Lionel Messi
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Read the full conversations then you'll struggle a lot less. I'm usually responding to rubbish.
Anyone also a bit annoyed how many people downplay Messi's World Cup performances? Obviously he wasn't anywhere near his physical peak, but too many people make it sound like he had an average world cup and it was kinda prove that he can't do it without his Barca teammates or nonsense like that. He scored half of Argentina's goals while playing as a number 10, created a ton of chances which his high profile teammates wasted regularly with ridiculous finishing (Di Maria was probably the biggest disappointment of the tournament after his excellent performances for Real before he got injured, Aguero was half-fit and completely useless when he played, as was Higuain with the exception of the goal against Belgium). I've now read several times that Mascherano was Argentina's best player, which makes no sense. He had his standout performance in the ultra defensive semifinal against the Netherlands and was very good in the final, no doubt, but overall? Certainly not. It's like saying Schweinsteiger was Germany's best player, he wasn't, doesn't matter how big a legend he's now for that final performance.
That Argentina side wasn't anything special overall, if you look at the performances of the players and not at the names on the pitch. But I even read a few times that's Messi's fault as well, because he's supposed to make his teammates perform at their best level. I'd understand it if he occupied the space where others prefered to play in, but he actually was really selfless, played very deep most of the time and served the strikers and wingers chances on a silver platter, but they simply wasted them. How's that his fault? It was a solid side, with a core of Garay who played really well in defense, Mascherano having a great tournament in defensive midfield and Messi being left alone in basically everything that happened in the opponent's half.
I get it, many hoped for a Maradona-esque World Cup (and I'm fecking glad it didn't happen). But it's also obvious that we saw an all time great player nowhere near fully fit playing on an incredibly high level, that few others could reach, even if they're fit. Shouldn't he deserve praise for that?
Should he have won the Golden Ball? Maybe not. While his influence in key moments was really really good, his fitness issues, whatever the reasons were, meant he wasn't the consistent threat throughout games, he can be. But the outcry about it is much more ridiculous than the fact that he actually won it. Sure, you could make a case for James or Robben or give it to Neuer or Müller for winning, but the latter rarely happened (Schillaci, Ronaldo, Kahn, Zidane, Forlan didn't win the World Cup either, when they won the Golden Ball, only 3 out of the 9 times since its existence it went to a winner) and the former two weren't really any better than Messi up until the quarterfinals. James then went out without doing a lot and Robben was just as invisible as Messi in the semifinal they played against each other. Robben scored his 3 goals in the first 2 games of the group stages and while he appeared to be a constant threat in the knockout stages on the counter, there wasn't that much end product to it (with the exception of the dive of course).
Now don't get me wrong, all of those guys played an exceptional tournament and statistics shouldn't be too important in judging players. It's just mind-boggling how much criticism Messi gets for still being as good as all the others and being highly influential into a team reaching the final and narrowly losing it in extra-time. Never before has a high profile player with an obviously great tournament faced that much criticism. It's just sad.
Excellent post. I was probably a bit overly harsh on him at the time since I didn't feel he deserved to win the award for best player, although I definitely agree he had a good tournament overall, even if he wasn't at his very best.
Messi waa great in the group stages and good in the knockouts but I don't think he was in any way exceptional. It's a fair point that that's true of practically every one of the big names in the tournament but I'm not sure. The all-round contribution to the team that Muller offered in the France game for example, did we see anything of the sort from Messi? In other words when they didn't shine individually in the knockouts did they contribute the same to the team overall? I thought Muller did a lot more in that sense. Completely agree about Robben though.
In any case it is true that some of the most celebrated World Cup performances only really consisted of said player turning it on in a big way in just half of the tournament - e.g. Baggio in '94. I suppose the difference here is he turned it on in the quarters and semis in the same way Mascherano did, and they obviously count for more in terms of boosting the overall perceptions.
In any case it is true that some of the most celebrated World Cup performances only really consisted of said player turning it on in a big way in just half of the tournament - e.g. Baggio in '94. I suppose the difference here is he turned it on in the quarters and semis in the same way Mascherano did, and they obviously count for more in terms of boosting the overall perceptions.
Argentina wouldn't have left the group without Messi. I'm not sure you could say that with Muller and Germany.
The downplaying is clearly a reaction to the Golden Ball award which wasn't really merited. And that's going to be even worse in the shithouses that are these Messi and Ronaldo threads in the football forum.Anyone also a bit annoyed how many people downplay Messi's World Cup performances? Obviously he wasn't anywhere near his physical peak, but too many people make it sound like he had an average world cup and it was kinda prove that he can't do it without his Barca teammates or nonsense like that. He scored half of Argentina's goals while playing as a number 10, created a ton of chances which his high profile teammates wasted regularly with ridiculous finishing (Di Maria was probably the biggest disappointment of the tournament after his excellent performances for Real before he got injured, Aguero was half-fit and completely useless when he played, as was Higuain with the exception of the goal against Belgium). I've now read several times that Mascherano was Argentina's best player, which makes no sense. He had his standout performance in the ultra defensive semifinal against the Netherlands and was very good in the final, no doubt, but overall? Certainly not. It's like saying Schweinsteiger was Germany's best player, he wasn't, doesn't matter how big a legend he's now for that final performance.
That Argentina side wasn't anything special overall, if you look at the performances of the players and not at the names on the pitch. But I even read a few times that's Messi's fault as well, because he's supposed to make his teammates perform at their best level. I'd understand it if he occupied the space where others prefered to play in, but he actually was really selfless, played very deep most of the time and served the strikers and wingers chances on a silver platter, but they simply wasted them. How's that his fault? It was a solid side, with a core of Garay who played really well in defense, Mascherano having a great tournament in defensive midfield and Messi being left alone in basically everything that happened in the opponent's half.
I get it, many hoped for a Maradona-esque World Cup (and I'm fecking glad it didn't happen
Should he have won the Golden Ball? Maybe not. While his influence in key moments was really really good, his fitness issues, whatever the reasons were, meant he wasn't the consistent threat throughout games, he can be. But the outcry about it is much more ridiculous than the fact that he actually won it. Sure, you could make a case for James or Robben or give it to Neuer or Müller for winning, but the latter rarely happened (Schillaci, Ronaldo, Kahn, Zidane, Forlan didn't win the World Cup either, when they won the Golden Ball, only 3 out of the 9 times since its existence it went to a winner) and the former two weren't really any better than Messi up until the quarterfinals. James then went out without doing a lot and Robben was just as invisible as Messi in the semifinal they played against each other. Robben scored his 3 goals in the first 2 games of the group stages and while he appeared to be a constant threat in the knockout stages on the counter, there wasn't that much end product to it (with the exception of the dive of course).
Now don't get me wrong, all of those guys played an exceptional tournament and statistics shouldn't be too important in judging players. It's just mind-boggling how much criticism Messi gets for still being as good as all the others and being highly influential into a team reaching the final and narrowly losing it in extra-time. Never before has a high profile player with an obviously great tournament faced that much criticism. It's just sad.
As for Messi's World Cup, it was decent-to-good. After the second round, I thought it was shaping to be a talismanic Baggio '94 effort where he made a number of key interventions without doing much in general play. In the rest of the knockout stages, he did very little so it clearly wasn't on that level. He still had some good moments and he'd probably be on the fringes of a tournament XI, but the Golden Ball was a huge stretch and generated a lot of reaction that served to underplay Messi's tournament.
He's been the best player in the world for years and by now he's pretty much guaranteed to go down as one of the absolute greats in history even if he never kicks a ball again (well, if that happens he's actually even more guaranteed to go down as such) - so having sky high expectations for a World Cup he can realistically end up winning is hardly surprising, much less unfair.
By the standards he has created himself by being so bloody brilliant, he was a disappointment. It's as simple as that and I fail to see how this is an unreasonable take on it, to be honest.
By the standards he has created himself by being so bloody brilliant, he was a disappointment. It's as simple as that and I fail to see how this is an unreasonable take on it, to be honest.
Yep. It's all about numbers it seems, without paying much attention to anything else. Some will argue, football is all about scoring more goals then your opponent, after all.
I prefer to look at much more though. Hence I'm such a huge Ronaldinho fanboi (I know you are too!
). He'd NEVER get the numbers that these 2 are getting. Hell, he'd probably struggle to get half their numbers. Yet, in his prime, he's 1 of my all time favorites (Shame it was too short). But yeah, he brought that joy to ones face when watching him. Something I love about Messi too. Dropping deep, shrugging the shoulder and leaving 3-4 players in his wake.Only, Ronaldinho had a bit more variety in his locker
He'll go down as one of the greats, alright. Just behind Ronaldo.
That wasn't really what I was talking about though. There's a lot more criticism thrown at him than just 'not hitting the standards he set for himself'.
Sure. If people go beyond that, they go too far. He made the final, scored important goals, wasn't bad at all.
It's just that "not bad at all" isn't really what you're after when it comes to a player like that, in a setting like that.
Wow, I've just noticed he has 8 goals in 6 games in the Champions League. Whilst ******* is looking to break the La Liga record, could it be possible that Messi breaks the CL one at the same time? There are seven more maximum games to be played, so if he scores a goal in each of those games and Barca reaches the final, then it's entirely possible.
I believe that in Pep's Barca, this would have been possible. However, this team is 3rd favourite behind Bayern and Real to win the competition, so unfortunately I don't think Messi will reach this record. I do hope he gives it a good go though, all the more entertainment for us spectators.
I believe that in Pep's Barca, this would have been possible. However, this team is 3rd favourite behind Bayern and Real to win the competition, so unfortunately I don't think Messi will reach this record. I do hope he gives it a good go though, all the more entertainment for us spectators.
Ronaldo had 9 at this stage last season. It's not beyond him, but Barcelona are in such a sorry state I doubt he'll even surpass his own record of 14.
I wouldn't say they are in a sorry state; they are 5 behind Madrid with a game in hand, and they topped their group with only one loss to PSG away with a healthy GD. They just aren't in the same destructive mode as Bayern or Real, which works against him to play in every game possible ie. reach the final. I am making a prediction of 12 goals, depending of course on who they draw in the knockout rounds.
no chanceHe was disappointing by his standards. By mortal standards, he was one of the better players at a world cup that lacked standout performers. And was the best attacking player in the final.
He was one of several worthy candidates for the award. What is most unusual about that is that he wasn't running away with as per usual.
He was one of several worthy candidates for the award. What is most unusual about that is that he wasn't running away with as per usual.
Exaclty. People have forgotten to appreciate what causes a goal in these silly debates. It's often the combination of a lot of good play by many different players foe the goal and even throughout the game. There's a reason ronaldhino was better than Henry and it wasn't goals. There's a reason zidane was the best and it wasn't goals.Yep. It's all about numbers it seems, without paying much attention to anything else. Some will argue, football is all about scoring more goals then your opponent, after all.
I prefer to look at much more though. Hence I'm such a huge Ronaldinho fanboi (I know you are too!
Only, Ronaldinho had a bit more variety in his locker
By their standards they are. One injury to Messi and their season goes tits up. No midfield and an extremely shakey defence. They got found out big time against Real Madrid, lucky not to be on the recieving end of a possible 8-1 hammering.
We should stop agreeing on so much amol! Bromance!
He scored another 2 goals with his right foot today, both nice too. And surprisingly he's now scored more with his right foot than with his left this season. Which is pretty crazy.
covered my losses from last week. Two well taken goals.Yep, 11 right foot, 10 left foot, 2 head (23 goals in all comps).
Something stupid like 8 of his last 9 are right footed too. Might not be exactly right but it's close.
He's playing with his opposite now for a laugh.
Next season, he'll turn into a heading machine and Barca will bombard him with crosses.
Moyes to Barca.
He might be scoring with right-foot a lot, but I am sure he can't control the ball same way he did with his left foot. That control to take the ball down was ridiculous.
Guardian video on him:
The man is a God. Only Ronaldo Phenomenon is comparable in my lifetime. Never in a million years am I having that Cristiano is better, personally. Credit to his goalscoring exploits, as it is this that has even made it a discussion in my opinion, otherwise it would be black and white. Messi puts up similar numbers without adopting an 'I must score in every game and beat every record, so I will always shoot' style. He just plays his natural game, and puts up ridiculous numbers because he is that fecking good.
The best thing Ronaldo could do was to turn the debate into a goalscoring one, which he has successfully done in recent years. Now, the best seems to be judged on who scores the most or whose team wins the League or CL.
The best thing Ronaldo could do was to turn the debate into a goalscoring one, which he has successfully done in recent years. Now, the best seems to be judged on who scores the most or whose team wins the League or CL.
They've got this season's stats up for Barcelona and they basically confirm what a lot of us have been feeling. He's given up moving around a lot, 8km/game now, but that when he moves he's got his speed back (the fastest top speed of any of the Barca players) and the stat that really matters, he's either scoring or assisting the first goal in 75% of Barca's games.
Personally I think he's getting back to his best, albeit in a new role (that maybe acknowledges some physical weaknesses?). We wait and see how it pans out, but it could be a really interesting transformation.
Personally I think he's getting back to his best, albeit in a new role (that maybe acknowledges some physical weaknesses?). We wait and see how it pans out, but it could be a really interesting transformation.
He needs to start scoring penalties, not a single penalty this season in 22 games. That's very weird. And need stop stop hitting the post. Already 8 times this season, and 12 times in 2014.
He's reaching his ridiculous peak levels once again. I watched him against Cordoba and he was a joy to watch. You see that familiar pace and agility of his, taking the ball past countless players and entering the box with such skill like no other. He has a right foot finish this season too.
If Ronaldo has improved his general play this season, all Messi needs to do is to come back to full fitness and have a right foot and he will eclipse him once again. The man's a god.
If Ronaldo has improved his general play this season, all Messi needs to do is to come back to full fitness and have a right foot and he will eclipse him once again. The man's a god.
WowZer!
I love their reactions.
"Not goal"!
They missed a trick not having Roberto Mancini there saying "was goal" when he scored.- Status