VanDeBank]

This is just not how it works.

Look at the first clip starting 25 seconds. A long ball from the goalkeeper and the striker pinned the smaller centre back, easily won the flick on and was through on goal 2 seconds later. In the 2nd clip at 1:59 striker wins the aerial long ball and Dortmund briefly had a 2v1 or 2v2 but messed it up. You cannot avoid physical battles just by playing a certain style of football.

People on here would have you think that type of football got left behind in the 90s and it's not something we need to worry about any more. In reality crosses, set pieces and long balls are just an inevitable part of the game that you will have to deal with in every match. Playing a high line and keeping possession reduce the frequency of dangerous situations but not to the point where you can afford to have a weakness in those incidents.

Spoiler: .

Spoiler: .

You should read my post better.

I was only talking about height, not being physically weak.

 

[Yagami]

The only difference between Tevez's time here and City and Juve was that he was more clinical after us.

His general play was key to us being as good as we were. Not his defensive work, but being our strongest player on the ball under pressure, his playmaking when dropping deep, his ball carrying. All so underrated during his two years here.

 

[A-man]

Lack of physicality in the terms of small biceps was not a big problem in this match. Sure, there were a few situations where I remember I thought he looked a bit weak but nothing that really sticks out. Maybe he struggled a little in the air. Wellbeck could comfortably head the ball two times in our box where a taller CB probably would have at least challenged a little.

The big problem was his inability to defend against runs and passes in to the space behind him. I can easily remember 3-4 situations when that’s how Brighton created chances.

 

[Adam-Utd]

That's a solid debut, especially when you remember he barely had a pre season and hasn't actually played alongside Maguire yet.

People saying he looks weak or bad aerially are clearly inventing things in their heads. Yes he's small in height but he jumps like a Salmon.

Lack of physicality in the terms of small biceps was not a big problem in this match. Sure, there were a few situations where I remember I thought he looked a bit weak but nothing that really sticks out. Maybe he struggled a little in the air. Wellbeck could comfortably head the ball two times in our box where a taller CB probably would have at least challenged a little.

The big problem was his inability to defend against runs and passes in to the space behind him. I can easily remember 3-4 situations when that’s how Brighton created chances.

That was more a midfield issue though, if you look at the first goal Trossard has so much time to get his head up, wait for Welbeck to start his run + time it perfectly to break the defensive line. I'm not really sure what any CB's could do better in that moment. We simply cannot allow teams to play in front of our defence so easily. It didn't help Dalot looked like a rabbit in headlights either.

It was a similar theme through most of the first half especially, but we got to grips with it in the 2nd half.

 

[A-man]

That was more a midfield issue though, if you look at the first goal Trossard has so much time to get his head up, wait for Welbeck to start his run + time it perfectly to break the defensive line. I'm not really sure what any CB's could do better in that moment. We simply cannot allow teams to play in front of our defence so easily. It didn't help Dalot looked like a rabbit in headlights either.

It was a similar theme through most of the first half especially, but we got to grips with it in the 2nd half.

I’m not just talking about the goal, it was happening several times. Yes our midfield failed at that goal and the opponents got an ocean of space, but that has happened every game the last 2 seasons. When it happens, it’s the CBs who must defend the space behind them. There were also instances where midfield did not fail, and we still screw up. Like the long ball from the goalie where Wellbeck was slightly offside. Part of it I blame that they were a new CB pair and hopefully it can improve.

Edit. As many have already said, Martinez is probably better in a team with possession than a team that defend the way we do.

 

[SalfordTED]

I don’t remember Martinez actually getting tested physically one v one against welbeck.

I remember 2 instances where welbeck got the better of him. Once where they ball was played in behind our defence and Martinez tried to slide intercept it but missed it. Welbeck got in behind but luckily Martinez was able to get back and get a recovery tackle in. Another was when welbeck outjumped Martinez for a cross that came in which welbeck headed well over which should have been on target.

I don’t think it was a bad debut as some have said here. But it was also a debut which gave me some concern of potential problems going into future games.

We can hide it all we want but I’ll say it again, defending set pieces is going to be a major issue for us this season. Maguire and Mctominay were our only players who had any physical presence in the box. If we come up with a team which has 3 or more big lads, we will struggle on corners and set pieces.

The penalty claim incident - where he pushed Wellbeck over - Dermot Gallagher analysis - wrong decision

 

[Adam-Utd]

The penalty claim incident - where he pushed Wellbeck over - Dermot Gallagher analysis - wrong decision

You mean where he outmuscled the big strong striker? guess that's a +1 for physicality then

 

[Carl]

The penalty claim incident - where he pushed Wellbeck over - Dermot Gallagher analysis - wrong decision

Don't think it needed "expert analysys". Everyone apart from the ref and VAR could see that was a pen.

I enjoyed his debut. Clearly very comfortable on the ball and seemed really positive in his actions around the pitch. Definitely some iffy moments defensively though.

 

[Chief123]

The penalty claim incident - where he pushed Wellbeck over - Dermot Gallagher analysis - wrong decision

But that wasn’t an example of him being physically outmuscled which is what we are talking about.

 

[Trex]

Seeing him on Sunday stand in the defense didn't really feel me with confidence, reason because I'm use to see bigger guys in defense I guess it will take a while for my mind to get use to it.
Solid debut though!!

 

[bond19821982]

That's exactly my point. Either I didn't see it during the game and therefore I would like for someone to point out the examples or people have just made their mind up.

As for the aerials thing, I think it can be largely overstated. A team switched on and trained on how to deal with set pieces is a far more appropriate way to look our frailties rather than just individual players. De Gea is essentially a net negative in this regard and even Maguire/Varane (aerial stalwarts) look many a time at unease when dealing with crosses into their own box.

Also if you check out the video I posted previously, he actually reads a couple of crosses quite well. If he can translate some of his aerial stats from the Dutch League over here then he'll do well; this is the exact same thing people said about Varane and whether Premier League strikers would not be as 'soft' as La Liga. Obviously, it's a much bigger stretch considering the comparisons but the stats don't lie and can't be that much of an outlier.




It's exactly the type of cross someone like Lindelof fails to deal with despite being 'bigger', taller etc. I'm ready to turn on him if he becomes another Lindelof but the criticism is far too harsh based on feeling rather than what's happening on the pitch imo. His reading of aerials and the game look sharp for me.



I'm not saying Martinez is strong and perhaps the Brentford game (if he plays) will give us more examples but I didn't see much in the Brighton game to suggest he is 'weak'. I really would like to see the specific moments in the game you are basing this on.

Decent debut. Can't see lot of negatives. He will get better.

 

[Raees]

Yeah, Heinze was solid. Never thought that Tevez "won" us the CL other than he's taking part. Tevez was a terrier for us but at that time it just felt he's replaceable. His time with us was far away from his performance with City or Juve, which was world class on the laters. But i could be wrong. It's been a while since he's here.

Tevez gave that frontline the fluidity and secondary aggression along with Rooney that enabled Ronaldo to do damage.

He had that ability in tight spaces which Rooney didn’t quite have post metatarsal and was the perfect CF for that system almost a false 9 in some respects.

His goal return wasn’t great but we wouldn’t have won a UCL without him. Put him in that final against Barca we would stand a better chance. He’s the type of player they would hate to face.

 

[The_Midfielder]

welbeck did all his work off the ball with clever forward running. He’s hardly a small weak striker either, he’s always been great at hold up.

Welbeck is good in everything except scoring.. We all know that

 

[Adam-Utd]

Welbeck is good in everything except scoring.. We all know that

Pretty much. We made the mistake of forgetting to mark that little buggar Gross instead.

 

[Bobski]

Lack of physicality in the terms of small biceps was not a big problem in this match. Sure, there were a few situations where I remember I thought he looked a bit weak but nothing that really sticks out. Maybe he struggled a little in the air. Wellbeck could comfortably head the ball two times in our box where a taller CB probably would have at least challenged a little.

The big problem was his inability to defend against runs and passes in to the space behind him. I can easily remember 3-4 situations when that’s how Brighton created chances.

This, it was Welbecks runs into the channels on diagonal balls that were causing danger, he was gaining easy serparation from both the CB's. Aerial challenges were not the problem in that game, perhaps there were a few times when Welbeck held him off quite easily when holding the ball up but it was tracking runs and pace over distance that stood out as a larger problem.

 

[Water Melon]

The guy gave away a crystal clear penatly which was not awarded luckily. That debut was okay, but I do have some concerns regarding him playing against bigger and stronger attackers.

 

[A-man]

This, it was Welbecks runs into the channels on diagonal balls that were causing danger, he was gaining easy serparation from both the CB's. Aerial challenges were not the problem in that game, perhaps there were a few times when Welbeck held him off quite easily when holding the ball up but it was tracking runs and pace over distance that stood out as a larger problem.

I think/hope it will be better if the Maguire and Martinez get to play some matches together, because they looked really disorganised at times. At the second goal they didn’t know whom to follow or what area to protect. But tracking runs has never been Maguire’s strength and it doesn’t look like a strength of Martinez either. I think there are few CBs who are good at both aggressively pushing forward, and at covering the space behind. It takes different mentalities maybe.

 

[CarbonStoolBites]

Pretty shocking amount of criticism for an ok debut in a new league in a team coming back of its worst season in decades with a new manager.
You people would’ve hounded out Jaap Stam after he was made to look like a hungover Sunday league level CB by Anelka in the charity shield, he got absolutely rinsed.

Not sure if Martinez was a particularly necessary signing given the issues in other areas but he was far from terrible.

PS that wasn’t a penalty, you would have been laughed at for suggesting that was a penalty few years ago.

 

[Red the Bear]

Pretty shocking amount of criticism for an ok debut in a new league in a team coming back of its worst season in decades with a new manager.
You people would’ve hounded out Jaap Stam after he was made to look like a hungover Sunday league level CB by Anelka in the charity shield, he got absolutely rinsed.

Not sure if Martinez was a particularly necessary signing given the issues in other areas but he was far from terrible.

PS that wasn’t a penalty, you would have been laughed at for suggesting that was a penalty few years ago.

Pretty much, i don't understand why folk are getting so worked up about this, thought the height thing was mostly sarcasm.

 

[Andersonson]

Like what he's shown so far. Looks like United first Argentinian that will be very good. (No, i don't think Heinze and Tevez were very good with us).

They werent? What a weird post

 

[Zetrio2002]

Referring to video,
He's afraid to dribble and lazy to do short one-two passing.

 

[Just Hope]

Referring to video,
He's afraid to dribble and lazy to do short one-two passing.

I do not think it is fear. Most likely he understood that as the last man the risk was not worth it due to the fact that not one was showing up to receive the ball.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Laughed far too much than I should have at that. Too much gin I think.

 

[bugmat]

He was quite ok for me - he grew with the game and Danny made a bit of a meal of the contact (and yes it could have been a penalty but harsh if by the law). Not sure how well he will do if he and Magurie dont strike up an understanding - that much was clearly and unsurprisingly not there in their first game together. I think, like Evra, he will grow with games.

 

[Blood Mage]

I do worry that he will struggle as a CB in this league and he'll end up as a backup utility player for us.