Lionel Messi

[crappycraperson]

Why "nah" ? It's not like I said anything outrageous, just imagine how many personal honors Ronaldo would have had by now if Messi didn't exist. Ronaldo will never be satisfied with being his competitor and inferior player. It must frustrate him.

Ah,, Ronaldo may feel bad about it personally but in terms of football history I don't think he will suffer for it.

 

[Moby]

Barca being weak due to Martino is the point though. You were going on about motivation that's why I brought up Chelsea. They may have been bad but did not lack in motivation. There is no excuse for Messi's Barca to be short on motivation against Bayern. Infact seeing Pep on the other side should give them something extra to fight for. They surely did not lack any today.

The point about Maradona was that he was able to elevate an above average team against very good teams. Why can't Messi do the same for current Barca against Bayern? If anything it should be easier.

I would like to see an example where Maradona was against the odds like Messi would be against similar quality of opposition.

And what motivation did Chelsea have? All they did was camp in their area and hope to block everything. Make that match happen 10 times again and Chelsea would not win a single one of them. It was like our game against Pompey that got us knocked out from the FA Cup in 07-08.

 

[crappycraperson]

I would like to see an example where Maradona was against the odds like Messi would be against similar quality of opposition.

And what motivation did Chelsea have? All they did was camp in their area and hope to block everything. Make that match happen 10 times again and Chelsea would not win a single one of them. It was like our game against Pompey that got us knocked out from the FA Cup in 07-08.

I am not sure what you mean by motivation?

Were Chelsea not motivated to win the CL anyway they can? Would Barca not be motivated to avenge last season's humiliation against Bayern? How does having a weak coach matter in that sense?

 

[kouroux]

Ah,, Ronaldo may feel bad about it personally but in terms of football history I don't think he will suffer for it.

That's was what I meant, he'll also be remembered as one of the best ever footballers without a doubt. We're lucky to have them both performing amazingly for several season, when they retire, we might be left with a much lower level regarding the best players in the world.

 

[Sky1981]

I don't think people care about Napoli, it was about the WC

I might be dead wrong, but how many great teams Argentina has to go though back then.

Compared to nowdays where every nation pose a potential threat, I think it's much harder to win a World Cup on one's own (credit to Maradona), but in the same way Maradona hasn't won a treble and dominating for years sweeping through club's competition year in year out.

 

[Moby]

I am not sure what you mean by motivation?

Were Chelsea not motivated to win the CL anyway they can? Would Barca not be motivated to avenge last season's humiliation against Bayern? How does having a weak coach matter in that sense?

There's a difference between being motivated and showing great hunger and desire during every single minute. We should know it better than anyone else seeing for years how SAF made average players perform above their levels just by making them believe in themselves.

Pep kept up Barca's hunger to win everything for 3 years running. They won everything under the sun in 2009 yet they came out in every game, no matter how big or small, looking like they have put their lives on the line for that game. It's just not the same and at a game like a CL semi that would matter immensely.

And then, Martino's tactical ineptness would obviously affect how the team performs, no?

 

[crappycraperson]

There's a difference between being motivated and showing great hunger and desire during every single minute. We should know it better than anyone else seeing for years how SAF made average players perform above their levels just by making them believe in themselves.

Pep kept up Barca's hunger to win everything for 3 years running. They won everything under the sun in 2009 yet they came out in every game, no matter how big or small, looking like they have put their lives on the line for that game. It's just not the same and at a game like a CL semi that would matter immensely.

And then, Martino's tactical ineptness would obviously affect how the team performs, no?

I am purely talking about players trying to perform at their best. A manager can not affect that. Barca do not have any average players who need propping up by any manager.

Barca not being at their best is the point. If they were under Pep, they would be favs against even this Bayern. Heck, they looked second best to Milan and PSG last season itself. Messi then did exactly what I am saying and dragged them over the line.

 

[Sky1981]

@AldoPaine18

Regarding motivation. I don't think parking the bus is that simple and foolproof.

We'll see how hard it is to park the bus and get something out of it. If any Chelsea are more motivated in my eyes, if you think parking the bus for 120 minutes of high intensity football in the CL final is easy, it's not. You'll need a tremendous amount of believes, hardwork, stamina, concentration, and luck.

It might not be pretty, but if they can close down Barca with that team, thy deserve to have a shot at the PK and win it altogether.

 

[Moby]

I am purely talking about players trying to perform at their best. A manager can not affect that. Barca do not have any average players who need propping up by any manager.

Barca not being at their best is the point. If they were under Pep, they would be favs against even this Bayern. Heck, they looked second best to Milan and PSG last season itself. Messi then did exactly what I am saying and dragged them over the line.

Really? A manager has to provide the system that brings the best out of his players. Pep did that, he introduced Busquets, pulled Messi to the middle, drilled the possession retention and pressing into the team, it had a major part to play in the development of all these players. Compare that to Maradona who played Messi as a CM in the WC, what can a forward do if he's played as a CM?

Barca do not have average players, but neither do Bayern who have lost 5 times in the last 95 matches. That's the point, Barca is still a point from the top in the title race despite Martino's averageness, but in a game like Bayern you can't ignore the importance of tactics, motivation and the input that comes from the manager which more often than not makes the difference.

 

[Moby]

@AldoPaine18

Regarding motivation. I don't think parking the bus is that simple and foolproof.

We'll see how hard it is to park the bus and get something out of it. If any Chelsea are more motivated in my eyes, if you think parking the bus for 120 minutes of high intensity football in the CL final is easy, it's not. You'll need a tremendous amount of believes, hardwork, stamina, concentration, and luck.

It might not be pretty, but if they can close down Barca with that team, thy deserve to have a shot at the PK and win it altogether.

It's tough, but Chelsea failed in what they set out to do. They needed luck, not their performance, to win. Messi and Robben missed penalties in semi and the final, they had players sent off. That's a failure of what they set out to do.

A successful parking the bus job is what we did in 07-08. We barely let them have a clear chance at goal, and while the team was not as strong as post Pep Barca, they still had quality players who were good enough to score at least once in 180 minutes but didn't.

 

[crappycraperson]

Really? A manager has to provide the system that brings the best out of his players. Pep did that, he introduced Busquets, pulled Messi to the middle, drilled the possession retention and pressing into the team, it had a major part to play in the development of all these players. Compare that to Maradona who played Messi as a CM in the WC, what can a forward do if he's played as a CM?

Barca do not have average players, but neither do Bayern who have lost 5 times in the last 95 matches. That's the point, Barca is still a point from the top in the title race despite Martino's averageness, but in a game like Bayern you can't ignore the importance of tactics, motivation and the input that comes from the manager which more often than not makes the difference.

I still have no idea why you don't get what I am saying.

I explicitly used trying. Regardless of the manager, Barca players tried their best today, they may not have performed to their level best but they that does not mean the effort was not there. It would be there for Bayern as well.

I am not saying Barca should be favs again Bayern. The fact that they won't be is the point. That's why it is a test for Messi. To drag his team against the best in the world.

I mean if Messi produces a solo performance to score a hat trick against them to win the tie, are you telling me he won't be hailed for it? Or would that be because Martino suddenly became good?

Football is very much a team game where top individuals can still make a huge impact

 

[crappycraperson]

It's tough, but Chelsea failed in what they set out to do. They needed luck, not their performance, to win. Messi and Robben missed penalties in semi and the final, they had players sent off. That's a failure of what they set out to do.

A successful parking the bus job is what we did in 07-08. We barely let them have a clear chance at goal, and while the team was not as strong as post Pep Barca, they still had quality players who were good enough to score at least once in 180 minutes but didn't.

Failing has nothing to do with motivation or effort though. There is zero link between them

 

[Moby]

I still have no idea why you don't get what I am saying.

I explicitly used trying. Regardless of the manager, Barca players tried their best today, they may not have performed to their level best but they that does not mean the effort was not there. It would be there for Bayern as well.

I am not saying Barca should be favs again Bayern. The fact that they won't be is the point. That's why it is a test for Messi. To drag his team against the best in the world.

I mean if Messi produces a solo performance to score a hat trick against them to win the tie, are you telling me he won't be hailed for it? Or would that be because Martino suddenly became good?

Football is very much a team game where top individuals can still make a huge impact

You took a leap from "trying" to "dragging the team against all odds" in that very post. I never questioned any Barca player of lacking effort, even under Martino, but that was never my point.

What I don't understand is what is left to be proven in Messi's club career that after all these years he's being put to test.

 

[crappycraperson]

You took a leap from "trying" to "dragging the team against all odds" in that very post. I never questioned any Barca player of lacking effort, even under Martino, but that was never my point.

What I don't understand is what is left to be proven in Messi's club career that after all these years he's being put to test.

So you are telling me if Messi wins the tie for Barca against Bayern, it won't enhance his legacy at all?

 

[Moby]

So you are telling me if Messi wins the tie for Barca against Bayern, it won't enhance his legacy at all?

Not for me, not a single bit. He's done more than enough, he's been in adverse situations and carried his team to crucial wins. It would be great and I expect him to deliver a top performance, as he's set high standards for himself specially in big and important games, but seriously if he retires right at this very moment, he'd be as great as he can ever be. For me there's nothing left in his club career that he needs to add.

 

[kouroux]

His club career is as complete as it can possibly be, he's won everything.

 

[Skorenzy]

Not for me, not a single bit. He's done more than enough, he's been in adverse situations and carried his team to crucial wins. It would be great and I expect him to deliver a top performance, as he's set high standards for himself specially in big and important games, but seriously if he retires right at this very moment, he'd be as great as he can ever be. For me there's nothing left in his club career that he needs to add.

Don't know how you can say that. He's still not particularly close to several other all-time greats with regards to club football IMO.

 

[Lu Tze]

Ah,, Ronaldo may feel bad about it personally but in terms of football history I don't think he will suffer for it.

Yeah, they'll still go down as the greatest rivalry in the sport...ever. Maybe even one of the biggest in any sport, ever.

 

[Skorenzy]

Is this a joke? Ronaldo is playing for the constant underdog Portugal and he has had an alright NT career already with a fourth place finish for a small country. Messi is playing for an already top team in Argentina and he hasn't won anything of significance in his NT career.

Maradona of course did the impossible feat of taking a club to extreme heights - something that is impossible these days to that extent. But Maradona and Pele's NT record is just on a completely different level to what Ronaldo and Messi has performed so far.

It was an extraordinary feat, no doubt. But the real key lies in him being able to (sort of) repeat that trick with an equally unfancied NT. Because on the club front it might have been extraordinary, but it was not something unrepeatable, in fact it'd been done before just two seasons earlier (in Maradona's debut season at Napoli) by Preben Elkjaer at Hellas Verona, who guided them to the only piece of top level silverware in their history (they have some Serie B titles as well) when they won the league in the days of a Juventus side boasting Platini at the absolute peak of his powers. Sampdoria also managed the only Serie A title in their history straight after Napoli's 2nd.

So, just to summarize that and to put Maradona's achievements at Napoli into context: during the 7 seasons he spent in Italy there were 3 clubs (incl. Napoli) who won their only Serie A titles EVER. That to me indicates that it wasn't maybe all down to Maradona just being there, but Maradona being there in the right time and place.

The thing that really sets Maradona apart is that he could affect his NT in a similar manner. Without that I don't think there'd be much contention with Pelé for the all-time #1 spot.

--
On Maradona and Pelé's NT record vis-à-vis Messi/Cristiano. Don't really know what you're referencing here. Stats? Or performances? Either way, there's all kinds of caveats to be made for all four players' situations in their NT's.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Yeah but that's really unfair, no?

Even if Messi goes and joins say Udinese or something (mental to ask him to do that just to prove he can replicate Maradona's greatness) there will be arguments like Serie A in the 80s was so much stronger with the world's best players playing in that. Now what do people want? Baresi and Rijkaard to enter a time machine and come back so that Messi can show he can do the same thing Maradona did? It's mental.

If you ask me, Maradona was completely different to Messi in what he expected from himself. Messi expects complete and flawless excellence from himself. He's a complete machine, more like Pele than Maradona. For him, every pass, every touch must be perfect or it's a bad day in the office. Whereas Maradona was much more of a romantic, he didn't care if he took risks that ended up giving the ball away or whatever, he just wanted to go to a place where everyone would love him and expect him to raise everyone around him. He did that at Napoli, sure, but that's mainly because he made that choice himself, and it should never be mandatory for anyone else to do the same just to prove he's great.

And while Barca last season was not a weak team by any stretch of imagination, it completely busted the myth that Messi cannot perform without Xavi and Iniesta controlling the game and feeding him the service. He carried them to the league title with a record points total, with the manager being in unfortunate health circumstances, he himself had fitness issues, the team not coping as well as they hoped after Pep's departure and what not. He's already played many games where the whole didn't work as well as Barca usually does but he with his individual brilliance and intelligence completely took hold of the game and influenced it not just with goals or assists but basically carrying out most attacks.

The WC is what will elevate Messi to the all top 3 and distance it from the likes of Cruyff, Di Stefano, etc who will being every bit as good as the current top 2, don't have the same reputation due to lack of World Cups or International achievements otherwise. Nothing can match the legacy a WC provides, more so when you are the one who provided the heroics to win it, which is something Messi would need to do if Argentine want to have any chance. But if he carries Argentina to a WC win, that too in Brazil, that would simply seal it. For the public that is, in my mind there is no doubt that technically he's every bit as good as Maradona.

about maradona and napoli conquering the serie A at that time when the italian league "was so strong" ... verona won it in 1984/85 and sampdoria in 1990/91 none of those teams ever won the serie A again, and they did it without maradona,

what i'm tryingn to say is, it wasnt that hard for small teams to win it, and that they didn't need maradona to do it

Napoli, with Diego, won it in 1986/7 and in 1989/90 and he played for Napoli from 1984 till 1991 were he won two scudettos one copa de italia and one uefa cup

 

[vijay]

Barca being weak due to Martino is the point though. You were going on about motivation that's why I brought up Chelsea. They may have been bad but did not lack in motivation. There is no excuse for Messi's Barca to be short on motivation against Bayern. Infact seeing Pep on the other side should give them something extra to fight for. They surely did not lack any today.

The point about Maradona was that he was able to elevate an above average team against very good teams. Why can't Messi do the same for current Barca against Bayern? If anything it should be easier.

Because Messi wasn't match fit, and not fit to start against them. Right from Jan when he went down with his first injury break he was struggling, with Real Madrid holding the whip in the classicos and dominating them in the Kings cup, its the good work done by Messi before the winter window that made their league win look eary. He has already motivated Barcelona against better teams than the current Bayern.

 

[Count Orduck]

Because Messi wasn't match fit, and not fit to start against them. Right from Jan when he went down with his first injury break he was struggling, with Real Madrid holding the whip in the classicos and dominating them in the Kings cup, its the good work done by Messi before the winter window that made their league win look eary. He has already motivated Barcelona against better teams than the current Bayern.

Has he? The current Bayern are the best team Messi will ever have played against, primarily because the only team better than them in the past ten years were Barcelona themselves.

Not to say he can't or won't motivate them, just that I don't think he's ever had the chance against a team of the quality, because the only other one that's existed during that period was the one he was playing for!

 

[vijay]

Has he? The current Bayern are the best team Messi will ever played against, primarily because the only team better than them in the past ten years were Barcelona themselves.

The current Bayern under Guardiola is something special, with a wobbling backline, Barcelona do not have a chance against them.

The Bayern that beat beat Barcelona is the one Chelsea beat in their own back yard, not much different to the ones, that got battered by Inter Milan twice.

 

[vijay]

Messi did have a poor game against Inter Milan, but Barcelona were able to thrash the same team in the group before they lost to them in semis. All great players would have off days, Messi is not exception if the same yard stick is applied to the likes of Zidane, R9 Ronaldo or Ronaldinho and micro analyse their game they would look plainly rubbish .

 

[TheNewEra]

The current Bayern under Guardiola is something special, with a wobbling backline, Barcelona do not have a chance against them.

The Bayern that beat beat Barcelona is the one Chelsea beat in their own back yard, not much different to the ones, that got battered by Inter Milan twice.

Bayern are beatable by Barcelona, they are closer than you think.

The thing with Bayern and Barcelona, is if you talk about the Achilles heel of the team, Bayern it's the back four, with Alaba going forward, meaning that wingers like Neymar will have chances, and Messi running through the middle... so Pep predictably play Lahm in CDM with Martinez (which makes less players going forward) so do they play with one CDM instead (more favourable for Messi), and he we play Rafinha at RB, so Lahm and Martinez will be hard for Messi to dribble through.

Equally with Barcelona Alves and Alba like to go forward, Robben and Ribéry are the post pivotal players to Bayern acting as inverted wingers making runs in behind, so they will really need cover in those positions dropping back.

Both can control football matches, it's a very close game to call, but Barcelona are capable of beating Bayern, with Lionel Messi on the pitch (who was injured last time around) you are always in with a great chance, Barca have also had Neymar in the summer so they have strengthened.

 

[vijay]

I might be dead wrong, but how many great teams Argentina has to go though back then.

Compared to nowdays where every nation pose a potential threat, I think it's much harder to win a World Cup on one's own (credit to Maradona), but in the same way Maradona hasn't won a treble and dominating for years sweeping through club's competition year in year out.

Back then winning the UEFA cup carried more water than winning the European cups, it was Steaua Bucharest and later Milan that added, color to the competition with some breath taking football. Messi for internationals is individually a more dominating footballer than he was with Barcelona, its the trainwreck Maradona that needs to take the blame for fecking up his chances in the last world cup.

 

[Malva]

All Messi's goals and assists





I find the assists he makes more magical. Some of the dribbles he goes on to draw defenders are just ridiculous, and to have the awareness to slip a precise pass with 3 or 4 defenders on your back is just unique.

the assist he made yesterday isn't in this video though.

 

[Danny1982]

People seem to forget that Messi was injured in pretty much both legs against Bayern last year.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Don't know how you can say that. He's still not particularly close to several other all-time greats with regards to club football IMO.

like who?

 

[Skorenzy]

like who?

Well the obvious ones that spring to my mind would be Di Stéfano, Puskás, Gento, Pelé, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, G.Müller and then there's arguably also the likes of Platini, Eusébio, Zidane, Raúl, Luis Suárez, Kopa, Rivera, Van Basten, etc. that he's only just equalled or surpassed depending on how you rate certain achievements. Obviously time is on his side, but for the very top ones he'll need to consistently be at the top of his game for the next 3-4 years to truly surpass them and claim the "title" of greatest club footballer of all-time, IMO.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Well the obvious ones that spring to my mind would be Di Stéfano, Puskás, Gento, Pelé, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, G.Müller and then there's arguably also the likes of Platini, Eusébio, Zidane, Raúl, Luis Suárez, Kopa, Rivera, Van Basten, etc. that he's only just equalled or surpassed depending on how you rate certain achievements. Obviously time is on his side, but for the very top ones he'll need to consistently be at the top of his game for the next 3-4 years to truly surpass them and claim the "title" of greatest club footballer of all-time, IMO.

Who have had better club careers than Messi?

Only D Stefano, Cruyff, Pele standout n that list

He has 5 La Liga's, 3 Chamkpions league medals' ( 2

 

[Skorenzy]

Who have had better club careers than Messi?

Only D Stefano, Cruyff, Pele standout n that list

He has 5 La Liga's, 3 Chamkpions league medals' ( 2

I'd definitely also have Puskás and G.Müller then, that qualifies as "several" wouldn't you say?

Messi has 6 La Liga titles, not 5 (I don't think the minimum apps required rule applies in Spain). Although his part in the first one is fairly academic indeed.
He also wasn't yet a key component of either the 2005/06 league or CL win (although he played his part in the latter competition by demolishing Chelsea before his injury).

I make that 4 league titles and 2 CL titles with him as the main man. Add 2 Copa del Rey, 2 Club World Cups and a whole host of Super Cups. An impressive haul, for sure. But hardly unique.
On the individual honours front, it would've been a lot more interesting had FIFA not decided to infantilize a perfectly good award like the Ballon d'Or and basically make it into a popularity contest. Per old criteria/press vote Messi would currently be on 2 Ballon d'Or instead of 4, I think. Again something that quite a few players had achieved before him or had been close to achieving. Hence my inclusion of the likes of Kopa, Suárez, Rivera as arguably equalling him at this point in time.


In terms of pure trophy haul he's obviously nowhere even close to the upper echelons, the Gento's, the Maldini's, the Giggses... so I don't understand why you would say he can't/doesn't need to (?) improve on what he's already achieved. He's 26 for f'ck's sake, the only way is up.

 

[Sky1981]

Back then winning the UEFA cup carried more water than winning the European cups, it was Steaua Bucharest and later Milan that added, color to the competition with some breath taking football. Messi for internationals is individually a more dominating footballer than he was with Barcelona, its the trainwreck Maradona that needs to take the blame for fecking up his chances in the last world cup.

Which is what I'm saying.

Maradona have done it in the world cup, but he never consistently dominates club football for a decade (Something messi has done). You just need to look at winner medals to see the difference.

So I'm guessing, right now apart from that romantism of Maradona won it single handedly, I think they're pretty close, and when Messi finally called it a day, it'll not be that one sided on whose the GOAT player

 

[JaffyJoe]

I'd definitely also have Puskás and G.Müller then, that qualifies as "several" wouldn't you say?

Messi has 6 La Liga titles, not 5 (I don't think the minimum apps required rule applies in Spain). Although his part in the first one is fairly academic indeed.
He also wasn't yet a key component of either the 2005/06 league or CL win (although he played his part in the latter competition by demolishing Chelsea before his injury).

I make that 4 league titles and 2 CL titles with him as the main man. Add 2 Copa del Rey, 2 Club World Cups and a whole host of Super Cups. An impressive haul, for sure. But hardly unique.
On the individual honours front, it would've been a lot more interesting had FIFA not decided to infantilize a perfectly good award like the Ballon d'Or and basically make it into a popularity contest. Per old criteria/press vote Messi would currently be on 2 Ballon d'Or instead of 4, I think. Again something that quite a few players had achieved before him or had been close to achieving. Hence my inclusion of the likes of Kopa, Suárez, Rivera as arguably equalling him at this point in time.


In terms of pure trophy haul he's obviously nowhere even close to the upper echelons, the Gento's, the Maldini's, the Giggses... so I don't understand why you would say he can't/doesn't need to (?) improve on what he's already achieved. He's 26 for f'ck's sake, the only way is up.

Laptop blacked out before could reply properly, didn't even know that reply was posted.

Thought you were talking more of trophy haul/contribution. How many season's was Giggs are best player? He had the benefit of playing in a fantastic team. The players I listed are the only one's who at club level I feel have surpassed him in terms of both.

In terms of his generation only his Spanish teammates have bettered him so I would add Xavi and Iniesta to that list too. I think he has proven himself on the club stage he doesn't literally need to get the most trophies, if he retired today he has had an amazing career, he has done enough to put him in the discussion for best ever player. He needs to prove himself more on the international stage for me. Do Argentina have the quality to win? don't think so, but riding Messi's coatails they could get to the semi's and he could win the golden ball, that would be enough for me. If he never reaches the heights in an Argentina shirt that will be a mark on how he is remembered.

I guess it's an agree to disagree thing. At club level for me he has nothing left to prove.

 

[Skorenzy]

Laptop blacked out before could reply properly, didn't even know that reply was posted.

Thought you were talking more of trophy haul/contribution. How many season's was Giggs are best player? He had the benefit of playing in a fantastic team. The players I listed are the only one's who at club level I feel have surpassed him in terms of both.

In terms of his generation only his Spanish teammates have bettered him so I would add Xavi and Iniesta to that list too. I think he has proven himself on the club stage he doesn't literally need to get the most trophies, if he retired today he has had an amazing career, he has done enough to put him in the discussion for best ever player. He needs to prove himself more on the international stage for me. Do Argentina have the quality to win? don't think so, but riding Messi's coatails they could get to the semi's and he could win the golden ball, that would be enough for me. If he never reaches the heights in an Argentina shirt that will be a mark on how he is remembered.

I guess it's an agree to disagree thing. At club level for me he has nothing left to prove.

Well, I am talking about his achievements and honours with his team and as an individual at club level. In that respect how has he even come close to Di Stéfano, Puskás, Pelé or Cruyff? And how has he noticeably surpassed the likes of Kopa, Suárez, Rivera, etc. that I mentioned earlier? Re: "pure" trophy haul, my point wasn't so much that he needs to literally win more trophies than those players, but that he still needs to win some more while being a key part of the team.

I don't really feel like listing all of Messi's individual and team achievements/honours and comparing them with the others, right now. Maybe tomorrow I'll get on that, but I maintain that I don't think I exaggerated when I said there's still several all-time greats ahead of him on club level, by some distance as well.

Fyi I agree that he needs to do more in an international tournament. Also it shouldn't really matter whether Argentina is among the top 2 or top 5 favourites for a title ("have the quality to win" as you put it), they're friggin' Argentina, a perennial powerhouse of international football and one of the highest ranked NT's of all time. The time for such excuses has gone. This time it's his team, he's replicated his Barcelona form during the WCQ campaign for a good two years now and there should be nothing (apart from injury) stopping him from at least getting Arg to a semi-final or final.

 

[kouroux]

I think you guys aren't even talking about the same thing. One is saying his individual performances at club level have reached a level with all the different trophies, best player, best goalscorer accolade that it won't change his status to add more. The other is saying number of trophies won is more important ( 10 La Ligas makes him a better than having 6 La Ligas).
I'm with @JaffyJoe, Giggsy could be half the number of PL titles won that it wouldn't change his status in world football and how he'd be perceived as a player. I think Messi "just" needs to have a cracking World Cup with Argentina (that doesn't mean he HAS TO win it)
There is a pt where winning more titles doesn't change the way I see and rate a player.

 

[JaffyJoe]

I think you guys aren't even talking about the same thing. One is saying his individual performances at club level have reached a level with all the different trophies, best player, best goalscorer accolade that it won't change his status to add more. The other is saying number of trophies won is more important ( 10 La Ligas makes him a better than having 6 La Ligas).
I'm with @JaffyJoe, Giggsy could be half the number of PL titles won that it wouldn't change his status in world football and how he'd be perceived as a player. I think Messi "just" needs to have a cracking World Cup with Argentina (that doesn't mean he HAS TO win it)
There is a pt where winning more titles doesn't change the way I see and rate a player.

This whole post sums up how I feel if that helps @Skorenzy

 

[FCBarca]

 

[Danny1982]

Isn't he now 7 goals away from breaking the La Liga all time top-scorer record?

 

[Skorenzy]

I think you guys aren't even talking about the same thing. One is saying his individual performances at club level have reached a level with all the different trophies, best player, best goalscorer accolade that it won't change his status to add more. The other is saying number of trophies won is more important ( 10 La Ligas makes him a better than having 6 La Ligas).
I'm with @JaffyJoe, Giggsy could be half the number of PL titles won that it wouldn't change his status in world football and how he'd be perceived as a player. I think Messi "just" needs to have a cracking World Cup with Argentina (that doesn't mean he HAS TO win it)
There is a pt where winning more titles doesn't change the way I see and rate a player.

No, that's really not what I'm saying. I'm saying that being the key/dominant player while winning more trophies will "make him better". If his performances are crap and he coasts his way to another CL title on the back of someone else's labor then that won't have much value at all. The context matters obviously.

@JaffyJoe 's whole point just seems a bit nonchalant. There is plenty that Messi hasn't yet achieved or produced that others before him have.

I didn't really want to go point-by-point on this, but as I'm not making my argument clear enough it seems I don't have a choice... although let's just clarify first.

@JaffyJoe Do you consider Messi's club career at this point already superior to Di Stéfano, Pelé, Puskás, Cruyff's?