Lionel Messi

[cyberman]

He was comfortably the best player in the champions league just last season. Scored 12 goals in 10 games (including 6 goals in 6 KO games) with MOTM displays against Liverpool, Spurs, us, Lyon and PSV.

Also laughable to think Neymar and Saurez were better than Messi in 2015, you realise this was the season he put in some of his best ever performances vs. City and Bayern?

Impressive how wrong one can be in just two sentences.

They were better, I think Neymar scored in every knockout game?
Im not saying he had bad campaigns but youre conparing them to Ronaldo here. Look at the list of clubs you just put forward for Messi having a great season now. Seems Barca got thumped by thr first decent side they met in that list..
Even against us at OT he was anonymous ffs

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That about sums it up. Messi can just take ahold of games and have more influence unlike anyone I’ve ever seen.

Heres a stat that pretty much nails it. The number of MOTM awards in the last 10 years:

1. Mess - 225
2. Ronaldo - 125
3. Hazard - 93
4. Ibra - 89
5. Neymar - 65

A staggering difference.

That difference is pretty incredible.

Ronaldo is a wonderful footballer but Messi is the only true footballing genius I've seen. One of those sportsman with whom it's hard to comprehend how he does what he does. And with him, all the usual statistics don't even really do justice to how incredible he's been over the last 13 years.

 

[Schneckerl]

They were better, I think Neymar scored in every knockout game?

Did you even follow the CL back then? Consider the course of the games instead of looking up stats.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Cristiano could've replicated his scoring record for another odd seasons and he'd still be behind Messi for me. Watched a summary of his finals against United the other day and it was insane how good he was. Ronaldo never dominated a game like this. Spreadsheets never tell you the whole story.

Absolutely. Statistics, statistics. Messi was an absolute ordeal in the finals he played against us. Our legendary CBs came out feeling that they had been schooled. Ronaldo has had good finals and bad finals (where he's sometimes scored a 4th goal or tap in). It's a reflection of the two players for me that Ronaldo has one more title (far less in Spain of course), more goals but lesser peformances in those finals. Post the age of 25/26 they actually have been pretty different played. Ronaldo is your ultimate box threat who you want at the end of good wideplat. Mess is the all round attacker, who starts attacks and playmaker from the middle of the park creating chances but also finishing them off.

 

[cyberman]

Did you even follow the CL back then? Consider the course of the games instead of looking up stats.

I did and Neymar was better. He simply was.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

They were better, I think Neymar scored in every knockout game?
Im not saying he had bad campaigns but youre conparing them to Ronaldo here. Look at the list of clubs you just put forward for Messi having a great season now. Seems Barca got thumped by thr first decent side they met in that list..
Even against us at OT he was anonymous ffs

He put in MOTM performances vs. every team he played and that includes the two finalists (plus Lyon are currently semi-finalists).

If you genuinely believe Neymar was better than Messi in 2015 then you should probably stop off at your optician next time you're in town.

 

[Schneckerl]

I did and Neymar was better. He simply was.

Alright then agree to disagree.
While it doesn't make you wrong per se, that's certainly a minority opinion.

 

[Pocho]

Of course he's been great for Argentina very often. Claiming anything else is delusional

He scored more than Maradona and Batistuta, he took a shitty team to a WC final and lost to a greater Germany side 1-0. He's been our best player since 2007.

 

[cyberman]

He put in MOTM performances vs. every team he played and that includes the two finalists (plus Lyon are currently semi-finalists).

If you genuinely believe Neymar was better than Messi in 2015 then you should probably stop off at your optician next time you're in town.

Neymar was better than Messi, yes. Messi has the first leg of Bayern but Neymar went away and scored 2 in the away leg. Scored 3 overall in the PSG game, scored in final.
Naymar was phenomenal. Its not a slight on Messi ffs. Neymar and Suarez were machines that year

 

[MrEleson]

Cristiano could've replicated his scoring record for another odd seasons and he'd still be behind Messi for me. Watched a summary of his finals against United the other day and it was insane how good he was. Ronaldo never dominated a game like this. Spreadsheets never tell you the whole story.

Ronaldo vs Juve away in 2018? Ronaldo vs Atletico 2017? Ronaldo vs Atletico 2012? Those were games he absolutely dominated.

 

[Pocho]

Cristiano has dominated him in the CL year after year, it's not even debatable. I think these messi fanboys here are full of delusion if you think he's the best ever. Not even the best player in World Cup History,(Pele), not the best in Champions League history(Cristiano). The two biggest competitions in Football. He'd be on 3 CL if it weren't for Ronaldinho and Eto'o in 06. He's certainly the Pep Guardiola of players.

Bale, Ramos and Terry says Hi!

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Neymar was better than Messi, yes. Messi has the first leg of Bayern but Neymar went away and scored 2 in the away leg. Scored 3 overall in the PSG game, scored in final.
Naymar was phenomenal. Its not a slight on Messi ffs. Neymar and Suarez were machines that year

Vs. Man City (A) - Messi MOTM
Vs. Man City (H) - Messi MOTM (10/10)
Vs. PSG (A) - Suarez MOTM (Messi rated higher)
Vs. PSG (H) - Neymar MOTM
Vs. Bayern Munich (H) - Messi MOTM (10/10)
Vs. Bayern Munich (A) - Benatia MOTM (Neymar rated higher)
Vs. Juventus (N) - Messi MOTM

So you'll find Neymar had one MOTM award compared to Messi's 4 in the KO rounds, two of which were 10/10 performances. Also worth noting that the game in which Neymar got his MOTM was at home against PSG when they were already 3-1 ahead from the away tie. Messi also got a further 5 MOTM performances in the group stage including another two 10/10 performances, Neymar got 0. So that's 9 vs. 1.

Want to concede that maybe you misremembered a little bit mate?

 

[cyberman]

Vs. Man City (A) - Messi MOTM
Vs. Man City (H) - Messi MOTM (10/10)
Vs. PSG (A) - Suarez MOTM (Messi rated higher)
Vs. PSG (H) - Neymar MOTM
Vs. Bayern Munich (H) - Messi MOTM (10/10)
Vs. Bayern Munich (A) - Benatia MOTM (Neymar rated higher)
Vs. Juventus (N) - Messi MOTM

So you'll find Neymar had one MOTM award compared to Messi's 4 in the KO rounds, two of which were 10/10 performances. Also worth noting that the game in which Neymar got his MOTM was at home against PSG when they were already 3-1 ahead from the away tie. Messi also got a further 5 MOTM performances in the group stage including another two 10/10 performances, Neymar got 0. So that's 9 vs. 1.

Want to concede that maybe you misremembered a little bit mate?

I think youll find a lot of those MOTM are just because hes Messi and Barca played well. Hence a reason why Neymar left in the first place.
All those MOTM after r16? 2 assists. So he isnt even providing the front 2 with the mountain of goals they scored.
Jesus we all watched the games.

 

[mancan92]

In terms of simple stats like goals and assists you could argue that, but given that in many people's view Messi is the best player of all time then it naturally follows that many people will view him as also the best player to ever play in the champions league. Football is not all about stats.

You have a really strong argument to say one player is the best goal scorer of all time in a competition if you just look at the goals scored stats but is the best goal scorer automatically the best player?

We are talking about what they have achieved in a certain competition. It's not even debateable even talking about the clutch moments Ronaldo just has far more than Messi and has performed in the competition at a consistent level higher than Messi for a longer period of time.

Messi can be the best player ever but in this specific competition Ronaldo has just been more consistent.

 

[Pocho]

Vs. Man City (A) - Messi MOTM
Vs. Man City (H) - Messi MOTM (10/10)
Vs. PSG (A) - Suarez MOTM (Messi rated higher)
Vs. PSG (H) - Neymar MOTM
Vs. Bayern Munich (H) - Messi MOTM (10/10)
Vs. Bayern Munich (A) - Benatia MOTM (Neymar rated higher)
Vs. Juventus (N) - Messi MOTM

So you'll find Neymar had one MOTM award compared to Messi's 4 in the KO rounds, two of which were 10/10 performances. Also worth noting that the game in which Neymar got his MOTM was at home against PSG when they were already 3-1 ahead from the away tie. Messi also got a further 5 MOTM performances in the group stage including another two 10/10 performances, Neymar got 0. So that's 9 vs. 1.

Want to concede that maybe you misremembered a little bit mate?

Wait, he insists hahha

 

[balaks]

We are talking about what they have achieved in a certain competition. It's not even debateable even talking about the clutch moments Ronaldo just has far more than Messi and has performed in the competition at a consistent level higher than Messi for a longer period of time.

Messi can be the best player ever but in this specific competition Ronaldo has just been more consistent.

How can you explain Messi having vastly more MOM awards than any other player in the tournaments history then? That suggests that Messi has consistently (more than anybody else by a distance) been the best player on the pitch in matches played in CL.

 

[Zehner]

I think youll find a lot of those MOTM are just because hes Messi and Barca played well. Hence a reason why Neymar left in the first place.
All those MOTM after r16? 2 assists. So he isnt even providing the front 2 with the mountain of goals they scored.
Jesus we all watched the games.

No offense, but all of your objections ultimately come down to "but he's only got x assists/goals". It's not about assists/goals.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

I think youll find a lot of those MOTM are just because hes Messi and Barca played well. Hence a reason why Neymar left in the first place.
All those MOTM after r16? 2 assists. So he isnt even providing the front 2 with the mountain of goals they scored.
Jesus we all watched the games.

It's decided by an algorithm (which is used by football clubs and bookmakers) so you're wrong again I'm afraid. How can you look at the evidence put before you, how Messi had 8 more MOTM performances than Neymar in a 13 game tournament and still think Neymar was better? This isn't something that is arguable or remotely close, it's a landslide.

And yes we did all watch the games and you're the first person I've ever seen say Neymar was better in the CL that season. Hence Messi winning the best player in the CL that season and everyone in universal agreement, except you.

It's actually quite curious to see you continue down this avenue and makes me understand how there are people who genuinely believe the world is flat. I suppose if for some reason believing Neymar was better than Messi in a competition 5 years ago brings you some comfort, then I can't begrudge you, no matter how weird it is.

 

[mancan92]

How can you explain Messi having vastly more MOM awards than any other player in the tournaments history then? That suggests that Messi has consistently (more than anybody else by a distance) been the best player on the pitch in matches played in CL.

I can explain that messi is the center of his team everything Goes through him. He is a completely different system to Ronaldo. If Barcelona have a good game Messi automatically will be the best player because he is the centre of everything. But Ronaldo has been consistently the best player over their careers in the champions league he has more had more clutch moments its just a fact.

But also alot of Messis motm have come in group stage games he hasn't dominated when needed and especially recently its been in nothing games or low risk games as you might say. But in term of influence on the competition Ronaldo has more.

 

[cyberman]

No offense, but all of your objections ultimately come down to "but he's only got x assists/goals". It's not about assists/goals.

No, my point is Neymar was sensational in those games as well. Suarez has a lesser case because he is all about assists and goals.
Messi would need magical powers to not score the goals nor provide Neymar the assists to be better than a player who was phenomenal in open play while scoring great goals time and time again.
Its not a slight on Messi that a player at least performed as well as he did for feck sake.
Look at how Messi has performed in CL since Neymar left...

 

[Cal?]

I'm bored with the Messi brigade again after just a few pages. It's just laughable to suggest he's been the best player ever in the CL.

Have fun worshipping him

 

[GatoLoco]

How can you explain Messi having vastly more MOM awards than any other player in the tournaments history then? That suggests that Messi has consistently (more than anybody else by a distance) been the best player on the pitch in matches played in CL.

What is the tournaments history exactly?

 

[balaks]

What is the tournaments history exactly?

Champions League began in 1992. I'm sure you can use google just as well as I can if you want to read about the history.

 

[GatoLoco]

Champions League began in 1992. I'm sure you can use google just as well as I can if you want to read about the history.

There is really no need for the rude response.

Note that someone had spoken about MOTM awards, but I think it referred to MOTM awards in league competitions. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense that Hazard was ranked third in it.

That's why I was asking about the tournaments history, because I didn't know what tournament you were speaking about. Is there really a rank of MOTM awards in the Champions League? And if there is, could you please show the link so I can see it? I think it is very interesting for the discussion.

 

[MrEleson]

This is probably the only thread on the internet where people are genuinely trying to argue that Messi has been a better CL player than Ronaldo (excluding Barca forums). Very interesting.

 

[balaks]

There is really no need for the rude response.

Note that someone had spoken about MOTM awards, but I think it referred to MOTM awards in league competitions. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense that Hazard was ranked third in it.

That's why I was asking about the tournaments history, because I didn't know what tournament you were speaking about. Is there really a rank of MOTM awards in the Champions League? And if there is, could you please show the link so I can see it? I think it is very interesting for the discussion.

Apologies if I came across as rude. I maybe misunderstood what you were asking - I have to confess that I also maybe didn't read the MOM awards things correctly either as you are right about it being in league competitions. So it turns out I'm an utter moron.

 

[trims]

They were better, I think Neymar scored in every knockout game?
Im not saying he had bad campaigns but youre conparing them to Ronaldo here. Look at the list of clubs you just put forward for Messi having a great season now. Seems Barca got thumped by thr first decent side they met in that list..
Even against us at OT he was anonymous ffs

He did not score in every knockout game.

Firstly, if you are going to solely rate them based on goals/assists then Messi beat Neymar with 10 goals + 5 assists compared to Neymar's 10 goals.

Second, you actually have to watch the game for context.

I think youll find a lot of those MOTM are just because hes Messi and Barca played well. Hence a reason why Neymar left in the first place.
All those MOTM after r16? 2 assists. So he isnt even providing the front 2 with the mountain of goals they scored.
Jesus we all watched the games.

Watch who provided the pre-assists for Neymar's goals against Bayern in Germany, and how Suarez's goal against Juve in the final came about.

 

[Zehner]

This is probably the only thread on the internet where people are genuinely trying to argue that Messi has been a better CL player than Ronaldo (excluding Barca forums). Very interesting.

You know why? Because nobody actually divides a career into "CL performances" and "domestic performances". The only reason that is discussed is because CR7 fans have identified the CL as the one specific area in which CR7s stats actually beat Messi's (CL knockout stage goals). Hence this topic is discussed in here so frequently.

I mean, for a second just visualize what we're currently discussing. Look at how much you have to filter their careers in order to make Cristiano look better.

a) Just look at goals
b) Just look at CL
c) Just look at the KO stage of the CL


Show people a summary of every touch of every game both played in the CL in a row, ask them which summary is more impressive and 90% will say Messi, I guarantee you that. Football is more than goals records.

 

[cyberman]

He did not score in every knockout game.

Firstly, if you are going to solely rate them based on goals/assists then Messi beat Neymar with 10 goals + 5 assists compared to Neymar's 10 goals.

Second, you actually have to watch the game for context.



Watch who provided the pre-assists for Neymar's goals against Bayern in Germany, and how Suarez's goal against Juve in the final came about.

I did watch the games. What in the holy feck is it with people on here telling others to watch games? Is that a go to slam on here?
I did watch them and I thought Neymar had a sensational CL campaign.
All im getting is generalised overviews here. Nothing comibg back but condescending posts about watching games or misrepresenting my posts about basing it on only goals or assists.
Trying to pretend that Neymar was only a goal scorer is so ridiculous its not even worth answering. Thats what people are inferring when talking down his run.
Neymar was fantastic and creative on the ball shocker!
When Barca fails in Europe its Messis team mates. When his team mates step up and actually play like world class players Messi was better, end of.
Messi was great and so was Neymar. Its not an insult.

 

[Zehner]

I did watch the games. What in the holy feck is it with people on here telling others to watch games? Is that a go to slam on here?
I did watch them and I thought Neymar had a sensational CL campaign.
All im getting is generalised overviews here. Nothing comibg back but condescending posts about watching games or misrepresenting my posts about basing it on only goals or assists.
Trying to pretend that Neymar was only a goal scorer is so ridiculous its not even worth answering. Thats what people are inferring when talking down his run.
Neymar was fantastic and creative on the ball shocker!
When Barca fails in Europe its Messis team mates. When his team mates step up and actually play like world class players Messi was better, end of.
Messi was great and so was Neymar. Its not an insult.

Well, your assessment just happens to be very different from the consensus so you have to live with opposition. By the way, I don't think people in here want to belittle Neymar's campaign. He was brillant, no doubt. But Messi was to Neymar what Neymar currently is to Mbappe - the one player he just can't overtake. No matter how brillant he plays, the other almost always goes one better.

I think the situation is very comparable. Mbappe's stats probably look better than Neymar's, too, and Neymar is more established hence the expectations are higher and he gets more criticism. But in the end, if you watch the games, Neymar comes across as the superior player, regardless of the score. There are people who now claim that Mbappe is better, in the same way there used to be people claiming Neymar was better than Messi but the general perception doesn't support that. In the end it's about opinions.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I meant Champions League. Since you mentioned less goals and less assists, I assume the player you're suggesting as the CL GOAT is Cristiano Ronaldo.

I don't particularly care for any of those stats. I won't even go into "only won Barca 3 trophies" since that's completely narrative driven, players don't win CL titles, teams do. How high is Gento in your CL GOAT rankings? Goals and assists are at least an individual measure, though a very rudimentary one and one that doesn't even close to capturing the totality of a player's impact on a football match. Still, Messi comes out ahead in both those stats if you adjust for matches played. In terms of raw production, Cristiano rivals or even surpasses Messi in the CL, but there's so much more to a player than that.

Messi has an extraordinary scoring record in the CL, but he's also the best dribbler and playmaker in the history of the competition. He would be the best player in CL history even if his raw production was merely decent/good instead of a complete outlier. Best CL scorer of all-time is a better discussion: Messi has the better scoring rate overall, but Ronaldo has it in the knockout stages and he's arguably the more dangerous scorer in tight matches against elite defenses due to the unprecedented level of threat he poses off the ball and on the air.

Best CL player, however, only becomes a discussion if we go with narratives over performances. Cristiano doesn't have anywhere near the all-around ability to make that a discussion. He's not capable of producing for instance the all-around dominant performances Messi produced in two finals against Manchester United. This would remain the case even if he had 10 CL titles to Messi's 0. If raw production stats and team level trophies are the key factors to determine the best players for you, I guess we're simply too far apart in how we view football for any discussion to be productive.

I believe it's not close because no player's performances are in the same ballpark of consistent (10+ years) excellence as Messi's in this tournament.

So to you, raw stats such as dribbling and playmaking is more important than goals, assists, impact on winning games and trophies?
Let's just say, I tend to agree Messi is one of the best in the competition, probably among top 2 or 3 ever, but to declare he is "the best ever and its not even close", I think you need far more than that. If I am to rank the best ever in CL, I'd say Ronaldo>Di Stefano>=Messi, this is not just subjective opinions, I think impact on winning games and trophies, plays a very big part too. I mean, how can he claimed to be "the best ever and not even close", when winning less games, less trophies, less goals, less assists and less impact on winning than others? Surely last time I check football is still a competitive game?

 

[Zen]

In the 2015 run - MSN was fluent throughout really, Messi outstanding in both ties vs City, Neymar/Suarez vs PSG with Messi at the heart of a lot, one of the all-time Messi displays vs Bayern in the first leg and they all showed up in the final.

It was a great run, they 100% deserved it, they were the best in every tie, quite comfortably. Possibly one of the finest CL runs I've witnessed in 20 years with their 2011 run, you can't taint either with luck or dodgy refereeing that I can remember.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

I did watch the games. What in the holy feck is it with people on here telling others to watch games? Is that a go to slam on here?
I did watch them and I thought Neymar had a sensational CL campaign.
All im getting is generalised overviews here. Nothing comibg back but condescending posts about watching games or misrepresenting my posts about basing it on only goals or assists.
Trying to pretend that Neymar was only a goal scorer is so ridiculous its not even worth answering. Thats what people are inferring when talking down his run.
Neymar was fantastic and creative on the ball shocker!
When Barca fails in Europe its Messis team mates. When his team mates step up and actually play like world class players Messi was better, end of.
Messi was great and so was Neymar. Its not an insult.

Generalised overviews? I linked you every game in the KO stages and Messi was rated higher for 5 of the 7 games. In the group stages he was rated higher in all 5 games in which both played and by a large margin.

Nobody is denigrating Neymar, he did have a great campaign along with Messi and Suarez - the story of that CL was they were the best attacking trio in the world. Just Messi was better, hence him having 8 more MOTM awards, winning the CL player of the tournament, winning the Ballon d'Or, having iconic moments like putting Boateng on his arse etc.

You've come in here saying that Neymar (and Suarez, lest we forget) were better than Messi in 2015. It's a marginal opinion and you're getting upset that people are disagreeing with you, claiming you're getting nothing back when people have linked you stats and all you've said is Neymar scored in every KO game which isn't even true

Seeing as you're complaining about 'general overviews' - here's some more specific stats for you:
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...rStatistics/Europe-Champions-League-2014-2015

They have the same amount of goals, Messi has 5 more assists, far more key passes, far more successful through balls, over double the amount of successful dribbles. I hate that I have to spoonfeed stats to you for what should be patently obvious if you did watch the games - Neymar was good but Messi was clearly better.

 

[GatoLoco]

You know why? Because nobody actually divides a career into "CL performances" and "domestic performances". The only reason that is discussed is because CR7 fans have identified the CL as the one specific area in which CR7s stats actually beat Messi's (CL knockout stage goals). Hence this topic is discussed in here so frequently.

The reason this is talked about is not because it takes place in the middle of a Messi vs Ronaldo discussion but because Champions League is the football competition involving the biggest amount of talent on a football pitch at club level in the whole world. That's why, no matter if you like it or not, fans will analyze Guardiola's performances in the competition after leaving Barcelona or PSG's form in the tournament since the new owners took over or Juventus luck through it in their whole history, just to mention three examples. The topic has huge relevance by itself.

I mean, for a second just visualize what we're currently discussing. Look at how much you have to filter their careers in order to make Cristiano look better.

a) Just look at goals
b) Just look at CL
c) Just look at the KO stage of the CL

I think that is a huge straw man you are using here. Nobody is forcing you to look just at goals or just one competition, that would be ridiculous. The point has more to do with the fact Ronaldo has been way more decisive for his team in CL, especially from quarters on. It's not a "this is the only thing taking part" kind of argument, but rather a "this is very important thing" one.

Show people a summary of every touch of every game both played in the CL in a row, ask them which summary is more impressive and 90% will say Messi, I guarantee you that. Football is more than goals records.

Touches?

Would those summaries reflect Messi's invisibility in the middle of recent defeats? Or his tendency to run way less than the rest of players?

2016, when walking was still fun:

 

[murali_red]

Is this Messi vs Ronaldo thread?

 

[Zehner]

The point has more to do with the fact Ronaldo has been way more decisive for his team in CL, especially from quarters on. It's not a "this is the only thing taking part" kind of argument, but rather a "this is very important thing" one.

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. The fact is that Ronaldo has scored more goals in CL, especially from quarters on. If he was more decisive is debatable. To me he was not for the same reason Eto'o was not more decisive than Ronaldinho, Henry wasn't more decisive than Zidane and Gerd Müller wasn't more decisive than Franz Beckenbauer. Could go on for days like this.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This is probably the only thread on the internet where people are genuinely trying to argue that Messi has been a better CL player than Ronaldo (excluding Barca forums). Very interesting.

This is the only forum (due to United bias) other than Madrid or Portugal forums where its even close between the two. And still Messi came out on top on. United forum. Says it all really.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

So to you, raw stats such as dribbling and playmaking is more important than goals, assists, impact on winning games and trophies?
Let's just say, I tend to agree Messi is one of the best in the competition, probably among top 2 or 3 ever, but to declare he is "the best ever and its not even close", I think you need far more than that. If I am to rank the best ever in CL, I'd say Ronaldo>Di Stefano>=Messi, this is not just subjective opinions, I think impact on winning games and trophies, plays a very big part too. I mean, how can he claimed to be "the best ever and not even close", when winning less games, less trophies, less goals, less assists and less impact on winning than others? Surely last time I check football is still a competitive game?

Impact on winning games is all that matters to me, no matter if that impact comes in the form of goals, assists or other contributions. We just have a different definition of impact I guess, I don't use the final result to attribute impact to players of the winning team or just goal/assist count to determine impact. Messi has more impact than Cristiano on a football pitch, league, CL, whatever tournament, he just has far more to his game. The only area where there's room for comparison is as scorers, every other area of the game Messi is just on a completely different level, this is not some sort of close comparison.

I don't think there's any necessary correlation between scoring more goals/more assists and being the better player. Even if you think there is, why would you not adjust those numbers to matches played anyway? Messi actually has more goals and assists per game (by a very small margin) than Ronaldo in the CL, Ronaldo is ahead in terms of total numbers because he played more matches. Then again, there's so much more to a player than just these raw numbers. Might as well stop discussing players if we're just going to rank them by number of goals/assists/trophies, we can find all that information easily, no need to discuss anything.

I'm yet to see a real argument for Ronaldo (or any other player) over Messi in the CL. So far it's all based on narrative; more total number of goals and assists (at a worse rate)? If we extend this logic, Immobile is the best player in European leagues this season and Klose is twice as good in the World Cup as Maradona. More team trophies? Well then, where's Gento in your GOAT rankings with his record 6 trophies? How high is Dani Alves (the player with most trophies in history) or Ryan Giggs in your overall GOAT rankings? The more we extend the logic being used to argue Messi isn't the CL GOAT, the more it becomes evident these rudimentary metrics don't account for the totality of a player's impact at all. Yes, Messi having more skill (scoring, playmaking, dribbling, ball control, etc...) than his peers is more important than trophy/stat count devoid of all context.

 

[GatoLoco]

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. The fact is that Ronaldo has scored more goals in CL, especially from quarters on.

And what did Messi do to compensate Ronaldo scoring more than twice the goals from quarters on and be more decisive than the Portuguese more consistently?

If he was more decisive is debatable. To me he was not for the same reason Eto'o was not more decisive than Ronaldinho, Henry wasn't more decisive than Zidane and Gerd Müller wasn't more decisive than Franz Beckenbauer. Could go on for days like this.

That looks like a false analogy fallacy to me

 

[BigDunc9]

What the best role for now in a team that could go on to win the Champions league ? A role similar to Hazard's in Conte's 532 or something like what Aguero does for this City team ?