I could see him going somewhere else between barca and newells for a season or two (if he left now) can't see him leaving Europe till after the world cup
Lionel Messi
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He is 120% the best CL player of all time. Come on now He has the most goals and the most assists. He has double the goals of anyone in history in the KO stage and he has won 5 CL including a 3 peat. Hell he arguably even has the greatest goal ever scored In the competition
If you want to argue Messi is the greatest of all time then fair enough even though I disagree you have your reason BUT in the CL its a no contest and Messi fans themselves will tell you this.
I have guys on this very forum who I have debated the Ronaldo V Messi Debate who share the same sentiment regarding CL.
The only way I see him leaving Barca is to return to Argentina. He won't move to another team in Europe at this stage in his career. Its Barca or a return to Argentina to retire.
Personally I rather him stay in Europe.
I dont want the Messi and Ronaldo era to end
Personally I rather him stay in Europe.
I dont want the Messi and Ronaldo era to end
I’d like to see him in Italy. May suit him more as it’s a slower pace
He is 120% the best CL player of all time. Come on now He has the most goals and the most assists. He has double the goals of anyone in history in the KO stage and he has won 5 CL including a 3 peat. Hell he arguably even has the greatest goal ever scored In the competition
If you want to argue Messi is the greatest of all time then fair enough even though I disagree you have your reason BUT in the CL its a no contest and Messi fans themselves will tell you this.
I have guys on this very forum who I have debated the Ronaldo V Messi Debate who share the same sentiment regarding CL.
Ronaldo is comfortably the best CL goalscorer of all time and has had the better career in the competition - no question. As far as performances and single campaigns go, Messi reached a higher level even if his team has had some recent extreme lows which taint his reputation in the competition. Ex-players and pundits were saying he was the best player they've ever seen at just 22 during his CL performances against United, Arsenal, Real Madrid et al. For all of Ronaldo's amazing stats, especially in his later years where he really scored a ridiculous amount of goals in the KO rounds, his performances didn't elicit the same awe as Messi's.
Ronaldo's CL career is better appreciated when written down, whereas Messi's is better appreciated when watched.
As for him scoring arguably the best CL goal of time, presumably for the bicycle kick against Juventus, well I have to laugh a little. Considering in the same season Bale scored a near identical one but in the final, I think most would find it hard to say Ronaldo's is better. Speaking of great CL goals, personally I think Messi dribbling from the half-way line in the semi-final vs. Ronaldo's Real Madrid to be more impressive. It's far rarer to see a player dribble like that in a KO game than to see a bicycle kick, as evidenced by Bale scoring one in the final of the same campaign (as well as the likes of Peter Crouch and Mandzukic doing similar).
Lionel, if your reading this, Manchester is too cold for you and Argentinians hate it
Hit the nail on the head there pal.
Ronaldo is like a cyborg - a freak of nature who gives 120% to his body and training to enhance his football capabilities and longevity. For that I applaud him, as from a standalone point - it can't be matched.
Messi however is just the more naturally talented. The things he did with a ball are simply outrageous. Watching him turn it up to 10 makes my jaw drop. I've never really saw the same from any player besides Ronaldinho and fat Ronaldo.
Its more so the technique behind that bicycle kick for me. Bale scored a fabulous one as well but Ronaldo having to run too it and then the technique and air time was just 10/10 for me.
Messi goal vs Madrid was utterly brilliant as well and thats a really good shout too.
Is Diario Gol reliable or they are just another Goal.com.
https://everythingbarca.com/2020/08...g-room-begins-massive-rebellion-lionel-messi/
https://everythingbarca.com/2020/08...g-room-begins-massive-rebellion-lionel-messi/
I don't know how much I buy Messi being this puppet master whether it's in the locker room or with Barcelona's board, maybe his representatives but you'd think it would come from him and he just seems to not have that sort of bold personality, or not much of any personality for that matter.
Saved me the time there.
Yes, CR7 is the top goal scorer of the CL, has a bunch of great performances and his teams have won 1 more CLs than Messi's teams. If you want to give that criteria more weight, then i respect that, as obviously goal scoring is the final and most important product of a football team (other than winning).
However, i like to believe that my criteria is equally as important. Most MOTM performances (probably has twice as much as CR7 on the CL alone) plus much more 10/10 performances than CR7, most of them in legendary KO games such as vs Bayern, vs Madrid, vs Manchester United etc for me make him equally as good on the CL.
If Messi wins one more being a important part of the team, for me he takes it easily.
Speaking of the best CL goals scored, i dont think i have never been as mindblown as when Messi scored that solo goal vs Madrid to bury them down, which btw was in the middle of the biggest most violent rivalry between Barcelona and Madrid in the last few decades. It was just perfect.
Woah whats all that about
Now you refer to technique? What the hell happened to clutch, big moment, big games, decisive, bottling, trophies and all that stuff?
Jesus, the double standards with you guys. Out of those two goals, I prefer Ronaldo's, too, but you absolutely have to prefer Bale's if you stick to the criteria you so happily mention to criticize Messi in this thread.
What?! That has NOTHING to do with this topic.
We are comparing 2 goals...not two players.
What does that have to do with this debate? Both were big moment , big game , decisive , but that has nothing to do with this topic.
It’s like comparing Messi goal vs getafe or vs RM in 2011.
Personally I prefer the getafe goal and it’s one of the 3 greatest goals I have ever seen.
Interesting stats for the Champions League here:
Last 16
Ronaldo: 25 goals, 8 assists.
Messi: 27 goals, 6 assists.
Quarter Finals
Ronaldo: 25 goals, 3 assists.
Messi: 12 goals, 3 assists.
Semifinals
Ronaldo: 13 goals, 2 assists.
Messi: 6 goals, 3 assists.
Finals
Ronaldo: 4 goals, 1 assist.
Messi: 2 goals, 0 assists.
Last 16
Ronaldo: 25 goals, 8 assists.
Messi: 27 goals, 6 assists.
Quarter Finals
Ronaldo: 25 goals, 3 assists.
Messi: 12 goals, 3 assists.
Semifinals
Ronaldo: 13 goals, 2 assists.
Messi: 6 goals, 3 assists.
Finals
Ronaldo: 4 goals, 1 assist.
Messi: 2 goals, 0 assists.
That about sums it up. Messi can just take ahold of games and have more influence unlike anyone I’ve ever seen.
Heres a stat that pretty much nails it. The number of MOTM awards in the last 10 years:
1. Mess - 225
2. Ronaldo - 125
3. Hazard - 93
4. Ibra - 89
5. Neymar - 65
A staggering difference.
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https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=ilZVUyr4yY4 - starting at 7:00.
He is not going to put his sons and wife in that situation. He is never going back.
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I mean... thats ridiculous. At the end of the day its a team sport, so individual performance wont always result directly in trophies, but i dont think an argument can be made for anyone ever having a better football individual career than Messi.
10/10 performances on the CL is another big one. Manchester united x3 times, Liverpool, Real Madrid, City, Bayern Munich, Chelsea and a bunch more
did they play the same number of finals? For some reason I always remember that final against Atlético when Madrid were bailed out by Ramos I think it was last minute. Then somebody else scored for Madrid. Then Ronaldo scores a penalty to pad the score and celebrates as if he’s won it all by himself for them. Whereas Messi was handing penalties to the likes of Neymar. To me of course I loved ronaldo more than Messi when he played for us, but after he left to Madrid if I’m being objective and you give me the choice of which player I would have loved to see play for us hypothetically, I would definitely choose Messi. Likewise in their place in history he edges it for me. Especially when you consider that Messi had the better head to head between the 2 (both in terms of Matchups and also domestic competitions which is a large enough sample to judge both while keeping all the other variables constant). It would be a a bit like Liverpool saying they are the Kings of Europe during that span where we were dominating England and they got into two cl finals and won one. You can’t be a king outside of home when you’re not even one in your own bedroom.
I tend to also agree with this. Him and his wife are extremely settled in the suburbs of Barcelona where they’ve pretty much always lived together throughout their relationship. In the unlikely scenario that he decides to go play elsewhere it might be max for a couple of years somewhere nearby in Europe because I’m not even sure he would have his family join him if he opts to do that. Antonella plays a big role in his life and is a spanish speaker living in a place that speaks Spanish (and Catalan) where his children grew up. The oldest is 8 I think, so to go to a new country where you don’t even speak the language etc when there’s no real pressing to do so, I really don’t think they end up doing that. Perhaps Argentina down the road if things are dubbed to be safe for them at the time, but all in all I think messi stays in Barcelona.
Oh dear, the length the Messi brigade will go to, seriously? Debating his CL record against Ronaldo? 
More MOTM awards and 10/10 performances? Why not judge football liking diving and have judges mark the games.
More MOTM awards and 10/10 performances? Why not judge football liking diving and have judges mark the games.
Oh dear, the length the Messi brigade will go to, seriously? Debating his CL record against Ronaldo?
More MOTM awards and 10/10 performances? Why not judge football liking diving and have judges mark the games.
Yeah, don't get it either. Don't overcomplicate football. Field 10 poachers and you'll score a gazillion goals.
Or we could watch the games like real football fans and not just look at contextless spreadsheets.
Oh dear, the length the Messi brigade will go to, seriously? Debating his CL record against Ronaldo?
More MOTM awards and 10/10 performances? Why not judge football liking diving and have judges mark the games.
Is this a serious comment?
Being the best player on the pitch twice as many games as the second best is not a good criteria to judge a player on?
If you know Cal then you know he is dead serious.
Being the best player on the pitch according to whom?
Some of the Messi brigade try to claim he's been the best player on the pitch during everyone of Barca's recent CL capitualations.
Occasional lurker, decided to give posting a try. This thread is a good place to start for a different take from a Lisbon-based Sporting fan.
Messi supporters in this thread are making concessions that aren't necessary. So Messi being clearly better at playing football "makes it equal" because of better team success and better raw scoring numbers for Cristiano? Since when do team trophies and raw individual scoring numbers have the same weight in judging players than actual quality of play?
That makes no sense. Messi is the best player in Champions League history and it's not even close. He's not the record goalscorer (though he does have the best scoring ratio), but so what? No one has come close to his level of play in this competition. I see no other possible conclusion unless total number of goals is the only thing you care about: Ronaldo has more, but Messi is so far ahead as a playmaker and dribbler the whole conversation should be a non-starter. If goals and # of team trophies are all that matters, that'd make someone like Klose superior to Maradona at World Cup level: double the goals, same number of titles. If we're going with narratives over quality of play, we can arrive to all sorts of absurd conclusions.
I'm yet to see a substantial, not narrative-oriented, argument against Messi being the CL GOAT (or overall GOAT). Don't really care for goalscoring stats, Messi would still be the best player if he was just a good goalscorer instead of GOAT level at it and had say half of his goals at CL level. Individual scoring is very overrated, the goal of the sport is for the team to score the most goals regardless of who scores them; some of the best attacking players of all-time weren't great at scoring themselves but their play generated more goals at team level than some players who can score 30/40+ in a season. Team trophies, which are dependent on 20+ individuals and not just one, are also not a way to determine which individual player is better.
Messi supporters in this thread are making concessions that aren't necessary. So Messi being clearly better at playing football "makes it equal" because of better team success and better raw scoring numbers for Cristiano? Since when do team trophies and raw individual scoring numbers have the same weight in judging players than actual quality of play?
That makes no sense. Messi is the best player in Champions League history and it's not even close. He's not the record goalscorer (though he does have the best scoring ratio), but so what? No one has come close to his level of play in this competition. I see no other possible conclusion unless total number of goals is the only thing you care about: Ronaldo has more, but Messi is so far ahead as a playmaker and dribbler the whole conversation should be a non-starter. If goals and # of team trophies are all that matters, that'd make someone like Klose superior to Maradona at World Cup level: double the goals, same number of titles. If we're going with narratives over quality of play, we can arrive to all sorts of absurd conclusions.
I'm yet to see a substantial, not narrative-oriented, argument against Messi being the CL GOAT (or overall GOAT). Don't really care for goalscoring stats, Messi would still be the best player if he was just a good goalscorer instead of GOAT level at it and had say half of his goals at CL level. Individual scoring is very overrated, the goal of the sport is for the team to score the most goals regardless of who scores them; some of the best attacking players of all-time weren't great at scoring themselves but their play generated more goals at team level than some players who can score 30/40+ in a season. Team trophies, which are dependent on 20+ individuals and not just one, are also not a way to determine which individual player is better.
If football was judged by level of aesthetics, you'd be right.
Messi has failed to deliver in the bigger CL games many many times. In fact, one can make a good argument that he's never won it without playing in the best team in the world.
Surely no one will take your seriously saying something like this? If you meant to say “La Liga”, no one will disagree. But CL? Come on, don’t be ridiculous. It’s not only about goalscoring, he also has less assist, less trophies, and less influential in knockout stages. He is less in nearly everything.
Besides, he only won Barca 3 CL (the other one was won by Ronaldinho/Eto’o, Messi was sitting on bench watching all of the knockout stages). How is he the best ever in CL history and its not even close?
I agree with your second claim, Messi has never won the Champions League without being part of the best team in the world. And this proves what exactly? Titles are a team achievement, they are dependent on multiple players and other factors. Messi was the main driving force in 3 of those 4 but he didn't win them alone. In other words, this is completely irrelevant when discussing who the best player is, Messi could have 0 CL titles and still be the tournament's best ever player if his performance level remained the same.
As for the first claim, it's hard to challenge you on it because it's so vague and unsubstantiated. What do you even mean by "delivering"? Barca have been destroyed in the Champions League by large margins in recent years by teams that completely outplayed them, are those examples of Messi "not delivering"? Against Liverpool last season for example, I don't think anyone reasonable would disagree that Messi had a fantastic performance, scoring twice, setting up a huge amount of chances that his teammates fluffed... does that count as "not delivering" because the team lost? Do pinpoint those matches/ties where Messi's poor performance was the cause of Barcelona's defeat. It seems like you're reducing this to "Team won - delivered", "Team lost - not delivered", an impossible standard according to which pretty much every player ever is a consistent bottler.
I meant Champions League. Since you mentioned less goals and less assists, I assume the player you're suggesting as the CL GOAT is Cristiano Ronaldo.
I don't particularly care for any of those stats. I won't even go into "only won Barca 3 trophies" since that's completely narrative driven, players don't win CL titles, teams do. How high is Gento in your CL GOAT rankings? Goals and assists are at least an individual measure, though a very rudimentary one and one that doesn't even close to capturing the totality of a player's impact on a football match. Still, Messi comes out ahead in both those stats if you adjust for matches played. In terms of raw production, Cristiano rivals or even surpasses Messi in the CL, but there's so much more to a player than that.
Messi has an extraordinary scoring record in the CL, but he's also the best dribbler and playmaker in the history of the competition. He would be the best player in CL history even if his raw production was merely decent/good instead of a complete outlier. Best CL scorer of all-time is a better discussion: Messi has the better scoring rate overall, but Ronaldo has it in the knockout stages and he's arguably the more dangerous scorer in tight matches against elite defenses due to the unprecedented level of threat he poses off the ball and on the air.
Best CL player, however, only becomes a discussion if we go with narratives over performances. Cristiano doesn't have anywhere near the all-around ability to make that a discussion. He's not capable of producing for instance the all-around dominant performances Messi produced in two finals against Manchester United. This would remain the case even if he had 10 CL titles to Messi's 0. If raw production stats and team level trophies are the key factors to determine the best players for you, I guess we're simply too far apart in how we view football for any discussion to be productive.
I believe it's not close because no player's performances are in the same ballpark of consistent (10+ years) excellence as Messi's in this tournament.
The thing that irks me about Messi is that people come out with words like "Messi is football and football is Messi" and "when Messi retires we will all become orphans of football".
To a lot of people, Messi is like a religion.
And looking closer, all the talks about goals/assists and other statistics, all the attempts to imply that being a playmaker is somehow more respectable than being a finisher, are only them trying to set a narrative and get one over Ronaldo fanboys.
What they are actually trying to convey, by saying things like "Messi can do what nobody else can do on the ball", is that occasionally dribbling past 5-6 people and scoring a goal automatically makes you the greatest player and the best at "playing football", and you automatically become an infallible figurehead of the club, and every setback of the club is only because the team failing to get the best of you.
But, in this day and age, the way he plays places a heavy burden on the team as they have to make up his lack of work rate and stamina. His net value to the team should include the effect of this rather significant deficiency, but people are blind to that and are still claiming that he's the player in the world, ignoring the fact that his team is like playing with 10 men down when defending.
He also tries to be a finisher and a playmaker at the same time for both the club and the national team. He seems to alway want the ball at his feet, which is incompatible with the way modern football is played (fast paced, high pressing, having few touches and passing quickly, emphasizing the transition phase, etc.). I struggle to believe that neither Barcelona or Argentina have the personnel or resources to play in a non-Messi-reliant way. Neither team were motivated to change the status quo despite the disappointing results, and the reason behind that is truly worth contemplating.
I mean, Messi himself toppled Ronaldinho by being more effective for the team, not by having a more aesthetically pleasing playing style. When weighing both the positives and negatives to the team, clearly Messi is not the best player in the world nowadays, but people are still trying to claim so just because he can dribble past 5-6 men every now and then, and put up impressive stats against bottom half La Liga teams.
It's actually disturbing that Messi is somehow a holy God like figure to a lot of people when football is a team sport and no individual footballer should be beyond any criticism.
To a lot of people, Messi is like a religion.
And looking closer, all the talks about goals/assists and other statistics, all the attempts to imply that being a playmaker is somehow more respectable than being a finisher, are only them trying to set a narrative and get one over Ronaldo fanboys.
What they are actually trying to convey, by saying things like "Messi can do what nobody else can do on the ball", is that occasionally dribbling past 5-6 people and scoring a goal automatically makes you the greatest player and the best at "playing football", and you automatically become an infallible figurehead of the club, and every setback of the club is only because the team failing to get the best of you.
But, in this day and age, the way he plays places a heavy burden on the team as they have to make up his lack of work rate and stamina. His net value to the team should include the effect of this rather significant deficiency, but people are blind to that and are still claiming that he's the player in the world, ignoring the fact that his team is like playing with 10 men down when defending.
He also tries to be a finisher and a playmaker at the same time for both the club and the national team. He seems to alway want the ball at his feet, which is incompatible with the way modern football is played (fast paced, high pressing, having few touches and passing quickly, emphasizing the transition phase, etc.). I struggle to believe that neither Barcelona or Argentina have the personnel or resources to play in a non-Messi-reliant way. Neither team were motivated to change the status quo despite the disappointing results, and the reason behind that is truly worth contemplating.
I mean, Messi himself toppled Ronaldinho by being more effective for the team, not by having a more aesthetically pleasing playing style. When weighing both the positives and negatives to the team, clearly Messi is not the best player in the world nowadays, but people are still trying to claim so just because he can dribble past 5-6 men every now and then, and put up impressive stats against bottom half La Liga teams.
It's actually disturbing that Messi is somehow a holy God like figure to a lot of people when football is a team sport and no individual footballer should be beyond any criticism.
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The people you're talking about don't exist on this forum though. You've written an essay essentially because a handful of 14 year old Asians post cringeworthy quasi-religious crap under youtube compilations.
Most people on here just simply think Messi, the current ballon d'or holder, is the best player in the world. Most are neutrals and have no vested interest in Messi, other than casually enjoying watching him play. Not even the most fanatic Barcelona fans deny his weaknesses on here, so you're better off posting this under a youtube video where it actually applies.
10/10 performances on who’s metric? You could also argue Ronaldo has had countless 10/10 performances in the CL.
And there’s no debate that he’s been more influential than Messi in that competition.
Or we could watch the games like real football fans and not just look at contextless spreadsheets.
If only!
Messi hasnt had a great CL campaign in years imo. Its not just recently but since the last time they won the thing and even then Neymar and Suarez had better campaigns.
In the champions league it's not debatable Ronaldo is the best player ever in the competition.
In terms of simple stats like goals and assists you could argue that, but given that in many people's view Messi is the best player of all time then it naturally follows that many people will view him as also the best player to ever play in the champions league. Football is not all about stats.
You have a really strong argument to say one player is the best goal scorer of all time in a competition if you just look at the goals scored stats but is the best goal scorer automatically the best player?
He was comfortably the best player in the champions league just last season. Scored 12 goals in 10 games (including 6 goals in 6 KO games) with MOTM displays against Liverpool, Spurs, us, Lyon and PSV.
Also laughable to think Neymar and Saurez were better than Messi in 2015, you realise this was the season he put in some of his best ever performances vs. City and Bayern?
Impressive how wrong one can be in just two sentences.
Cristiano could've replicated his scoring record for another odd seasons and he'd still be behind Messi for me. Watched a summary of his finals against United the other day and it was insane how good he was. Ronaldo never dominated a game like this. Spreadsheets never tell you the whole story.