Why, what happened?
Lionel Messi
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Why, what happened?
Yeah, he's been brilliant. Setting up chances for fun and scoring as well. Pedro and neymar seem to play in their universe it seems.
I was being sarcastic. people think he's arrogant for no particular reason, just trying to hate him.
He's still the best player in the world but looks a mere mortal now compared to previous seasons.
Oh, my bad. Was going to say. I guess people are just jealous really. Messi's a very good professional.
He looked physically unfit for a while. Last year he was sent to Argentina in the middle of the season to do some special pre-season training after his injuries. During the World Cup he said his legs felt 100 kg each. A culmination of injuries, Barca's collective decline, World Cup burden, tax issues, Tito's death and so on I would think. I doubt it's a permanent loss of anything. This season he's steadily improving physically in my opinion and under drill sergeant Enrique I expect him to get back to his very best.
Anyhow, his mere mortalness looks like this nowadays.
Goals are boring so I didn't post them.
Agree with that. Except I'd go with more mortal.
It's definitely because of that, in my opinion: physically he has declined significantly since 2012-13 (and even more since 2011), not just in terms of pure explosiveness or acceleration, but noticeably in terms of stamina (both in the frequency and intensity of his sprints) and even in using his physicality to shield the ball when he runs with it -- this is the first season he's making more unsuccessful dribbles per game than successful ones!
His shooting accuracy and conversion have dropped remarkably, beginning last season (2013-14), which might be connected to that as well. So, the greater focus on playmaking is a bit of a no-brainer in that respect. And it's worked out pretty good so far, now it just remains to be seen how well they can pull it off in the biggest games of course.
He looked physically unfit for a while. Last year he was sent to Argentina in the middle of the season to do some special pre-season training after his injuries. During the World Cup he said his legs felt 100 kg each. A culmination of injuries, Barca's collective decline, World Cup burden, tax issues, Tito's death and so on I would think. I doubt it's a permanent loss of anything. This season he's steadily improving physically in my opinion and under drill sergeant Enrique I expect him to get back to his very best.
Anyhow, his mere mortalness looks like this nowadays.
Goals are boring so I didn't post them.
I do think there's something going on there, as I said in the above reply to Ish. It's not that he's necessarilly become slower (I don't think he's slowed down when it comes to top speed) or less explosive (although I do think he's not as explosive as in the period 2005-2011 which I would assume is normal to a certain extent, but he was still explosive enough after that), but that the frequency and intensity of his running has been cut back tremendously when compared to his peak years 2008-11, but even significantly when compared to 2011-13. As a result of this he's being dispossessed more than ever before while attempting dribbles (cf. the recent WC and the current La Liga season).
I will reserve judgement for when I think he will be fully fit and slot into a rythm. After Christmas break he should get going, I think that's enough time to regain full fitness if he doesn't get injured again and enough time to leave a lot of the distractions of the past behind. Too much was going on around Messi since Tito's cancer relapse, on and off the pitch. He was coached for a large part of 12/13 by Roura while Tito was getting treatment in USA, a man whose biggest football achievement was relegating CE l’Hospitalet. Players came out later and pretty much admitted that they were coaching themselves at that time. Followed by a season where "Tata" Martino gave up 6 months after his appointment because he couldn't handle the pressure at Barcelona, a man who didn't seem to understand how to use Messi and placed him on the right wing against Atletico in the CL because he was "not interested in Leo participating in a lot of the play" (original quote
, he again uses him out wide for Argentina now), a completely different approach to Pep ("the best players always have to play in the center") who got the best out of Messi so far in his career. Martino apparently also used ancient training methods according to many many reports and Isaac Cuenca alluded to the same when, before leaving Barca, he said:.
Then he had a verbal dispute with Barca's vice president about his contract renewal (rumours about Neymar making more), his former youth and later senior coach Tito died, president resigned, tax issues still ongoing, he is father of a child now, World Cup burden, the midfield behind him declined ... So much to distract and interrupt the ryhtm of his game. We should never forget that these players aren't machines.
That's at least my view why he appears to have declined slightly but I don't think it's something physical ("lost a yard") or permanent. If he doesn't get back to his very best within this season I will reconsider.
I was thinking about this during last season as to whether Messi had some mental breaks to his game, perhaps saving himself from re-injury, the WC, fitness, peaking or some combination of the aforementioned. Did Tito, Pep, Rosell vs Laporta, the tax hunt, Madrid media et al have some affect on his psyche as well? Of course, I also wondered, maybe it was family?
Having a child with someone you love, in general, is a life changing event but for someone so private, family-centric and driven I wondered if it might either take the edge off his game or distract him enough to have less focus because he's a natural footballer, IMO. He trains incredibly in general but his skillset is that of someone being born with a gift, effortless. How often have we seen him simply decide when to flip the switch and go into Messi mode although I saw less of that last season and since we've never really seen anything less than relentless & lethal pursuit of winning from him for years, it justifiably raises questions.
For me, I ultimately considered the family aspect as being an area where his focus had been quite understandably shifted a bit. Didn't take long to then wonder if family would become the drugs that killed Maradona's career for Leo
I know it might seem harsh but I thought it was at least plausible. This season, far too early still, I see a renewed Messi. He's not yet 100% for me but I see a different player than last season - a player sharper in areas he needed to be - intensity, defending, movement & teamplay. How much of that is on Lucho too, I wonder. But either way, I feel his sort of Doberman like intensity might never be regained
Yet, very good things for Barcelona & fans because Messi is back and best of all he is showing a willingness to not have to be the goalscorer and with Neymar, Suarez et al he doesn't need to be
Yeah, I agree with that. He has indeed already looked more energetic in all those areas you summed up so far. And I acknowledge that the intensity from when he broke onto the scene and subsequently in his peak performance years (2008-11, IMO) is gone, which is a natural evolution for footballers, but his physical "edge" when it comes to dribbling seems to have been quite noticeably deteriorated -- very likely to have been accelerated by his injury-plagued 2013.
It's strange though, last season he lacked energy and intensity in almost every area. So far this season he's been involved in pressing duties a lot more, he's making runs on the outside (!!) of RW (already has given a couple of right-footed crosses and assists like that too), yet in actual 1v1s in more central positions or his typical inside run from the right side to create a shooting angle he can barely get past his marker and seems to get caught out more easily than before (the evidence is there, he's succeeding in the lowest % of take-ons since WhoScored started publishing these stats, ie. 2009-10).
All of that suggests to me that my opinion of him having "lost" the physical advantage of his dribbling style is on the money. And if not entirely, then surely significantly enough that it warranted the current shift to his role as playmaker first and foremost.
Already our players managed to reduce his 'potential' assist count.. Need Suarez fast.
Please let's not twist facts. It was Messi who asked for the pitch invader's autograph and he got rejected!
if i say united will try to sign messi in the 2015 summer, would anyone believe me?
I'm replying to you here instead of continuing in the Cristiano Ronaldo thread.
Thought you meant "sidelines" in a less literal way (as in not being in the picture in the BPITW discussion altogether), but then you add the "flashes of brilliance" thing... I disagree, despite being injury-plagued it was very much a sustained level of brilliance from 2006-07 onward in my opinion (he was already a key player for Barça at this point). The Guardiola era just took it to a higher tier by having Messi rely more on structure (greater emphasis on teamwork and efficiency in his decision-making and physical exertion) as opposed to just his raw talent and physicality (ie. playing on instinct and full intensity) as he did as a teenager.
As for the bolded part, connected to what I just touched on in the above paragraph, I think there are far more similarities between teenage Messi and Guardiola-era Messi than there are between Guardiola-era Messi and post-2011 Messi -- in terms of playing style anyway.
Thought you meant "sidelines" in a less literal way (as in not being in the picture in the BPITW discussion altogether), but then you add the "flashes of brilliance" thing... I disagree, despite being injury-plagued it was very much a sustained level of brilliance from 2006-07 onward in my opinion (he was already a key player for Barça at this point). The Guardiola era just took it to a higher tier by having Messi rely more on structure (greater emphasis on teamwork and efficiency in his decision-making and physical exertion) as opposed to just his raw talent and physicality (ie. playing on instinct and full intensity) as he did as a teenager.
As for the bolded part, connected to what I just touched on in the above paragraph, I think there are far more similarities between teenage Messi and Guardiola-era Messi than there are between Guardiola-era Messi and post-2011 Messi -- in terms of playing style anyway.
No because Barcelona have got a transfer ban until 2016.
I agree. He was already world class in 06/07. His dribbling was immense and his passing was good too. He was a very good finisher at the time also (14 goals in 26 games in the league and he did not start them all). Injuries were holding him back (he picked up quite a few in 06/07 and 07/08) as well as problems at Barca such as less structure as you mentioned as well as the "crisis" they were in. I am sure that the fact that he was the main man with more responsibility once Ronaldinho left spurred him on to greater heights in addition to more experience and confidence with him getting older etc.
I thought they can sell players? Would be unfair if a player wanted to move but wasn't allowed to because of Barcas f up. Not saying we will sign Messi next year anyway.
We aren't signing Messi... why would anyone even suggest that?
Its not really fair for a player to not honour their contract anyways.
His wiki shows 249 goals in his 284 league games at the senior level, and 361 goals in 434 senior club games (excluding Barca b games). That's from the age of 17 at the top level. Given he's not even been all about goals, I was wondering which top players from past eras had similar records throughout their careers?
Yeah, he had already taken Ronaldinho's position as the darling of the Nou Camp and become their most important player by 2007.
Eusebio had a similar record but played around 400 games, still impressive.
Not really, if that was the case people would never move jobs. Not to mention the buying club pays a lot of money to buy out the footballer contract.
Yup. Remember seeing his first goal live.
Greatest ever.
Greatest ever.
There's plenty of them, mostly pre-1960s though. From the 60s/70s onward I doubt there will be many even in the lesser leagues.
Messi's record for Barça in full, by the way: 361 goals & 135 assists in 434 apps (372 starts) in all competitions.
Eusebio scored 428 in 430 appearances, just shy of a goal a game.
The most impressive stats I've seen are from Josef Bican ... 670 goals in 406 appearances.
Puskas got 508 in 521.
By far the best player of his generation, I was heartbroken when he lost the wc final.
363 goals + 137 assists with Barca = 500 in total
Why? Unless you are from Argentina this just reeks of fanboy.
Why?
Heartbroken he lost the final to a better side?
He's slowly getting back to his best with each passing game.
The amount of chances he creates while keeping a 1 goal per game ratio is unnatural.
The amount of chances he creates while keeping a 1 goal per game ratio is unnatural.
Yeah, why not? I don't have a particular affection for germans as I do for argentinians and Messi in particular.
He still had a good tournament though and even though he did not win the world cup, he is still among the very best ever like Maradona, Pele, and Di Stefano imo (mainly due to his performances from 2008 to 2012 for Barcelona). I still rate him in the best three to four players ever and that is pretty much as far as you can go. There is no such thing as the best player of all time as it is too subjective. The best you can do is be considered among the best ever and he has done that.
That pass for Neymar was perfect. Looked easy, but the weight and angle on it, set it up perfectly Neymar to score (well taken I might add)
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