Lionel Messi

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Danny1982 said:
Isn't he now 7 goals away from breaking the La Liga all time top-scorer record?
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16. He could've done it this season without the injuries (well, he still could, 9 more games). He maybe even could've equalled or bettered the gpg ratio without the injuries. That'll be tricky now, but he's incredibly close already anyway.


#1 Telmo Zarra, 251 goals in 277 games (0.91 gpg)
#2 Lionel Messi, 236 goals in 268 games (0.88 gpg)
#3 Hugo Sánchez, 234 goals in 347 games (0.67 gpg)
 
Skorenzy said:
16. He could've done it this season without the injuries (well, he still could, 9 more games). He maybe even could've equalled or bettered the gpg ratio without the injuries. That'll be tricky now, but he's incredibly close already anyway.


#1 Telmo Zarra, 251 goals in 277 games (0.91 gpg)
#2 Lionel Messi, 236 goals in 268 games (0.88 gpg)
#3 Hugo Sánchez, 234 goals in 347 games (0.67 gpg)
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Aah thanks.

So did he pass Hugo Sanchez with his hattrick against Madrid?
 
Danny1982 said:
Aah thanks.

So did he pass Hugo Sanchez with his hattrick against Madrid?
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Yup. He achieved a whole load of special/unique feats with that hat-trick.

Real Madrid is back again on top of his favourite victim list after having been overtaken on that by city-rivals Atlético. The Bernábeu is his favourite hunting ground outside of the Camp Nou.

He overtook Hugo Sánchez' record as foreign player with most goals in La Liga and became the sole all-time leading scorer in El Clásico (he was tied with Di Stéfano).

He's the player in history with the most league goals away to Real Madrid.

Also read somewhere he's the only player ever to have scored a hat-trick against Real Madrid at the Bernábeu (not sure how accurate that is though).
 
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:drool:
 
Their over-reliance on him to produce when they are struggling is beyond belief. Nobody else ever seems to step up and save them.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Ronaldo's better :wenger:
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I struggle to see what the basis is for such an opinion considering it's clear that Messi is a superior passer, creator, dribbler, has a better first touch, has greater technical attributes etc. They're both incredible goalscorers and I could see an argument for Ronaldo being more versatile in how he gets his goals but I'll always be stumped how anyone can come to the conclusion that he's actually a "better" footballer.

Messi is playing for a team that is on a serious decline and has Javier Mascherano as a starting centre back. Let that sink in...
 
Sixpence said:
Their over-reliance on him to produce when they are struggling is beyond belief. Nobody else ever seems to step up and save them.
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Spot on. They're so one-dimensional it's unbelievable. Stop Messi and you stop them. If he's having an off night then they ain't winning.
 
Pink Moon said:
Spot on. They're so one-dimensional it's unbelievable. Stop Messi and you stop them. If he's having an off night then they ain't winning.
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You would expect Iniesta, Neymar, Pedro and Fabregas(didn't see the match but he was supposedly playing deep tonight) to score goals.
Iniesta scores for Spain when it matters but he has failed to deliver when Messi is off for Barcelona in the last year or so. The PSG quarter-final, quite a few matches this year, he has gone into a little hiding. He has scored just 3 goals this season which is a real shame considering Messi was injured for such a long time and he could have easily taken that opportunity. Maybe it will all come out in the world cup.
But the problem you mention is present. They need a proper goal-scoring striker who can be a target man. They need some height.
 
I think they need a complete overhaul. Quicken the tempo, play with more pace, a whole new defence brought in etc. Quite simply, they need Kloppo!
 
Pink Moon said:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I struggle to see what the basis is for such an opinion considering it's clear that Messi is a superior passer, creator, dribbler, has a better first touch, has greater technical attributes etc. They're both incredible goalscorers and I could see an argument for Ronaldo being more versatile in how he gets his goals but I'll always be stumped how anyone can come to the conclusion that he's actually a "better" footballer.

Messi is playing for a team that is on a serious decline and has Javier Mascherano as a starting centre back. Let that sink in...
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I don't know Malappapper thinks so, the last two displays have been the worst professional performances for any player his caliber. Also, pick a story line. Either Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas are all incredibly talented or incredibly shit. :D
 
ManUtd43vr said:
Iniesta scores for Spain when it matters but he has failed to deliver when Messi is off for Barcelona in the last year or so. The PSG quarter-final, quite a few matches this year, he has gone into a little hiding. He has scored just 3 goals this season which is a real shame considering Messi was injured for such a long time and he could have easily taken that opportunity.
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I've been ranting about this for more than a year, where were you?
 
fishfingers15 said:
I don't know Malappapper thinks so, the last two displays have been the worst professional performances for any player his caliber. Also, pick a story line. Either Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas are all incredibly talented or incredibly shit. :D
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That's just rubbish, I saw the second half today and he was easily their best player. If that's worst display by top player than your hero Ronaldo by his all-around play(ignoring goals) isn't top player at all(which is of course ridiculous). I am interested how would you rate Ronaldo's performance against Barcelona few weeks ago then?
 
Amar__ said:
That's just rubbish, I saw the second half today and he was easily their best player. If that's worst display by top player than your hero Ronaldo by his all-around play(ignoring goals) isn't top player at all(which is of course ridiculous). I am interested how would you rate Ronaldo's performance against Barcelona few weeks ago then?
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Sorry, Ronaldo's not my hero. Messi's not my enemy. I didn't see him play in the last two matches. It's the views of a Barcelona fan, so you have to ask him.
 
ManUtd43vr said:
You would expect Iniesta, Neymar, Pedro and Fabregas(didn't see the match but he was supposedly playing deep tonight) to score goals.
Iniesta scores for Spain when it matters but he has failed to deliver when Messi is off for Barcelona in the last year or so. The PSG quarter-final, quite a few matches this year, he has gone into a little hiding. He has scored just 3 goals this season which is a real shame considering Messi was injured for such a long time and he could have easily taken that opportunity. Maybe it will all come out in the world cup.
But the problem you mention is present. They need a proper goal-scoring striker who can be a target man. They need some height.
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Guardiola built this system with Messi in the center. I guess in hindsight this was always going to happen and Guardiola's not around to carry the can for it.

Buying a world class DMC in Mascherano and playing him as a centerback is one of the worst decisions any football club's made.

Barca need a keeper, a centerback and a striker and to re-shuffle their formation a little. Xavi can be replaced by Cesc in midfield, I think. He's also more direct and that'll help with the reinvention.


Don't think Barca have too many problems -- most of them are of their own making.
 
zing said:
Guardiola built this system with Messi in the center. I guess in hindsight this was always going to happen and Guardiola's not around to carry the can for it.

Buying a world class DMC in Mascherano and playing him as a centerback is one of the worst decisions any football club's made.

Barca need a keeper, a centerback and a striker and to re-shuffle their formation a little. Xavi can be replaced by Cesc in midfield, I think. He's also more direct and that'll help with the reinvention.


Don't think Barca have too many problems -- most of them are of their own making.
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Not nearly as bad as signing a midtable manager and letting him have a free reign...
 
So, what's happened to him? He looks a different player of late to the guy who's been ripping teams apart for years. Defenders are beating him one on one at times, they're getting a toe in where he wouldn't have given me a chance before and he just generally looks a bit depressed and low on energy to me. Is this all due to saving himself for the World Cup or has he lost form big time(compared to his standards)?
 
amolbhatia100 said:
So, what's happened to him? He looks a different player of late to the guy who's been ripping teams apart for years. Defenders are beating him one on one at times, they're getting a toe in where he wouldn't have given me a chance before and he just generally looks a bit depressed and low on energy to me. Is this all due to saving himself for the World Cup or has he lost form big time(compared to his standards)?
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His form since coming from injury has been brilliant, he was just rubbish against Atleti.
 
So the guy hired as manager, based on Messi's recommendation isn't very good? What happens if they tried to replace him now?
 
MDFC Manager said:
So the guy hired as manager, based on Messi's recommendation isn't very good? What happens if they tried to replace him now?
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Easy, Messi as a player-manager! I really don't know who they will go for in the summer, it does look like they won't continue with him. In fairness, Martino started well in the league but I guess coping with the different demands that come with being a manager of Barcelona and having no experience as a manager in Europe caught up to him finally. Well, that and the fact that their team needs refreshing. Can't believe they've gone through the season without signing a CB, never mind other areas of the pitch. This summer is probably their most important in recent years, if they manage to do something about that ban that is.

As for Messi, he hasn't been at his best in some games but his form after coming back from injury has been good. It's puzzling as in some games it looks like he can't be bothered. I do wonder if he really is saving himself for the WC.
 
MDFC Manager said:
So the guy hired as manager, based on Messi's recommendation isn't very good? What happens if they tried to replace him now?
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Messi's recommendation? That's just gossip based on where they're from and his dad knowing him. There's not really any reason to believe that.
 
Blasphemy said:
His form since coming from injury has been brilliant, he was just rubbish against Atleti.
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It hasn't. He's been inconsistent, very inconsistent by his standards. He launched a couple of rescue missions for them in La Liga, but was as much to blame as any of them for the points lost against Valencia, Real Sociedad, and Levante. In the past few weeks he's scored a lot of goals but most of them have been from the penalty spot.

But yes, it's the Atletico games where he's had the most problems. Simeone's team seem to know how to stop him and in the process stop Barcelona. Real Madrid play a different game, much more open, much riskier and he's enjoyed that more - it'll be interesting to see what Ancelotti tries in the Copa. I'm sure Messi and the Barca team will be up for it.
 
Pink Moon said:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I struggle to see what the basis is for such an opinion considering it's clear that Messi is a superior passer, creator, dribbler, has a better first touch, has greater technical attributes etc. They're both incredible goalscorers and I could see an argument for Ronaldo being more versatile in how he gets his goals but I'll always be stumped how anyone can come to the conclusion that he's actually a "better" footballer.

Messi is playing for a team that is on a serious decline and has Javier Mascherano as a starting centre back. Let that sink in...
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Come now, that's a fairly disingenuous explanation on your part. Having Mascherano at CB didn't prevent Barça from winning the CL and 2 league titles in the last three seasons. Of course their defensive issues are coming back to haunt them, but that's because the attacking players aren't capable of covering for them any longer like they have for the past two seasons.

The intriguing thing is that the team has only in the 2nd half of the season started to feel the effects of the tactical shift under Martino. In the 1st half of the season they were very good, but in the last couple of months it's all started to catch up with them. Messi himself has been inconsistent since returning from injury, but the one constant has been the decline in his shot conversion% (basically his clinicalness when finishing) which might have been what papered over the cracks last season. Tata Martino's recent comments after the Atlético 2nd leg, (I'm paraphrasing here), about him not wanting(needing?) Messi in the build-up, are at the heart of the issue IMO. Messi has ALWAYS been a creator first and a finisher second in my eyes. The former is innate in him, the latter hinges far more on his team and his confidence (even in his best seasons). In recent games Messi has cut an isolated figure up front, against Granada he was acting like a traditional nine, trying to get on the end of crosses. It's possible (and maybe even likely) that Martino said what he said because he wanted to protect his player from criticism, but since the last Clásico, Messi has noticeably been struggling to get involved in games (in the losses to Valencia and La Real he was a lot more involved in play). Partially of his own making, his dribbling and passing have been inconsistent for example and off the ball he's almost a non-entity at times, waiting for service and that's just not his game.

I can only speculate, but it seems to me a mix of him being low on confidence, mentally not at 100% (in the sense of him not wanting to risk his fitness for the WC perhaps?), wider issues like Martino's tactics, the general process of decline (which has been going on since 2011, imo), DF/MF base instability having a negative effect on the FWs, poor squad depth and poor squad management, etc.
 
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It's also the first manager who is moving him "out of position" for years, and one who substituted him few times earlier in the season, I don't think he is really "Messi's guy".

fishfingers15 said:
Sorry, Ronaldo's not my hero. Messi's not my enemy. I didn't see him play in the last two matches. It's the views of a Barcelona fan, so you have to ask him.
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Sorry, I thought that was your opinion. You need to use comma in that first sentence in your post then. Anyway, strange bump if you didn't see the game game.
 
jojojo said:
It hasn't. He's been inconsistent, very inconsistent by his standards. He launched a couple of rescue missions for them in La Liga, but was as much to blame as any of them for the points lost against Valencia, Real Sociedad, and Levante. In the past few weeks he's scored a lot of goals but most of them have been from the penalty spot.

But yes, it's the Atletico games where he's had the most problems. Simeone's team seem to know how to stop him and in the process stop Barcelona. Real Madrid play a different game, much more open, much riskier and he's enjoyed that more - it'll be interesting to see what Ancelotti tries in the Copa. I'm sure Messi and the Barca team will be up for it.
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You are broadly right in what you say there, and while I don't want to take away from Simeone and Atleti too much, Messi has been between mediocre (first leg) and atrocious (second leg) against them. I mean, both Iniesta and Neymar - who as great as they are, are not at Messi's level - had brilliant moments against them, Iniesta in the first leg, Neymar over both legs. Messi on the other hand, other than a great move and pass for Iniesta in the first leg did absolutely nothing at all. You may say that Messi is more tightly marked by opposing teams than any other player in the world, but his lack of form, passion and energy in recent months for Barcelona has been striking. This is the first time that I can ever remember that Catalan newspapers and Barca fans in general are openly accusing Messi. And very rightly so in my opinion.
 
Blasphemy said:
His form since coming from injury has been brilliant, he was just rubbish against Atleti.
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He has been brilliant indeed... from time to time. In fact less than the times he's been average, which is unprecedented with Messi imo.

For me this is the first season since Cristiano came to RM that you could say he's comfortably been better than Messi in almost every aspect, performance-wise, apart from in the games they've faced each other, ironically.
 
Last night it looked as though they ran out of ideas, really poor performance.

Messi looked predictable, there was no clever passes or them one- twos they do around the box and tear teams apart. I think that might be down to a lack of pace in the passing. They moved the ball so slowly, very easy for the opposition to sit back into a solid shape and not get drawn out.

They need a reshuffle tactically, maybe Messi out wide and signing a top striker might be the way forward for them. Or play Messi as an orthodox number 10 and get hold of top striker.
 
Skorenzy said:
Come now, that's a fairly disingenuous explanation on your part. Having Mascherano at CB didn't prevent Barça from winning the CL and 2 league titles in the last three seasons. Of course their defensive issues are coming back to haunt them, but that's because the attacking players aren't capable of covering for them any longer like they have for the past two seasons.

The intriguing thing is that the team has only in the 2nd half of the season started to feel the effects of the tactical shift under Martino. In the 1st half of the season they were very good, but in the last couple of months it's all started to catch up with them. Messi himself has been inconsistent since returning from injury, but the one constant has been the decline in his shot conversion% (basically his clinicalness when finishing) which might have been what papered over the cracks last season. Tata Martino's recent comments after the Atlético 2nd leg, (I'm paraphrasing here), about him not wanting(needing?) Messi in the build-up, are at the heart of the issue IMO. Messi has ALWAYS been a creator first and a finisher second in my eyes. The former is innate in him, the latter hinges far more on his team and his confidence (even in his best seasons). In recent games Messi has cut an isolated figure up front, against Granada he was acting like a traditional nine, trying to get on the end of crosses. It's possible (and maybe even likely) that Martino said what he said because he wanted to protect his player from criticism, but since the last Clásico, Messi has noticeably been struggling to get involved in games (in the losses to Valencia and La Real he was a lot more involved in play). Partially of his own making, his dribbling and passing have been inconsistent for example and off the ball he's almost a non-entity at times, waiting for service and that's just not his game.

I can only speculate, but it seems to me a mix of him being low on confidence, mentally not at 100% (in the sense of him not wanting to risk his fitness for the WC perhaps?), wider issues like Martino's tactics, the general process of decline (which has been going on since 2011, imo), DF/MF base instability having a negative effect on the FWs, poor squad depth and poor squad management, etc.
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Your last paragraph I agree with 100%. I wasn't blaming Mascherano for Messi not playing well but it's certainly a major contributing factor as to why Barcelona aren't playing well. Not just Mascherano though, the entire defence is a shambles.

I doubt he's low on confidence in himself but rather his teammates. Martino's tactics, yeah, probably.
 
fishfingers15 said:
I don't know Malappapper thinks so, the last two displays have been the worst professional performances for any player his caliber. Also, pick a story line. Either Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas are all incredibly talented or incredibly shit. :D
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They're world class players but world class players don't necessarily make a world class team. Look at how deadly Barcelona were under Guardiola pre-Fabregas, for example. Not blaming Fabregas but I don't think you can cram him, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets into the one team. All that they offer are far too similar.
 
But...but...but... I thought Barcelona were *still* the bestest team ever?!

The abuse I took when I made the 'Decline of Barcelona' thread looks very misplaced now...
 
Pink Moon said:
They're world class players but world class players don't necessarily make a world class team. Look at how deadly Barcelona were under Guardiola pre-Fabregas, for example. Not blaming Fabregas but I don't think you can cram him, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets into the one team. All that they offer are far too similar.
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Not really... they all have very different skill sets and roles in the MF, but the issue then becomes that they have basically only one player looking for the ball in space instead of into feet.
 
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