Lionel Messi

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Claymore said:
He'd certainly get kicked a lot more too and the rolling about doesn't work as well here.
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sounds to me like you've never watched messi. don't take that the wrong way, it's a genuine curiosity for me that you'd list these things, when considering things messi has to adapt.

Until he moves we won't know
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exactly, this is all speculation. but to doubt a player that is a few goals away from being the all time champions league goal scorer, a player that has shreded the top teams in england over the years....
there's the possibility of a stupid hypothesis to an unproven query.

i think listing stoke, wet nights, rolling around? getting kicked? as things which would be considerable challenges, or points of adaptations, to messi, is nothing more then a bit of humour, but if it's a serious question, it's laughable. there are factors that can definitely be alienating, or intangibles which may not align, he might struggle with the culture, he might struggle with motivation, his new team might not have the means to utilise him pragmatically, but anything other then along those types of factors, there aren't any real serious concerns to me. you can say differently, but i'll definitely disagree.
 
Claymore said:
What's the difference between those who reckon he'd struggle in the wet at Stoke to those who believe he's 100% certain to succeed in the PL?

Myself I reckon he'd do well and would love to see him here but its not a given is it, nor is it just about the weather, it would be a complete change for him, language, food, culture, weather, team style the lot. He'd certainly get kicked a lot more too and the rolling about doesn't work as well here. Until he moves we won't know and there examples of La Liga players who've gone either way, for most leagues in fact.
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:lol: It certainly seems to work with refs in the PL who get fooled by diving every weekend. Messi is among the players who gets the most tackled in Spain and receives a harsh treatment from defenders and midfielders in almost every game. In comparison to what he receives, his reactions to them have been spot on. You clearly have a pre conceived idea of the football in Spain.
 
Messi play against Stoke? He'd murder them. He has no problem with cold wet nights or carthorses with clogs on who try to kick him. At worst he'll get a chance from one of the freekicks they'll give away.

The intriguing question would be could he play for them and with the concentration of money in the top clubs, that's something we'll never know. There wouldn't be the equivalent of the Maradona - Naples romance now (though Naples themselves are now in/around the top 20 richest football clubs in the world) But I would love to see him play outside his comfort zone, the club he grew up in.

Sadly these days there are only a handful of clubs who could even open a negotiation and if it was PSG or Bayern for example, all it would really do is reinforce an already massive dominance by those teams - not as much of a challenge as La Liga in fact. Italian clubs aren't rich enough at the moment. Which leaves the PL - imagine City + Messi, or Chelsea + Messi - can you really imagine them struggling on a cold wet night in almost anywhere?
 
I still wake up every morning, logging on to the Caf in the hope of reading a "Messi dreams of playing for United or Moyes" headline :drool:

...then I'm hurled back to reality when I see the Valencia/Moyes/Young/Bebe threads being bumped.
 
Malva said:
exactly, this is all speculation. but to doubt a player that is a few goals away from being the all time champions league goal scorer, a player that has shreded the top teams in england over the years....
there's the possibility of a stupid hypothesis to an unproven query.

i think listing stoke, wet nights, rolling around? getting kicked? as things which would be considerable challenges, or points of adaptations, to messi, is nothing more then a bit of humour, but if it's a serious question, it's laughable. there are factors that can definitely be alienating, or intangibles which may not align, he might struggle with the culture, he might struggle with motivation, his new team might not have the means to utilise him pragmatically, but anything other then along those types of factors, there aren't any real serious concerns to me. you can say differently, but i'll definitely disagree.
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These are all fair points, but I would like to see what he could do without the freakishly good supporting cast that he has at Barcelona. His record for Argentina is no where close to being as good... I am not saying he wouldn't be world class if he played for Chelsea or United, but I am not sure he would be scoring a goal per game.
 
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Hound Dog said:
These are all fair points, but I would like to see what he could do without the freakishly good supporting cast that he has at Barcelona. His record for Argentina is no where close to being as good... I am not saying he wouldn't be world class if he played for Chelsea or United, but I am not sure he would be scoring a goal per game.
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his record isn't that great, but it's about the same as ronaldo's and van persies and all these other superstars, and most importantly, if you watch him at argentina, you'd know that he's by far and large the best player, aguero, higuain, di maria, cambiasso, have all been made ineffectual, mediocre players by the atrocious managers of argentina from the past 5 years, yet messi scored 12 goals in a year for argentina, a national team record? and beyond goals, messi isn't even a forward for argentina, he plays much deeper the majority of the time as a playmaker that has to deal with 3-4 players intent on fouling him out of the game, where messi will have to recieve the ball, beat multiple players, and thread a pass for a teammate to score.

In this role, i think he's been outstanding. even going out so early in the copa mundail 2011, messi was the mvp of the tournament to me, he was outstanding against every team, and put numerous passes and goals on plates for higuain and aguero to finish, where the two strikers were quite poor and dissapointing in their finishing that tournament, tevez flopping quite heavily even.

theres a myth about messi and the national team, that leo becomes awful and mediocre with the national team, but this isn't remotely true, he is their talisman and he simply plays in a different way, in a role that the argentina national team heavily leans on him to be successful. messi is a brilliant dribbler and passer still with the national team, it's not his fault he doesn't score the passes that HE makes.
 
Claymore said:
That's exactly what I say too, stuffed if I'm going to say "lee on nel Messi" Lionel. Think too many people get too into foreign names and stuff, even saw someone on here, Redcafe an English speaking forum put "Cote D' Ivoire" or whatever it is for a thread on them at the world cup. Convinced they just wanted to show off, I mean we don't go around putting Deutshland on here do we. Lionel just like Ritchie, for me!

Anything else more than once is just too much Robot Wars commentator or Matt Smith on Itv "Fernando Doh res" :lol: Don't work with an Lionel's but if I did, living in England, I'd not be calling him Lee on nell that's for sure. Same rule applies for Dirk 'kite' kowt, Corzorlla/Cathorler and all the rest of it. Each to their own though.
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What does that even mean? He identifies himself as Lee-on-el so why would you call him something different? If you went up to him and called him Lie-on-el you'd just be calling him the wrong name. It'd be like referring to some guy named Michael as Michelle for no reason at all.
 
Malva said:
theres a myth about messi and the national team, that leo becomes awful and mediocre with the national team, but this isn't remotely true, he is their talisman and he simply plays in a different way, in a role that the argentina national team heavily leans on him to be successful. messi is a brilliant dribbler and passer still with the national team, it's not his fault he doesn't score the passes that HE makes.
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I agree with everything you wrote, and I know more about Messi for Argentina than you seem to think.

My point was pretty clear - I did not say he would be awful playing for another team, I just wondered if he would be the "goal per game" player he is at Barcelona. I mentioned Argentina, as they are the only team he ever played for other than Barcelona.

For what it's worth, I think that neither Messi nor Ronaldo are as superior to everyone else as their scoring records suggest, and think that they would struggle to match their numbers playing for any other team bar Bayers.

I obviously have no way of proving this, as they are both unlikely to ever again play for a different club.
 
Hound Dog said:
I agree with everything you wrote, and I know more about Messi for Argentina than you seem to think.

My point was pretty clear - I did not say he would be awful playing for another team, I just wondered if he would be the "goal per game" player he is at Barcelona. I mentioned Argentina, as they are the only team he ever played for other than Barcelona.

For what it's worth, I think that neither Messi nor Ronaldo are as superior to everyone else as their scoring records suggest, and think that they would struggle to match their numbers playing for any other team bar Bayers.

I obviously have no way of proving this, as they are both unlikely to ever again play for a different club.
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They might score less at another team, but their superior abilities are pretty obvious regardless how many goals they score.

Messi was already thought to be Maradona's real successor even before he was known for scoring goals. (He didn't score that many goals earlier in his career, and very few people thought that scoring will be an important dimension of his game. Still he was thought to be one of the best to have ever played the game, skill-wise).

And Ronaldo won his first Ballon D'Or with us, and it was much less contested than the one he won with Madrid..
 
Danny1982 said:
They might score less at another team, but their superior abilities are pretty obvious regardless how many goals they score.

Messi was already thought to be Maradona's real successor even before he was known for scoring goals. (He didn't score that many goals earlier in his career, and very few people thought that scoring will be an important dimension of his game. Still he was thought to be one of the best to have ever played the game, skill-wise).

And Ronaldo won his first Ballon D'Or with us, and it was much less contested than the one he won with Madrid..
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I never said they are not the best two players in the world, I just talked about their scoring records. There was nothing "between the lines", everything I wanted to say is in the post.
 
http://ecodiario.eleconomista.es/fu...z-la-venta-de-Leo-Messi.html#.Kku8wdHtn852TiK

I don't know how trustworthy this paper is, but they're saying some members of Barca are considering selling Messi. Apparently a combination of poor performances, seemingly lack of effort on the pitch and his constant demands for contract renewals. Article finishes by saying the likes of City or PSG have the funds to activate his release clause and Barca can use that money to rebuild the squad and fund a new stadium.
 
Claymore said:
That's exactly what I say too, stuffed if I'm going to say "lee on nel Messi" Lionel. Think too many people get too into foreign names and stuff, even saw someone on here, Redcafe an English speaking forum put "Cote D' Ivoire" or whatever it is for a thread on them at the world cup. Convinced they just wanted to show off, I mean we don't go around putting Deutshland on here do we. Lionel just like Ritchie, for me!

Anything else more than once is just too much Robot Wars commentator or Matt Smith on Itv "Fernando Doh res" :lol: Don't work with an Lionel's but if I did, living in England, I'd not be calling him Lee on nell that's for sure. Same rule applies for Dirk 'kite' kowt, Corzorlla/Cathorler and all the rest of it. Each to their own though.
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Don't tell me you're one of those "Terry Henry" wankers.
 
Mel_F said:
http://ecodiario.eleconomista.es/fu...z-la-venta-de-Leo-Messi.html#.Kku8wdHtn852TiK

I don't know how trustworthy this paper is, but they're saying some members of Barca are considering selling Messi. Apparently a combination of poor performances, seemingly lack of effort on the pitch and his constant demands for contract renewals. Article finishes by saying the likes of City or PSG have the funds to activate his release clause and Barca can use that money to rebuild the squad and fund a new stadium.
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Oh God I'd hate it if he went to one of the suggar daddy clubs. I'd hate it if he went anywhere (except us :D) to be honest though. Except Stoke. Stoke would be good for him.
 
Mel_F said:
http://ecodiario.eleconomista.es/fu...z-la-venta-de-Leo-Messi.html#.Kku8wdHtn852TiK

I don't know how trustworthy this paper is, but they're saying some members of Barca are considering selling Messi. Apparently a combination of poor performances, seemingly lack of effort on the pitch and his constant demands for contract renewals. Article finishes by saying the likes of City or PSG have the funds to activate his release clause and Barca can use that money to rebuild the squad and fund a new stadium.
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They'll know the gossip between Barca board members, and there's no doubt the press reports around this have increased steadily over the last few months. Why the gossip has been leaked to the press is the real question. Is it an experiment to see how the fans react? Is it softening the fanbase up, preparing them for a sale? Is it a warning shot to Messi and his dad in the contract negotiation?

In raw financial terms a sale could earn them €250m in transfer fees and save them over €250m in wages and bonuses. For some board members that will be tempting, and they would claim it was short term pain for long term gain. Enough money to buy a couple of new players and fund a big slice of the new stadium. If they can convince the fans that Barca's already had his best years and he's not going to get back to his best - I do think some of them are ready to sell.

Flipside is that if he's not 100% fit and he's gradually feeling his way back to his best, ready to lead Argentina to glory in the summer, then no board member is going to want his name linked directly to a sell him proposal, though Faus got close.
 
Barca would be mental to sell him. He's surely a Blaugrana for life.

Barca just look tired to me these days. As fergie always said, football goes in cycles. This team in is it's last throes of greatness before a rebuild is required. To be fair to them, they have been perhaps the best team I've ever seen over the last 5 years. Immense. But Messi looks jaded, Iniesta isn't playing in his preferred midfield position and generally looks out of sorts. Xavi has lost a step or two. Puyol is on his last legs and way out, Valdes is leaving, Alves is inconsistent and showing signs of age.

Needs a refresher. Too much stupid drama off the field.
 
simonhch said:
Barca would be mental to sell him. He's surely a Blaugrana for life.
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He's good, but if they got offered crazy money selling him could potentially benefit the team. I'm probably in the minority, but I'd probably take Cavani plus Thiago Silva over Messi. Throw a Kroos or Gundogan in too and I think they'd definitely be a better team than they would be if they kept him. It's not as though they don't have other talented attackers either.

I imagine that he willl remain a top player for years to come, but I think he's probably peaked already. To be fair though, it was some peak.
 
i was getting disheartened with messi's physical form, but watching the last 3-4 games, he's actually been very very good, in the national team against romania, superb. it's crucial that he takes his time to fully condition himself. his technique is all still there, and he's showing signs of getting back to that 2011 form.
 
Barca selling Messi :lol:

Messi will only leave there when he's about mid 30's and will fancy going back to Newells for a retirement season.
 
Could anyone realistically afford him? Of course, City or PSG would, but surely they would not be able to meet the FFP criteria if they sign him?

I know that FFP is not being implemented the way it should, but surely not even dodgy sponsorship deals can fund a 150m+ transfer?
 
Isn't it obvious? Messi does not want to risk missing the WC. So he is not playing at full throttle. He has won the lot with Barca and will get more chances to in future. WC is much harder to win given you only get so many chances.
 
Hound Dog said:
Could anyone realistically afford him? Of course, City or PSG would, but surely they would not be able to meet the FFP criteria if they sign him?

I know that FFP is not being implemented the way it should, but surely not even dodgy sponsorship deals can fund a 150m+ transfer?
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I imagine the transfer would be amortised over a few years instead of paying in one lump sum.
 
Archie Leach said:
He's had one below par season that's been a result of injury, a bit early to say he's peaked.
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I guess, just reckon that the injuries he keeps picking up will take their toll. Despite all the goals over the last couple of years, I still think his form's been declining a bit.

It's really not meant as a criticism, I just think the standard he set a couple of years ago is unattainable, even for himself. He's still arguably the best player in the world.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
I guess, just reckon that the injuries he keeps picking up will take their toll. Despite all the goals over the last couple of years, I still think his form's been declining a bit.

It's really not meant as a criticism, I just think the standard he set a couple of years ago is unattainable, even for himself. He's still arguably the best player in the world.
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Hard to say. I think Messi will deal with a physical decline better than other superstars, and I think at 26 he's a few years off that anyway. A good run of games and improved performances from his teammates could see him steamrolling teams again. His record this year is still astounding by anyone else's measure.
 
City will probably offer them Aguero and eleventy-billion quid.
 
Archie Leach said:
Hard to say. I think Messi will deal with a physical decline better than other superstars, and I think at 26 he's a few years off that anyway. A good run of games and improved performances from his teammates could see him steamrolling teams again. His record this year is still astounding by anyone else's measure.
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All good points and I hope the steamrolling starts tomorrow. I do think that if he lost a bit of pace it would impact him a bit more than many people think though. That little burst of acceleration he uses to get away from defenders really is something else and a key part of what makes him so dangerous.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
All good points and I hope the steamrolling starts tomorrow. I do think that if he lost a bit of pace it would impact him a bit more than many people think though. That little burst of acceleration he uses to get away from defenders really is something else and a key part of what makes him so dangerous.
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I think when his pace begins to fall away he'll move back into midfield. He's arguably the best passer in the world and has all the qualities to be a terrific playmaker.
 
Messi probably the best player in the last century, he had gene therapy when he was younger because of a growth disorder, so years ago his injury to his thigh was to do with that, so he had to have a special training regime.

He's done very well obviously and he's an amazing player to watch, it's a shame that we don't have a player like him in the premier league, or that it would be some time before we see a player like him again.
 
Red Pavan said:
Thiago silva and Cavani instead of Messi.

What?
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Says more about how I rate Barca's defence more than anything else. I know he's a great player, I love watching him as much as anyone, but Barca aren't going to suddenly stop scoring goals and winning games without him.
 
Thing with Messi is he has too much to his games, his free kicks he seems to put away so often, and nobody compliments Messi on his free kicks, because his dribbling and shooting is so good.
 
what a game by him today, scorching. the energy he showed as he got more and more into the game, really suggests he's finally getting back to top form.
 
Greatest goal-scoring rivalry of all time as well, since Cristiano joined Real Madrid. 500 goals at club level between the two of them in a little under 5 years. Ridiculous.

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That first one was after a good 50 yard dash as well. He then proceeded to play his way around another Atlético player's press like it was nothing.



Whenever they come up against each other Messi seems determined to stop Agüero by himself. I remember a game back in '06 or '07 when they were both still teenagers where I think I saw the only sliding tackle ever performed by Messi, on Agüero of course, perfectly timed one too.
 
Been a while since I've seen Messi that good overall in a game, City couldn't do anything every time he got the ball. Just went past them at will.

Care_de_Bobo said:
He's good, but if they got offered crazy money selling him could potentially benefit the team. I'm probably in the minority, but I'd probably take Cavani plus Thiago Silva over Messi. Throw a Kroos or Gundogan in too and I think they'd definitely be a better team than they would be if they kept him. It's not as though they don't have other talented attackers either.

I imagine that he willl remain a top player for years to come, but I think he's probably peaked already. To be fair though, it was some peak.
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I'm sorry but :eek:
Never in a million years. Messi is one of the 2 players in the world who there is simply no price for, nobody you could trade for to make you stronger overall. No matter how many world class players you offer. You take Messi. Crazy to think he's only 26, having his worst season in a long time because of the long injury lay off but still has 28 goals and countless assists :lol:
 
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