Lionel Messi

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amolbhatia100 said:
As I've stated in my post, it's not like he's not performing in big games anymore. He still is. It's just that there are big games now where he can get bypassed, which was never the case with messi. It was almost impossible to do that before. If you stopped him, he would have beaten you 10 times and you'd have nicked the ball off his foot with a last ditch tackle. It would be an ordeal.
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It's a huge thing for his team though. Messi used to be able to win BIG games nearly on his own (not literally of course but he was capable of being as close to a one man show as there was). I don't even see the effort in some of these games now. When he was a teenager and in his early twenties he was a live wire too. Think about his performance at old trafford as a 19 year old, he near enough took United on by himself, constantly driving at their defence looking to make things happen. I don't think he'd ever do that now, if that was this season he'd play at a walking pace and knock the ball around the midfield instead.

I get that because of his freakish natural ability he'll always be a threat and he'll always do 'something'. But in these bigger games he's starting to fade where better quality opposition are containing him better.

I do feel a tiny bit sorry for him too with the injuries and the off field problems. He's getting a lot of flack now where Xavi and Iniesta have escaped the blame completely, even though they've both been sub-par for a couple of years now and Messi's been bailing them out a hell of a lot.

I remember Graham Hunter suggesting some within Barcelona felt bringing him injured against PSG a while back may have played a part in all this. He described it as being disgraceful management of the player. In saying that, that for me is one of Messi's most iconic moments, just to see a team sitting comfortably, then collectively shit their pants and fall apart at the sight of one half fit player coming off the bench.
 
Lots of OTT posts re his performance on Saturday, but you could put Messi from 2010/11 into that Barcelona side and he'd still fail to influence the game.

Real smothered them. Their midfield absoloutely dominated Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets - once upon a time that was unthinkable. Slow and ponderous when they did get it too, even Rakitic was making mistakes with the most basic passes when he came on.

Should have been a real eye opener for them, yet they won't care. IMO, Messi needs to leave that side ASAP, they're far too pedestrian these days to get the best out of their front line. He's still only 27 years old, he'd flourish in a counter attacking side.

Roman, get your wallet out.
 
TheShedEnd said:
Lots of OTT posts re his performance on Saturday, but you could put Messi from 2010/11 into that Barcelona side and he'd still fail to influence the game.

Real smothered them. Their midfield absoloutely dominated Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets - once upon a time that was unthinkable. Slow and ponderous when they did get it too, even Rakitic was making mistakes with the most basic passes when he came on.

Should have been a real eye opener for them, yet they won't care. IMO, Messi needs to leave that side ASAP, they're far too pedestrian these days to get the best out of their front line. He's still only 27 years old, he'd flourish in a counter attacking side.

Roman, get your wallet out.
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No chance.

Also, Barca were as bad as people are making it out to be. At least not in the first half which was even.
 
TheShedEnd said:
Lots of OTT posts re his performance on Saturday, but you could put Messi from 2010/11 into that Barcelona side and he'd still fail to influence the game.

Real smothered them. Their midfield absoloutely dominated Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets - once upon a time that was unthinkable. Slow and ponderous when they did get it too, even Rakitic was making mistakes with the most basic passes when he came on.

Should have been a real eye opener for them, yet they won't care. IMO, Messi needs to leave that side ASAP, they're far too pedestrian these days to get the best out of their front line. He's still only 27 years old, he'd flourish in a counter attacking side.

Roman, get your wallet out.
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Completely disagree. That Messi could have taken 4 or 5 Madrid players out the game and created or scored a goal out of nothing.
 
It seems to me like he's tired of football, doesn't enjoy the game anymore and this is visible in the past few seasons. Rumours in Argentina were that he was ready to retire if he would have won the world cup, it seems like he's mind is in another place.
 
Snake Plissken said:
Completely disagree. That Messi could have taken 4 or 5 Madrid players out the game and created or scored a goal out of nothing.
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I don't think he would have, not with how shit the rest of the team was. Messi had games even back then when he was quiet, though no way near to the extent he's currently been over the last 12 months (injures aside).

He normally sticks away chances like he got in the first half, but the second half was shambolic. Only Mascherano looked like he actually gave a toss, and he's still being played out of position.

The transition from defence to attack was just far too slow and ponderous, the moment Messi got it he had the entire Madrid midfield and defence in front of him. Individually their big players didn't perform, but if I were a Barcelona fan i'd be very worried about the team performance.
 
Phil Duck said:
It seems to me like he's tired of football, doesn't enjoy the game anymore and this is visible in the past few seasons. Rumours in Argentina were that he was ready to retire if he would have won the world cup, it seems like he's mind is in another place.
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I think he just needs a new challenge, I wouldn't mind him at Old Trafford.
 
He'd benefit hugely from a move imo. Imagine him in the Madrid team, loads of one on ones with defenders. At Barca he's stuck coming back to the midfield and playing in front of 10, with slow predictable build up.
 
Snake Plissken said:
He'd benefit hugely from a move imo. Imagine him in the Madrid team, loads of one on ones with defenders. At Barca he's stuck coming back to the midfield and playing in front of 10, with slow predictable build up.
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Trizy said:
I think he just needs a new challenge, I wouldn't mind him at Old Trafford.
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i have to agree, Barelona is a dead end, he needs some fresh air and a new start, different chalenges, new languages,

ok, ill say it, he would love playing for manchester united
 
Marcosdeto said:
i have to agree, Barelona is a dead end, he needs some fresh air and a new start, different chalenges, new languages,

ok, ill say it, he would love playing for manchester united
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Who's the biggest non La Liga club in south America or for Spainish people, United? The fee would be outrageous but I guess he'd bring in loads of sponsors :drool:
 
amolbhatia100 said:
As has been mentioned again and again, he scored a hat trick in the Classico in march towards the end of last season.
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Two of them were penalties and his best work came after Ramos got sent off, which is why it doesn't get as much of a mention as the disappointing games from the tail end of last season. The fact is, that the bar is set so high for him now, that people look on mere MOTM performances (like some of the WC games) as failure.

However, just to add another piece to the puzzle, he apparently needed injections in his ankle on Thursday to play Madrid last Saturday. Barcelona have been quick to say he'll be 100% for the Celta next week. I do think his game's changing: his fans say he's becoming a Di Stefano or a Cruyff, a creator/leader first, goalscorer second and that with Suarez and Neymar ahead of him it should be devastating. I guess time will tell.
 
I can't remember the last time I watched Barca, how much of this stuff about Messi declining is either crazy exaggeration or people taking the piss?
 
Rado_N said:
I can't remember the last time I watched Barca, how much of this stuff about Messi declining is either crazy exaggeration or people taking the piss?
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He honestly looked less bothered going by his body language and he set the standards for scoring more goals than appearances per season so the fact that he's been on less than a 1 ratio has people questioning him funnily enough.
 
Rado_N said:
I can't remember the last time I watched Barca, how much of this stuff about Messi declining is either crazy exaggeration or people taking the piss?
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Depends what you think is more important, the Clásico or the season as a whole. He was poor against Real Madrid (and Málaga) this season but otherwise has started brilliantly.
 
It's incredibly hard for anyone to maintain such a high top level for so long. Messi has probably peaked, but so what. He was one of the best to ever of played the game at his prime.
 
Rado_N said:
I can't remember the last time I watched Barca, how much of this stuff about Messi declining is either crazy exaggeration or people taking the piss?
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I think Marcos is getting a bit overly defensive here because the core criticisms are valid - he's not the player he used to be, he's physically waning and he has to adapt his game to remain at the very top. That said I agree with Marcos in that the thing some of these critics are failing to mention is the fact that he is adapting, and the early signs are he's adapting pretty damn well. He's become Barcelona's one true playmaker and is looking more creative than ever before. At this rate he'll be setting a new record for assists to go along with his goalscoring records. He's still scoring goals for fun as well, obviously. So it's not so bad...
 
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jojojo said:
Two of them were penalties and his best work came after Ramos got sent off, which is why it doesn't get as much of a mention as the disappointing games from the tail end of last season. The fact is, that the bar is set so high for him now, that people look on mere MOTM performances (like some of the WC games) as failure.

However, just to add another piece to the puzzle, he apparently needed injections in his ankle on Thursday to play Madrid last Saturday. Barcelona have been quick to say he'll be 100% for the Celta next week. I do think his game's changing: his fans say he's becoming a Di Stefano or a Cruyff, a creator/leader first, goalscorer second and that with Suarez and Neymar ahead of him it should be devastating. I guess time will tell.
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It's actually the reverse. Before the 20-minute mark he'd already put Neymar through on goal twice (one shot on target, one over the bar), assisted Iniesta for the 1-0 and fluffed his 1v1 finish after making an excellent run to break RM's offside trap. Right before HT he then single-handedly got the equaliser out of thin air, dribbling through a bodycheck from Ramos to again play in Neymar who was slow to react and got the ball stolen off him by Carvajal straight into an anticipating Messi's path for 2-2. Then 2nd half he made the DF-splitting pass to put Neymar through once more, which led to the penalty and Ramos sending off. Aside from expertly putting that and the next penalty into the net, he played a decent ball for Alexis to have a shot somewhere around the 90th minute mark. He basically did nothing of note in open play after the sending off.

Re: decline, it's clear as daylight that he isn't either a) the complete "attacking third" player he was in his 2008-11 peak or b) the ruthless killing machine of 2011-13. The role change shouldn't be a problem per se, especially when you consider who he has in front/next to him as you mention, what will be a bigger problem is Barça's current MF issues... the lack of an orchestrator who can cut it in high-intensity games and this suicidal template that Luis Enrique is playing where the entire onus of chance creation is shifted onto the FW line instead of the MF by having the latter (when it's Iniesta and Rakitic) move into wide positions leaving too much distance for them to have any sort of combination game/fluidity.

The crux is this: if Xavi plays they'll get into trouble defensively when the top teams have the ball, if Xavi doesn't play the responsibility falls on Messi to come pick up the ball in front of opp. MF instead of receiving it behind them, meaning he'll have to work twice as hard to get the ball into the danger areas -- against the majority of teams that won't be a problem, but against the top? Messi and Barça's scoring threat as a whole would go down dramatically, especially with the post-PSG-injury version of Messi who is having enough trouble as it is with his finishing.

It's here where the limitations of the Iniesta's, (Fàbregas') and Rakitic's are exposed IMO. None of them can do what Xavi does, and definitely not consistently. Busquets has some of the attributes, but he's not mobile enough (anymore). In fact I'm struggling to think of any current player who would perform in that role...
 
Brwned said:
I think Marcos is getting a bit overly defensive here because the core criticisms are valid - he's not the player he used to be, he's physically waning and he has to adapt his game to remain at the very top. That said I agree with Marcos in that the thing some of these critics are failing to mention is the fact that he is adapting, and the early signs are he's adapting pretty damn well. He's become Barcelona's one true playmaker and is looking more creative than ever before. At this rate he'll be setting a new record for assists to go along with his goalscoring records. He's still scoring goals for fun as well, obviously. So it's not so bad...
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He has 7 assists in 9 apps. Most in La Liga, and tied second most in Europe after Cesc who has 8, Tadic with 7 and Sigurdsson with 7 too.

Baines is just one behind on 6 assists in 9 games which is pretty damn incredible for a full back.
 
Skorenzy said:
It's actually the reverse. Before the 20-minute mark he'd already put Neymar through on goal twice (one shot on target, one over the bar), assisted Iniesta for the 1-0 and fluffed his 1v1 finish after making an excellent run to break RM's offside trap. Right before HT he then single-handedly got the equaliser out of thin air, dribbling through a bodycheck from Ramos to again play in Neymar who was slow to react and got the ball stolen off him by Carvajal straight into an anticipating Messi's path for 2-2.
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Yes, you're right, I was forgetting about his work leading up to the 2-2 and remembering the missed 1 on 1. In my defence (apart from me having a crap memory) it's very much how I remember a lot of United performances ("Scholes kept giving the ball away" = he lost the ball twice in two minutes, but otherwise had a pass completion of 98% etc).

It's also a good reminder of how games can change direction in a single moment. If Messi had scored that 1 on 1 versus Casillas on Saturday, putting the match to 2-0, it could have been a very different outcome. Certainly this thread would have had a very different tone.
 
jojojo said:
Yes, you're right, I was forgetting about his work leading up to the 2-2 and remembering the missed 1 on 1. In my defence (apart from me having a crap memory) it's very much how I remember a lot of United performances ("Scholes kept giving the ball away" = he lost the ball twice in two minutes, but otherwise had a pass completion of 98% etc).

It's also a good reminder of how games can change direction in a single moment. If Messi had scored that 1 on 1 versus Casillas on Saturday, putting the match to 2-0, it could have been a very different outcome. Certainly this thread would have had a very different tone.
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Yeah, I'm sure it's happens to most people (myself included), especially when you have something on the line as a fan. Memory tends to become incredibly selective or just plain wrong, moreso when it's from a while back.


Annahnomoss said:
He has 7 assists in 9 apps. Most in La Liga, and tied second most in Europe after Cesc who has 8, Tadic with 7 and Sigurdsson with 7 too.

Baines is just one behind on 6 assists in 9 games which is pretty damn incredible for a full back.
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Yup, in La Liga he's top. He's already on 2 assists as well in the CL, a competition where his assist rate has been quite inconsistent over the years (one season he has 5, the next none, etc.) and he's even behind Cristiano in total amount career-wise (23 v 19; also very slightly behind per game, 0.22 v 0.21 apg). That tells you how much difficulties Barça have been having over the years to get anyone beside Messi scoring in the CL (Eto'o's best was 6, Pedro 5, Villa just 4), compared to for example Benzema's brilliant CL record (or even Bale in just his second foray into the competition scoring 6). I can only speculate how many assists Messi would've racked up had he played either with prime Eto'o (04-09) when he himself was in his peak or either played longer with him than one season when Messi did reach that level; or even with prime Villa (or Villa not suffering a leg break at least). When you consider that Villa is the player he's assisted 3rd most after Pedro and Eto'o, both of whom he's played with for a lot longer, that would suggest he'll have no problems hitting up Neymar and Suárez.

In his club career Messi has assisted most to:
Pedro, 17 (sixth season together as regulars)
Eto'o, 15 (three-and-a-half seasons together as regulars)
Villa, 12 (two-and-half seasons together as regulars)
Fàbregas, 10 (three seasons together as regulars)
Alexis, 10 (four seasons together as regulars)
Henry, 8 (two-and-half seasons together as regulars)
Iniesta, 8
Xavi, 8
Tello, 7 (you could argue Tello was never a regular, though he did appear in at least 30 games in two of his three seasons, but only 20 starts in league+CL over those 3 years)
Bojan, 6 (four seasons together as regulars, more or less)
Keita, 6
Neymar, 5 (second season together as regulars, all of them coming in the current one, Messi has assisted 5 of Neymar's 11 goals this season)



So far this season (2014/15) in the top-5 European leagues only,

League assists
Fàbregas, 8
Messi, 7
Sigurdsson, 7
Tadic, 6* (originally Mané's goal that he assisted in the 8-0 v Sunderland, but it was later credited as a Van Aanholt (og.) by the Dubious Goals Panel; weirdly there's a discrepancy on WhoScored's site, their new version still credits goal to Mané and assist to Tadic, but in their old version of the match centre http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/829604/LiveOld/ and Tadic's "recent fixtures" list it's been adjusted; it still shows up as 7 in their global player rankings as well though)
Baines, 6
Candreva, 5
Koke, 5
Kroos, 5
De Bruyne, 5

All comps assists
Koke, 10 (5 LL + 4 CL + 1 SSC)
Fàbregas, 10 (8 PL + 2 CL)
Messi, 9 (7 LL + 2 CL)
Baines 8, (6 PL + 2 EL)
Tadic 7 (6 PL + 1 LC)
Sigurdsson 7 (all PL)
 
Good game from him too, Neymar and Suarez were terrible, he looked few classes above them.
 
Ronaldo: "I want to be the best ever"

Messi: *Scores two, beats Ronaldo to Raul's record*
 
Rado_N said:
I can't remember the last time I watched Barca, how much of this stuff about Messi declining is either crazy exaggeration or people taking the piss?
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It's mostly exaggerated because Messi is being held to his own peak standards. But scoring 91 goals in a calendar year wasn't the norm even for him. To get some perspective: Ronaldo who according to many is playing the football of his life and is seemingly scoring week after week is still 41 goals away from reaching that record with only 8 games remaining (he's on 50 goals in 2014 so far).

This is basically how Messi plays the entire season:

Messi%20pass%202%20Alba.gif


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Messi%20pass%20Suarez%20Ajax.gif


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What has happened is that Barca as a team has declined, particularly in midfield. Messi is not only responsible for scoring and assisting but also transitioning the play forward consistently now. Don't think Barca have scored more than 3 goals this season without Messi being involved, either by scoring (even then he's almost always involved in the buildup of his own goals, see 4th gif), directly creating or playing the second last pass which didn't register as an official assist only because the ball was deflected or hit the woodwork before. Rakitic isn't creating anything in the final third, Iniesta was playing the worst football of his career prior to injury and Suarez is breaking up every attack and will keep doing so for the next 10 or so games until he gets properly match fit.
 
How many goals has Messi got in 2014? For a while after he returned from injury in January he had more than Ronaldo. The 11 goal difference between them this season must have swung in Ronaldo's favour though.
 
Cait Sith said:
It's mostly exaggerated because Messi is being held to his own peak standards. But scoring 91 goals in a calendar year wasn't the norm even for him. To get some perspective: Ronaldo who according to many is playing the football of his life and is seemingly scoring week after week is still 41 goals away from reaching that record with only 8 games remaining (he's on 50 goals in 2014 so far).

This is basically how Messi plays the entire season:

Messi%20pass%202%20Alba.gif


Messi%20G1%20Ajax.gif


Messi%20pass%20Suarez%20Ajax.gif


Messi%20G2%20Ajax.gif


Messi%20dribble%20pass%20Ajax.gif


What has happened is that Barca as a team has declined, particularly in midfield. Messi is not only responsible for scoring and assisting but also transitioning the play forward consistently now. Don't think Barca have scored more than 3 goals this season without Messi being involved, either by scoring (even then he's almost always involved in the buildup of his own goals, see 4th gif), directly creating or playing the second last pass which didn't register as an official assist only because the ball was deflected or hit the woodwork before. Rakitic isn't creating anything in the final third, Iniesta was playing the worst football of his career prior to injury and Suarez is breaking up every attack and will keep doing so for the next 10 or so games until he gets properly match fit.
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Brilliant football.

Messi's weight of pass on the through pass is possibly the best I've ever seen. The amount of chances he sets up with just the perfect weight on it is amazing. The point about the responsibility on him is very true. He's having to basically do everything right now. He's the creative hub, one of the main two goalscorers, and because of Barca's midfield woes, he has added responsibility to bring the ball into those forward areas.
 
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