Couldn't agree more. If he carries on like this then he could be in the conversation where people are saying was he better than the likes of Vidic and co in terms of his defensive capabilities but warrior no doubt. Great signing!
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
Couldn't agree more. If he carries on like this then he could be in the conversation where people are saying was he better than the likes of Vidic and co in terms of his defensive capabilities but warrior no doubt. Great signing!
Thank god Timber turned us down. Vidic is my favorite United player, Licha is working his way up there with his similar style.
Licha is more comfortable on the ball than Vidic which makes me think he could surpass the great man as they both have a very similar defending style. Of course it's still early doors but our future has improved dramatically with his signing. Just wish Varane was 5 years younger to have a carbon copy of Rio/Vidic. Still can get a couple more years out of him so I'm just going to enjoy it while it lasts.
Yeah some of this praise is over the top. Vidic and Rio won multiple league titles and a CL. They were a part of the side that has the clean sheet record (I believe it's still the record for consecutive clean sheets?)
He has some way to go before he gets close to Vidic.
He has some way to go before he gets close to Vidic.
Man Utd 3:1 West Ham
That's an excellent take, mate. Masch was a good CB at Barca. But people would think twice, that he can survive there as CB because Barca just dominated the games.
He absolutely murdered Fred in the celebrations. @GifLord can you get his studs up slide into Fred on here?
Got absolutely done by Antonio which surprised me massively. Thankfully didn’t hurt us but it’s the first time in ages I can recall him making a mistake.
Begs the question as to why ten Hag was in for Timber so much when he quite clearly identified he wanted a left footed centre back.
It helps so much with our build play. That said, very few centre backs can pass a ball like Martinez, so to have him in our back line makes a massive difference.
Antonio totally killed him at that play. It's interesting that's something I remember from this game more than anything. I guess it shows how inusual it is for Lisandro.
If he scored that scissor kick he would have compensated it though
If he scored that scissor kick he would have compensated it though
Antonio totally killed him at that play. It's interesting that's something I remember from this game more than anything. I guess it shows how inusual it is for Lisandro.
If he scored that scissor kick he would have compensated it though
It's the first mistake I've seen him do.
I watched the game live and noticed that when he's competing for a header, he pushes his opponent in the back just before and then wins the header
I don't think its an issue that reflects just on CBs who dont have the conventional physical attributes, but I do believe those issues are exacerbated. Whether thats human bias or plain fact, tough to judge. For example, I think we can both agree that if Mascherano played for Burnley or Atletico or insert other defensive minded team here, he wouldn't be as highly thought of as he is, not because he wouldn't be capable, its just not playing to his strengths. Our very own Rafa is the prototypical CB with pace and height and strength, and was (to me) at the very least, a top 5 defender in the world before his move to us, and we had him looking like he was here for a paycheck and nothing else.
He was owned badly by Antonio, gladly it didn't end up in a goal. Still he's a beast love him.
Should have been sent off for that tackle on Weghorst.
But Ajax was playing progressive football that many top teams were using too.
He's been so good recently it was quite shocking to see him get destroyed by Antonio but I guess he's not perfect.
Is that stat really 'noise proof' though? Look at this post in the Lindelof thread:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/victor-lindelöf-2022-23-performances.471408/page-29#post-30209897
From those stats, you would think he should be comfortably one of our first choice centre backs. I'm assuming the stat you're referring to is something to do with winning the ball in the air or rather getting the first touch right? However, does that take into account what the action of the opponent winning that header actually created? What I getting at is that from actually watching the game, Martinez is twice the player Lindelof is aerially and it's due to intangibles or rather stats that simply do not exist e.g aerials contested that led to an advantageous action to the opponent, aerials contested by the defender in the least advantageous situation, aerials contested that won 'momentum', aerials contested that was of significant importance due to the chance (like the xpgzy or whatever % that we see nowadays) etc etc. There's so many variables that can go further into detail if we really want to examine what 'winning' aerially means.
Now I'm not trying to defend Martinez and excuse statistics because I agree circumstances such as playing in a team with teammates that suit his playing style obviously massively help (as with any other player) but I don't like stats being used to definitively say 'xyz is not good in the air'. It should be more accurate to say 'he's specifically poor in or doesn't win the first aerial ball' as those are two completely separate statements, which can shape a discussion or narrative. Another example is saying one player is a 'good' passer because of their high completion percentage but it means nothing compared to another midfielder, who passes forward and from much more difficult positions. The difference is that we have stats like 'progressive passes', 'distance moved', 'passes in final third' etc, which can further help contextualise a point; they're not perfect representations to judge a player or make a statement but at least there's some variation. With aerials, I don't think there's as many stat instances to give different information.
TLDR: Effectiveness and 'winning' a stat, although related can be two very different things.
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If TImber was his first choice over Martinez then it suggests Timber is going to be a special player.
Coming on as a sub it’s always hard to get up to speed with the game. It took both him and Casemiro a good 10-15 mins to warm up.
I have Herrera levels of love for him.
Oh I agree, I was just expounding upon my original point more using the example you presented.
Licha got spun by Antonio, first time I’ve seen him get done like that. I was shell shocked! Still love my Butcher.
As to your overall point about further point about contextualizing headers, I can see exactly the point you’re trying to make. I was just using a quick reference guide as to give a potential answer to the previous poster’s question, and would be very interested in seeing those kind of statistics if available to the public. However, I brought up the specific stat about his aerial prowess (or lack thereof) to point out that while I don’t think there’s a person among us who wouldn’t be comfortable with Martinez handling a 1v1 aerial duel due to those intangibles I mentioned, the data available to us, whether whether you think it’s flawed or not, shows otherwise, and it could be used a valid (at the time of potentially signing) criticism to oppose said signing. I’m not saying the data available to clubs is that basic, but other than trusting unquantifiable intangibles, I’m pretty sure many remained unconvinced due to that reason. I mean could you imagine Licha succeeding in the Prem if he became a fat cat, as several players have, now that he got his transfer and bumper contract? The point I’m trying to make is it’s harder to take a leap of faith when you’re relying on unquantifiable evidence to cover what his one weakness potentially is.
Fred is now on his long list of the butchered!
Everybody gets done. It’s part and parcel the game. Happens to Varane and Casemeiro too
Three things here:
1) I don't think stats in their essence are flawed as it's supposed to be an objective truth of a measured action. I say supposed because it's still people, who are subjectively interpreting the action e.g what constitutes as a 'duel' or 'contested', although over the course a season it probably averages out. Anyways, I digress, my point is that I think making definitive statements like 'xyz is poor aerially' by using a stat like 'aerials won' is flawed. To make it more obvious and to simplify it, winning an aerial ball doesn't necessarily means someone is good aerially in the context of a football match. Many times we have seen Maguire and Lindelof win balls but almost create a net negative because the header goes straight back to the opposition, go out for a cheap throw in, or it was an easy ball that they chose to header away rather than attempt to keep possession etc. That's as simple an example I can give you. Are they 'aerially strong' in this case because their 'aerials won' are in the high percentages? Or would it be more closer to the truth to say 'they win a lot of first time headers'? Conversely, not winning that many aerials balls in Martinez's case doesn't necessarily mean he is poor aerially.
2) At the time of the signing, I'm pretty sure his stats at Ajax were really good/one of the best? I'm sure that's what was posted on here.
3) Just because a stat doesn't exist (or is available), it doesn't mean something is unquantifiable. Every one of my examples I've made are perfectly quantifiable in the same way with how a 'duel' is measured. This is the danger here as people use stats to support a narrative, which are convincing and a lot of the time can paint a truth but ignore completely that there are many more stats not available, which is why you need to watch actual games to see this.
Btw I don't have any issue with your point about how stats available or not can or rather not help one make up their mind. I know it was bit of a throwaway comment to say 'aerially poor' so I'm not trying to pin anything on you but I think people need to be careful how to interpret them and what it actually means in the game of football.
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Just to clarify as to what I’m deeming unquantifiable in my post, specifically when it comes to aerial situations, is his warrior mentality. The man has exceptional positioning and spacial awareness, but if you take away that dawg in him I doubt he would be as close to successful as he has been. Not to mention the shithousery, the organization, even the newfound enjoyment this season across the entire back 6 to celebrate even the simplest of defensive actions.
Not factoring the skinning by Antonio (happens), he didnt have a great game. Passing was off surprisingly.
The number of people saying "got destroyed by Antonio" goes to show how many people don't play/understand football or the CB position.
Of course he was left for dead by Antonio. He was isolated against a much stronger and quicker player. Martinez is tiny and he's slow. He'd be 'destroyed' by virtually every PL attacker if isolated like that. It doesnt mean he's not a world-class CB.
Part of the skillset of good CBs is not allowing themselves to be isolated like that. However, that becomes hard when the team is not organised and not defending as a unit.
I said time and time again last season, usually in defence of our CBs, that CBs will be beaten by attackers if they end up in one vs one duels with them. That's why we conceded so many last season. No press, non-existant cover in midfield, defenders constantly exposed, isolated, running back towards their own goal and/or plugging gaps in the half-spaces and being dragged out of position.
Too many on here want to judge defenders in isolation when in reality, there's not a truer saying in football than "we defend as a team". Look at van Dijk and Matip...world-beaters behind Liverpool's monster press for 4/5 seasons, all of a sudden, they look all over the place. They've not changed, its the quality of the shape, the press and the defending ahead of them. They're now being exposed.
That doesnt mean we cant form some kind of opinion on the individual qualities of a defender but people should be really careful to consider the entire defensive unit. Good defenders defend well in good teams but you cant shove a good defender in a badly coached, badly organised team and believe an individual can work superhuman miracles
Of course he was left for dead by Antonio. He was isolated against a much stronger and quicker player. Martinez is tiny and he's slow. He'd be 'destroyed' by virtually every PL attacker if isolated like that. It doesnt mean he's not a world-class CB.
Part of the skillset of good CBs is not allowing themselves to be isolated like that. However, that becomes hard when the team is not organised and not defending as a unit.
I said time and time again last season, usually in defence of our CBs, that CBs will be beaten by attackers if they end up in one vs one duels with them. That's why we conceded so many last season. No press, non-existant cover in midfield, defenders constantly exposed, isolated, running back towards their own goal and/or plugging gaps in the half-spaces and being dragged out of position.
Too many on here want to judge defenders in isolation when in reality, there's not a truer saying in football than "we defend as a team". Look at van Dijk and Matip...world-beaters behind Liverpool's monster press for 4/5 seasons, all of a sudden, they look all over the place. They've not changed, its the quality of the shape, the press and the defending ahead of them. They're now being exposed.
That doesnt mean we cant form some kind of opinion on the individual qualities of a defender but people should be really careful to consider the entire defensive unit. Good defenders defend well in good teams but you cant shove a good defender in a badly coached, badly organised team and believe an individual can work superhuman miracles
Very good post must be said.
Good point
I do believe Van Dijk of 3 years ago was more capable of covering up his midfielders mistakes. He's just not the player he was.
I do agree that Van Dijk was perhaps one of the very rare breed of CBs who could face-down an attacker/wide forward in a one vs one and come out on top some of the time, however, that's still a 'last resorts' situation and there's not many who can. I do think he's lost a bit of his 'edge' recently and that is impacting him a little, bit it's mainly the lack of press in front of him. I'd possibly also include Rio Ferdinand, Sergio Ramos and Vincent Kompany in the same bracket, maybe peak Varane. Elite CBs who were aerially/physically dominant but also great one vs one.
At the same time, John Terry couldn't do it and neither could Nemanja Vidic, but both had other significant qualities and both were undoubtedly world-class. But...look what happened when Torres managed to isolate Vidic on occasion...
I am in this camp. Was terrified of having such as small CB in our particular league and did not think we needed another CB, let alone Ajax players, instead of additional CM but he has been excellent. One of my favourite players
Fantastic shot.
Looks like he's kicking the ref's head
Any defender is suspected in that situation though. He is not exactly a fast player, so it looked pretty awful once Antonio got away.
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