People were saying that it would be an abomination if Ronaldo didn't win it this year, so I think you are going OTT, but good night
Lionel Messi
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People were saying that it would be an abomination if Ronaldo didn't win it this year, so I think you are going OTT, but good night
With the 3 goals he becomes the topscorer for El Clasicos.
Messi could play as a CM and he'd be devastating because his vision and passing is ridiculous. He is a Playstation player.
How many European cups did Pele win ?
Pele won two Libertadores at a time when it was probably a stronger competition than the European Cup.
Well 'undisputed' GOAT was a bit of an exaggeration admittedly, even though it was in my opinion.
Mainly, Pele's club career brings him down imo. I'm not too clued up on the ins and outs of Brazilian club football in the late 50s-early 70s, but wasnt it the case that the league only came into existence in the 60s or something? Anyway, Maradona won two serie A titles with Napoli, and Messi won a hatful of titles with Barcelona, including 3 Champions Leagues(and with years to add to that tally).
It's not being touchy. It's just a bit daft to say "his stats were great but besides that..."
Edit: No problem with your comments regarding Iniesta and Busquets though. Iniesta was great and I always appreciate Busquets getting the praise he deserves!
He never played in Europe, but it doesn't matter, he gave the European defenders a beating every time they played Santos or came across Brazil in the World Cup.
The greatest ever, some feckin' penalties tonight.
Back to back hat trick. Been in unreal form since the turn of the year. Ronaldo winning the Ballon D'or might just have revitalized him a little bit, along with finally getting a little rest while he was recovering from his injury.
Funny how some people were arguing Suarez was up there with Ronaldo and Messi this season
Not a patch on either, nobody is.
Funny how some people were arguing Suarez was up there with Ronaldo and Messi this season
Not a patch on either, nobody is.pele played for santos from 1957 till 1974, during that period pele's santos won two libertadores cup
independiente from argentina won 5 libertadores cups
estudiantes de la plata from argentina won 3 libertadores cups
and peñarol from uruguay won 3 libertadores cups
that puts some perspective on pele's achievements
Hey marcos you old geezer what's up, haven't seen you around in a long time!
Santos also got a bye to the Semi-Final on that 2nd one they won, so that takes even more gloss off of it... He still dominated those two tourneys though, and didn't Brazilian teams refuse to participate after that due to the violence from the Argentines and Uruguayans?
Anyway, I can't see how anyone can reasonably claim Messi to already be at Pelé or Maradona level... he still has a lot of things to achieve first, IMO.
Fair enough, but that's exactly what I'm trying to allude to . the difficulty of the different competitions at different times. For example, the world cup is the most prestigious tournament in football, but it's not the toughest. You play 7 matches to win the world cup , 2 or 3 of them are against below average teams.
Compare that to the champions league where you play 13, at least 5 of them are against the biggest clubs on the world stage.
I'm not ever sure how did the world cup of 50 years ago compare to today's style of football at the CL, world cup or even the top European leagues. I believe current tournaments are much harder.
So just some numbers on Messi then, after tonight.
His record against Real Madrid (in all competitions): 21 goals and 12 assists in 27 appearances. He's now both all-time leader in goals ánd assists in El Clásico.
His favourite "victims" in all competitions:
- Real Madrid, 21 goals
- Atlético Madrid, 20 goals
- Osasuna, 19 goals
- Sevilla, 18 goals
- Valencia, 15 goals
Most away goals against:
- Real Madrid, 12 goals
- Atlético Madrid, 8 goals
- Racing/Mallorca/Zaragoza/Getafe, 7 goals
His record against Real Madrid (in all competitions): 21 goals and 12 assists in 27 appearances. He's now both all-time leader in goals ánd assists in El Clásico.
His favourite "victims" in all competitions:
- Real Madrid, 21 goals
- Atlético Madrid, 20 goals
- Osasuna, 19 goals
- Sevilla, 18 goals
- Valencia, 15 goals
Most away goals against:
- Real Madrid, 12 goals
- Atlético Madrid, 8 goals
- Racing/Mallorca/Zaragoza/Getafe, 7 goals
Hey marcos you old geezer what's up, haven't seen you around in a long time!
Santos also got a bye to the Semi-Final on that 2nd one they won, so that takes even more gloss off of it... He still dominated those two tourneys though, and didn't Brazilian teams refuse to participate after that due to the violence from the Argentines and Uruguayans?
Anyway, I can't see how anyone can reasonably claim Messi to already be at Pelé or Maradona level... he still has a lot of things to achieve first, IMO.
hey mate
well, according to wikipedia, brazilian teams, in those years didnt participate in three of the 15 tournaments, so that's not exactly a reason to winning only two cups, and, the teams playing where a lot less than now
here'es the link
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores_de_América
well is in spanish, sorry
Rossa
They had to re-open the voting for Ronaldo to win, what I have realised is that people comment a lot without any real context. Fans bought into the 'Ronaldo best in the world' hype, it was due to him being flavour of the month while Messi was out injured. Over the course of last year Messi was better. Tonight Messi played well, he was a real handful for Real and played two amazing passes for Neymar.
Di Maria was Real's best player, Iniesta was majestic and Busquets set the tone doing what he does best. Benzema wasted too many chances he should have had 3 or 4.
They had to re-open the voting for Ronaldo to win, what I have realised is that people comment a lot without any real context. Fans bought into the 'Ronaldo best in the world' hype, it was due to him being flavour of the month while Messi was out injured. Over the course of last year Messi was better. Tonight Messi played well, he was a real handful for Real and played two amazing passes for Neymar.
Di Maria was Real's best player, Iniesta was majestic and Busquets set the tone doing what he does best. Benzema wasted too many chances he should have had 3 or 4.
people say all sorts of weird exaggerated shit, all opinions. messi outscored ronaldo by 12 goals in the league alone, playing 2 less games, nobody cares about that? ronaldo had an exceptional may to december period of form, but even against his previous years form, and messi's form of seasons past, was it exceptional? absolutely not.People were saying that it would be an abomination if Ronaldo didn't win it this year, so I think you are going OTT, but good night
people got extremely carried away with hype just because messi was injured and there wasn't the usual closeness between the two in terms of production. even then, suarez pretty much matched ronaldo's scoring rate or bettered it at times.
i actually thought iniesta was a little careless today, he made a few turnovers or poorly chosen passes that you wouldn't expect out of him. he was genius as usual with his shimmying dribbles, but messi was more directly influential in attacks then iniesta. I felt iniesta wasn't standing out very much in the midfield honestly. busquets performance today was a step up from his dissapointing form this season, and that was pretty important, and fabregas wasn't bad at times today either.
There is a massive gulf between Messi and Iniesta. Both help their team dominate the other but that's useless without providing the end product. Dunno what it is about Iniesta, he just never rakes up the number of assists one would think he should.
Is there any particular reason why people have stopped posting gifs and videos of Messi's goals and nice bits of play in this thread?
I know I can find them elsewhere on the internet, but I always liked being able to pop into this thread to see his latest piece of genius.
I know I can find them elsewhere on the internet, but I always liked being able to pop into this thread to see his latest piece of genius.
i guess people get oversaturated by messi. too many goals, it makes it all seem a bit too expected. I'm of the same opinion as you though, the more the merrier from this genius.
good balance when he ran into ramos, great pass to neymar, and a predatory follow up.
excellent dribbling to drive into the middle, slaloming around 2-3 players, and his weighting of the pass to iniesta will be underrated i think, it's hit perfectly, enough to be impossible for carvajal to stop, but not too much that iniesta will have to stretch or struggle to contol it, it's a perfect pass into stride. nothing out of this world for messi, but a very crisp, and technically masterful pass.
Because he's too good to watch your head might explode
We should just create and merge the Ronaldo and Messi thread, you can't discuss one without the other.
And IMHO, they have both surpassed the Maradona/Pele skillwise, it's just that you can't help it when Maradonna win things on his own, something a football player in this era will not have a chance to do. In our era, good players = expensive players = playing for the best teams, and they're gonna be hardly the only good player in the squad.
Unless Messi / Ronaldo goes to midtable clubs, we will never get that myth broken about Maradona
And IMHO, they have both surpassed the Maradona/Pele skillwise, it's just that you can't help it when Maradonna win things on his own, something a football player in this era will not have a chance to do. In our era, good players = expensive players = playing for the best teams, and they're gonna be hardly the only good player in the squad.
Unless Messi / Ronaldo goes to midtable clubs, we will never get that myth broken about Maradona
What myth?
Is this a joke? Ronaldo is playing for the constant underdog Portugal and he has had an alright NT career already with a fourth place finish for a small country. Messi is playing for an already top team in Argentina and he hasn't won anything of significance in his NT career.
Maradona of course did the impossible feat of taking a club to extreme heights - something that is impossible these days to that extent. But Maradona and Pele's NT record is just on a completely different level to what Ronaldo and Messi has performed so far.
Yeah but that's really unfair, no?
Even if Messi goes and joins say Udinese or something (mental to ask him to do that just to prove he can replicate Maradona's greatness) there will be arguments like Serie A in the 80s was so much stronger with the world's best players playing in that. Now what do people want? Baresi and Rijkaard to enter a time machine and come back so that Messi can show he can do the same thing Maradona did? It's mental.
If you ask me, Maradona was completely different to Messi in what he expected from himself. Messi expects complete and flawless excellence from himself. He's a complete machine, more like Pele than Maradona. For him, every pass, every touch must be perfect or it's a bad day in the office. Whereas Maradona was much more of a romantic, he didn't care if he took risks that ended up giving the ball away or whatever, he just wanted to go to a place where everyone would love him and expect him to raise everyone around him. He did that at Napoli, sure, but that's mainly because he made that choice himself, and it should never be mandatory for anyone else to do the same just to prove he's great.
And while Barca last season was not a weak team by any stretch of imagination, it completely busted the myth that Messi cannot perform without Xavi and Iniesta controlling the game and feeding him the service. He carried them to the league title with a record points total, with the manager being in unfortunate health circumstances, he himself had fitness issues, the team not coping as well as they hoped after Pep's departure and what not. He's already played many games where the whole didn't work as well as Barca usually does but he with his individual brilliance and intelligence completely took hold of the game and influenced it not just with goals or assists but basically carrying out most attacks.
The WC is what will elevate Messi to the all top 3 and distance it from the likes of Cruyff, Di Stefano, etc who will being every bit as good as the current top 2, don't have the same reputation due to lack of World Cups or International achievements otherwise. Nothing can match the legacy a WC provides, more so when you are the one who provided the heroics to win it, which is something Messi would need to do if Argentine want to have any chance. But if he carries Argentina to a WC win, that too in Brazil, that would simply seal it. For the public that is, in my mind there is no doubt that technically he's every bit as good as Maradona.
Barca were not controlling games last season? They still got to play the possession game they want. Even an off color Xavi, Iniesta and Biscuits provide Messi the platform he needs, as does the whole Barca philosophy. Messi is possibly better than Diego but it is undeniable that throughout his career he has had the best platform to perform.
I hope Barca meet Bayern this season. That will be the true test for Messi. Bayern are better now but Messi does have it in him to provide Barca that edge to go past them. Then there is the WC ofcourse. He simply has to perform there. This is not a George best type situation who never got the chance to lit up that tournament. Messi is getting one and if he blows it, it will be counted against him.
And yeah if Messi does not come across defensive monsters like Mathaus, Rjjkard, Baresi in his career, that won't count against but it will count in favour of Maradona. It may not be fair but nothing is.
I hope Barca meet Bayern this season. That will be the true test for Messi. Bayern are better now but Messi does have it in him to provide Barca that edge to go past them. Then there is the WC ofcourse. He simply has to perform there. This is not a George best type situation who never got the chance to lit up that tournament. Messi is getting one and if he blows it, it will be counted against him.
And yeah if Messi does not come across defensive monsters like Mathaus, Rjjkard, Baresi in his career, that won't count against but it will count in favour of Maradona. It may not be fair but nothing is.
In regards to the last point, surely Messi's vastly superior goal and assist output would account for the inferior defenders he's faced.
Controlling possession is just one thing, with Xavi's decline and Pep's departure, they weren't the same force that could turn possession into chaos in the opposition box regularly.
The biggest difference was Pep. With him, the team would never let the intensity drop even for a minute it was never the same once he left. Tito did well before his illness but it was pretty obvious that there was a lot more burden on Messi to not just score but carry out the attacks.
As for them meeting Bayern this season, they can bring back a peak Maradona but they will still lose. Martino is out of his depth against a manager like Pep, or even Mourinho. Pep knows how to rally his teams for big occasions, has a bigger squad than he ever had at Barca and is tactically immensely superior to Tata and it will show in the game.
Well that's a cause of it. So I am not sure how it circumvents the original problem.
He's just fecking awesome, involved in all 4 goals. He's been better than Ronaldo since their careers started and he'll probably end up with more goals, assists, titles and personal honors than him. Ronaldo is unlucky to have been playing in the same era as Messi.
I don't think Barca will need a manger to get then up for a big match against Bayern. Chelsea got to a CL final without one for starters and won a CL with another amateur one. So that's just seems like a ready made excuse. Messi would by far be the best player on the pitch against Bayern and he has to make it count if he wants to be in top 3 tier.
I don't agree with burden on Messi part either. I think he wanted it that way to gobble up big numbers.
Nah. He still won 2 Ballon'dor in his era and will be forever remember as Messi's sort of nemesis. To be a competitor with possibly the best of all time is a good place to be.
Yeah sorry I misread what you wrote. I'm hungover.
We can't compare like that can we? Chelsea needed tremendous luck, penalty misses from the opposition on multiple occasions and what not to scrape through. They are easily the worst CL winners in my memory, no one comes close, not even Liverpool in 05.
As for Barca, this season they have been quite mellow in their performance and it's completely down to Martino. He seems to ask his players play more down the flanks than through the middle and has left them look dire a lot of times. It works in La Liga but not against a tactical beast like Pep, no way absolutely. It's not an excuse, really, the manager obviously plays a huge part, specially in big games unless you want to put 10 men behind the ball have no plan whatsoever. What you are asking of Messi is unrealistic, and any player in the history of the game can come in his place and it will be unrealistic. That's not to say it is impossible, but judging him if he fails to score a hat trick or create 10 clear cut chances with the best team in the world with the best manager and best squad in the world smells more of an agenda against him.
Completely disagree on the last line as well, if he cared about numbers he wouldn't be fluffing around the half way line putting in defense splitting through balls for pedros and sanchez and what not to feck up. He could just play as a number 9 in that case and would have scored more than he did. Anyone who puts himself ahead of the team would instantly fail in the philosophy at Barca, that comes with the system.
myth probably was a wrong choice of word.
But whatever Messi did will never be enough because he never won it on his own with his napoli.
Barca being weak due to Martino is the point though. You were going on about motivation that's why I brought up Chelsea. They may have been bad but did not lack in motivation. There is no excuse for Messi's Barca to be short on motivation against Bayern. Infact seeing Pep on the other side should give them something extra to fight for. They surely did not lack any today.
The point about Maradona was that he was able to elevate an above average team against very good teams. Why can't Messi do the same for current Barca against Bayern? If anything it should be easier.
I don't think people care about Napoli, it was about the WC
Why "nah" ? It's not like I said anything outrageous, just imagine how many personal honors Ronaldo would have had by now if Messi didn't exist. Ronaldo will never be satisfied with being his competitor and inferior player. It must frustrate him.
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