[Cassidy]

How? He was the best in the first half, had that goal saving tackle on Nunez alongwith his passing being as good as usual

I remember just one bad moment against Salah when he slipped and maybe that tackle on Gakpo. How is that a disgrace?

Because reasons

 

[Dominos]

It’s quite something to have undergone the batterings he has and still be viewed entirely positively as a new centre back. We’ve conceded more goals after 25 games this season than we did last season.

It’s a weird one. I’m pretty sure he’s been good, but I’ve also been in the camp that he’s been a little overrated, and I think Casemiro and ETH have made a much bigger, more tangible difference. I’m not sure how much different our season would have been without him.

I’m just struggling to interpret why many of our other and previous CBs have been so maligned, yet Martinez and Varane get all their bad games excused away.

You can add the 3-1 Villa disaster to the Brentford City and Liverpool thrashings and he's had a bit of a mare in all of them. Varane escapes a bit of criticism for these thrashing because he didn't play against Brentford and Villa, and was injured early against City.

I've been hugely impressed with Martinez and was wrong to doubt the signing.

However I can't take the "he's the best centre back in the league" and "he's the best centre back in the world" seriously, he's not shown it over a long enough period and he's been far from flawless.

The likes of Arsenal, City, Newcastle, Brighton are significantly outperforming us defensively in just this league and I'm sure their respective forums are lauding their centre backs and don't give our centre backs a look in when discussing who's the best or been the best, we're just very United-centric. Obviously it's a United forum so it's going to have some United bias but you would think he's the only centre back having a decent season if you read this forum. And that's ignoring what's going on in the other top leagues.

 

[Cassidy]

You can tell who has been waiting in the wings to call him out because HE didn’t even play badly today

 

[A-man]

Martinez doesn’t concede goals. The team concedes goals.

Someone claimed we would have conceded twice as many goals without him, but there stats are not supporting that claim. ( we are conceding 1.7 goals per 90 minutes with him on the pitch).
He might be great and the best world football has ever seen etc but it is simply not true that we concede a lot of goals when ever he doesn’t play.

 

[Ekeke]

Someone claimed we would have conceded twice as many goals without him, but there stats are not supporting that claim. ( we are conceding 1.7 goals per 90 minutes with him on the pitch).
He might be great and the best world football has ever seen etc but it is simply not true that we concede a lot of goals when ever he doesn’t play.

I said we'd have twice as many occasions of what happened today. Results getting away from us and shipping plenty of goals.

And no you cannot quantify that because you dont know how players are going to react when you go a goal or two behind. For example Shaw's performance in the 2nd half.

But it is obvious that if you have a CB who is making vital interceptions, clearances and tackles that should otherwise and would normally result in a goal then the team mentality will be tested more often as you get pegged back, or go behind more often and you'd have more days where your team is 2nd best by a mile. Its the result of more pressure.

Theres no stat for it. Its just obvious and requires that someone isnt arguing in bad faith.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Martinez doesn’t concede goals. The team concedes goals.

Come on mate, you're better than that to take the bait. Swedish super fan coming out of the woodwork, all guns blazing after one bad Martinez performance. Literally check their last 10-15 posts in this thread, pretty much all negative/critical take comments and nowhere to be seen in the past month.

The fact they had to post the bit below (bolded), even though no goaded him shows he's got a massive chip on their shoulder for the guy, who displaced his idol Lindelof.

Someone claimed we would have conceded twice as many goals without him, but there stats are not supporting that claim. ( we are conceding 1.7 goals per 90 minutes with him on the pitch).
He might be great and the best world football has ever seen etc but it is simply not true that we concede a lot of goals when ever he doesn’t play.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Someone claimed we would have conceded twice as many goals without him, but there stats are not supporting that claim. ( we are conceding 1.7 goals per 90 minutes with him on the pitch).
He might be great and the best world football has ever seen etc but it is simply not true that we concede a lot of goals when ever he doesn’t play.

Did it occur to you that this might be because he is the best (or, at worst, second best) centre back in our squad, so nailed on to start our most difficult games, while obviously inferior centre backs can keep down their goals per game average by playing almost exclusively against shit teams?

 

[TMDaines]

You can add the 3-1 Villa disaster to the Brentford City and Liverpool thrashings and he's had a bit of a mare in all of them. Varane escapes a bit of criticism for these thrashing because he didn't play against Brentford and Villa, and was injured early against City.

I've been hugely impressed with Martinez and was wrong to doubt the signing.

However I can't take the "he's the best centre back in the league" and "he's the best centre back in the world" seriously, he's not shown it over a long enough period and he's been far from flawless.

The likes of Arsenal, City, Newcastle, Brighton are significantly outperforming us defensively in just this league and I'm sure their respective forums are lauding their centre backs and don't give our centre backs a look in when discussing who's the best or been the best, we're just very United-centric. Obviously it's a United forum so it's going to have some United bias but you would think he's the only centre back having a decent season if you read this forum. And that's ignoring what's going on in the other top leagues.

Yep, that’s where I am more or less.

I think the period he didn’t play much after the World Cup and Shaw played centre back a lot was interesting, culminating in beating City 2-1. I actually think that period of the season was when we looked best defensively and Martinez wasn’t in the team. When he hasn’t played, we haven’t particularly missed him, which is why I downplay his importance somewhat. Shaw is quite clearly ours, and ETH’s, most important defender.

It will be interesting to see who partners Martinez next season, as I suspect we will prioritise getting a new centre back as Varane cannot be relied upon to play so much, and Maguire and Lindelöf seem out of favour.

 

[TMDaines]

Did it occur to you that this might be because he is the best (or, at worst, second best) centre back in our squad, so nailed on to start our most difficult games, while obviously inferior centre backs can keep down their goals per game average by playing almost exclusively against shit teams?

He was dropped for City at home. Varane and Shaw preferred.

 

[11101]

Every time he got done down that side the biggest thing that stood out for me was where the feck is Shaw. He got hung out to dry today by those around him, yet on about 80 minutes he was still trying to play incisive passes through the lines.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He was dropped for City at home. Varane and Shaw preferred.

“Dropped”. Feck me. Google the date of that match and google the date of the World Cup final. FFS.

 

[Irwin99]

Genuinely an unfortunate slip for one of the goals, don't think it was nearly as bad as the other night when he got rinsed by Antonio. Had a good first half i thought.

He's got 5 bookings in the league so is that now a match suspension or have we moved on from that now?

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

How? He was the best in the first half, had that goal saving tackle on Nunez alongwith his passing being as good as usual

I remember just one bad moment against Salah when he slipped and maybe that tackle on Gakpo. How is that a disgrace?

The second half he was dragged out of position a lot. It was the whole team, not just him. It’s just surprising as the standards Case and Licha have set this season are incredibly high.

 

[TMDaines]

“Dropped”. Feck me. Google the date of that match and google the date of the World Cup final. FFS.

I think you are misremembering. He was back from the World Cup for a while by that point. He had already made two sub appearances, then played ninety, and looked a little off it. The manager preferred Varane and Shaw for that game who had looked really good together after the World Cup.

 

[Remember the geese]

I think you are misremembering. He was back from the World Cup for a while by that point. He had already made two sub appearances, then played ninety, and looked a little off it. The manager preferred Varane and Shaw for that game who had looked really good together after the World Cup.

He was always getting his place back. The manager was just easing him back in. He certainly wasn't dropped.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

His bottom level is fecking low isn't it? I do worry that people are overhyping him.

A very common theme for this entire squad.

 

[Andersonson]

He was shite today. Very very shite

 

[TMDaines]

He was always getting his place back. The manager was just easing him back in. He certainly wasn't dropped.

That’s the not definition of “nailed on to start our most difficult games”, is it? Best team in the country came to town and the manager chose to go without him, despite him playing the previous three. We deservedly won that day.

I don’t see how it is particularly controversial to have a discussion about us looking just as good without him in the side this season. I think he’s a good player. I’m just not sure what difference he has made to us defensively.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That’s the not definition of “nailed on to start our most difficult games”, is it? Best team in the country came to town and the manager chose to go without him, despite him playing the previous three. We deservedly won that day.

I don’t see how it is particularly controversial to have a discussion about us looking just as good without him in the side this season. I think he’s a good player. I’m just not sure what difference he has made to us defensively.

Was it not for the World Cup he indeed would have been absolutely nailed on to start that game. In the same way he’s been nailed on to start all our other most difficult fixtures. Because he has been one of our best players all season and one of the best central defenders in the league. How is that even up for debate?! Fecking hell. This place after a defeat is so nuts.

 

[bosnian_red]

That’s the not definition of “nailed on to start our most difficult games”, is it? Best team in the country came to town and the manager chose to go without him, despite him playing the previous three. We deservedly won that day.

I don’t see how it is particularly controversial to have a discussion about us looking just as good without him in the side this season. I think he’s a good player. I’m just not sure what difference he has made to us defensively.

He has made a massive difference to us defensively and we look far better with him than without him. You are using a sample size of what, 2 games, to show that Shaw is as good of a LCB as him? Which is bollocks. Ignoring the fact that doing so also takes Shaw away from LB and puts Malacia on. It's great to have quality depth, but don't kid yourself, Lisandro Martinez is a brilliant CB and we would be a much worse team without him. On and off the ball.

 

[Remember the geese]

That’s the not definition of “nailed on to start our most difficult games”, is it? Best team in the country came to town and the manager chose to go without him, despite him playing the previous three. We deservedly won that day.

I don’t see how it is particularly controversial to have a discussion about us looking just as good without him in the side this season. I think he’s a good player. I’m just not sure what difference he has made to us defensively.

In the three games prior to City, he came on as a sub in the 88th and 76th minute before starting the league cup game against Charlton. The very definition of being 'eased back in'. We are a much better side with him in the team.

 

[TMDaines]

Was it not for the World Cup he indeed would have been absolutely nailed on to start that game. In the same way he’s been nailed on to start all our other most difficult fixture. Because he has been one of our best players all season and one of the best central defenders in the league. How is that even up for debate?! Fecking hell. This place after a defeat is so nuts.

He literally played the previous three games and then was not selected for the big one. He was dropped for Leeds too, despite an enforced rest the following midweek against Barcelona due to suspension.

Do you find it inconceivable already that ETH could choose to go with other centre backs? He clearly sees something in Shaw at centre back in certain matches. I wouldn’t at all be shocked to see him go with Shaw and a partner on Thursday at centre back.

 

[Waynne]

I will not start to second guess any of our players especially Lisandro.

We had a very bad day at the office. We are a team in transition both on and off the field. We have a generational manager in Ten Hag.

Get behind our players and gaffer for the rest of the season. This 7-0 does not define this team and the good work that has been put in by the club this season.

 

[TMDaines]

In the three games prior to City, he came on as a sub in the 88th and 76th minute before starting the league cup game against Charlton. The very definition of being 'eased back in'. We are a much better side with him in the team.

So you think regardless of how Shaw and Martinez performed, the plan was always sub, sub, 90, benched against City to rehabilitate him? Shaw started against City at centre back because the manager had full confidence he was the best man for the job that day.

 

[Oranges038]

Poor today.

Salah had him on toast for that third goal, in truth he should have dragged him down out near the wing when he had rhe chance.

He'll be back stronger the next game.

 

[Remember the geese]

So you think regardless of how Shaw and Martinez performed, the plan was always sub, sub, 90, benched against City to rehabilitate him? Shaw started against City at centre back because the manager had full confidence he was the best man for the job that day.

Yeah, Martinez was always going to be eased back in. Of course ten Hag had confidence in Shaw, otherwise he wouldn't have played him. However, Martinez is a better centre back than Shaw and it benefits the team to have both in the side.

 

[Cassidy]

He was dropped for City at home. Varane and Shaw preferred.

Dropped? You need to put the pipe down

 

[sebsheep]

I suppose it's lucky that Shaw had such a great game today at fullback and then center back so that we could all see the Martínez is the problem.

 

[bosnian_red]

So you think regardless of how Shaw and Martinez performed, the plan was always sub, sub, 90, benched against City to rehabilitate him? Shaw started against City at centre back because the manager had full confidence he was the best man for the job that day.

Nonsense. The plan was if Shaw struggled at CB, rush Martinez back. Shaw did fine at CB, so yes, Ten Hag had full confidence in him as Martinez was being eased back into the swing of things after the World Cup.

There is a 0% chance that Ten Hag genuinely preferred Shaw and Malacia at LCB and LB to Martinez and Shaw at LCB and LB. 0 chance. You are being dramatic if you think otherwise

 

[TMDaines]

Dropped? You need to put the pipe down

What happened for the return Leeds match then? He wasn’t selected there, despite having a forced rest in the midweek against Barca. Again, are you somebody else who finds it inconceivable already that ETH could ever choose to prefer other centre back options?

I find it interesting that so many already have Martinez on quite such a pedestal. I just don’t see it, despite being at pains to say he’s a good signing.

 

[TMDaines]

There is a 0% chance that Ten Hag genuinely preferred Shaw and Malacia at LCB and LB to Martinez and Shaw at LCB and LB. 0 chance. You are being dramatic if you think otherwise

He did the same again a few weeks later against Leeds after a poor defensive display in the first game, despite Martinez not being able to play against Barca in the following match.

What’s so inconceivable about the manager thinking there are alternatives for certain match-ups with particular tactical considerations?

 

[SAFMUTD]

You can tell who has been waiting in the wings to call him out because HE didn’t even play badly today

Part of a defense that allowed 7 goals but he didn't played badly. Sure.

 

[bosnian_red]

He did the same again a few weeks later against Leeds after a poor defensive display in the first game, despite Martinez not being able to play against Barca in the following match.

What’s so inconceivable about the manager thinking there are alternatives for certain match-ups with particular tactical considerations?

Again that one to me was very clearly Ten Hag wanting to give Shaw rhythm at LCB and Malacia rhythm before the Barcelona game. Which is why for the return leg against the same opponent, Martinez started. As he has started in every single game he has actually been match fit for. The only 2 times he hasn't started was literally because 1, he wasn't match fit or had not played in the previous games and it was a big game, so Ten Hag doesn't like throwing you in, and 2, because he wasn't going to play vs Barcelona in midweek so needed others to get rhythm before a big game. It's nonsense to think that Martinez is anything but a key player and one of the first names on the teamsheet for Ten Hag.

 

[Cassidy]

Part of a defense that allowed 7 goals but he didn't played badly. Sure.

He actually didnt.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Again that one to me was very clearly Ten Hag wanting to give Shaw rhythm at LCB and Malacia rhythm before the Barcelona game. Which is why for the return leg against the same opponent, Martinez started. As he has started in every single game he has actually been match fit for. The only 2 times he hasn't started was literally because 1, he wasn't match fit or had not played in the previous games and it was a big game, so Ten Hag doesn't like throwing you in, and 2, because he wasn't going to play vs Barcelona in midweek so needed others to get rhythm before a big game. It's nonsense to think that Martinez is anything but a key player and one of the first names on the teamsheet for Ten Hag.

No way any Utd fan that has watched us all season can be so obtuse.

Has Martinez been poor for a few games this season? Yes. Has he been overrated or excused for some below par performances? Yes. Has he been arguably our best defender, one of our most important players and ETH's first choice? Yes.

Some people double down and choose to go against the wind because they think they're being impartial or independent against popular opinion.

 

[Cassidy]

What happened for the return Leeds match then? He wasn’t selected there, despite having a forced rest in the midweek against Barca. Again, are you somebody else who finds it inconceivable already that ETH could ever choose to prefer other centre back options?

I find it interesting that so many already have Martinez on quite such a pedestal. I just don’t see it, despite being at pains to say he’s a good signing.

A player being eased in after not playing much football for about a month clearly

 

[SAFMUTD]

He actually didnt.

We must have watched different games then, I was seeing the one where we were raped 7-0

 

[TheLord]

I am convinced he's never going to the "top" defender we always craved for. I think his mentality is pretty good, but beyond that his technique is okayish and physique is grossly inadequate for the PL..

 

[ti vu]

Salah beat him twisting and turning for the 2nd Gakpo goal. Nobody was tracking his run. Konate missed a header after getting away from him on a corner.

Other than that and overplaying once to avoid giving away a throw and losing the ball, I thought he was fine and easily our best defender.

Actually in that counter against us Shaw is with Salah. Then he doesnt bother to track him so Lisandro comes across to try and deal with him. Then Shaw doesnt bother to track the Gakpo run inside either. So yeah Salah beat him but the main issue there was Shaw

It's on ETH with his hipster's corner defending man mark assignment. Same thing about having Timber man mark Nunez(!) which cost him last season CL progression despite being the better team.

Weghorst was supposed to station in that very position the ball drop for Konate's header. He got pulled away by a Liverpool player for no good reason. Weghorst is just awful anticipating percentage cross. For Martinez clearance of Nunez sitters the first half around 23th minute, Weghorst messed up a clearance header, and Liverpool retained possession near our box and lead to that chance.

Agree. Martinez is the least bad defenders in this game. He's booked so I think ETH tried to protect him from second yellow and suspension. Not that moving Shaw into LCB as shite as he was in the second half would improve on Martinez.

 

[Real Name]

I am convinced he's never going to the "top" defender we always craved for. I think his mentality is pretty good, but beyond that his technique is okayish and physique is grossly inadequate for the PL..

And there it is. One game like that and this kind of posts pop out.