Pointing to things in the past doesn't help your point. He's in danger of stagnating from now on IMO, that is cease developing or atleast cease developing at a rate that he could achieve elsewhere. A new challenge at a different club would prevent that, again IMO.
Lionel Messi
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Pointing to things in the past doesn't help your point. He's in danger of stagnating from now on IMO, that is cease developing or atleast cease developing at a rate that he could achieve elsewhere. A new challenge at a different club would prevent that, again IMO.
What if he wins a fifth Ballon D'Or this year?
Where could messi possibly move to? It's possibly the most impossible transfer ever.
It wouldn't surprise me, but it wouldn't neccessarily mean he has developed as a player as much as he would've with a new challenge at a new club. He so good now that even if he did stop developing he would still be favourite for all the awards, however, leaving for another club would mean he would have to continue developing and IMO he would become an even better player, helping his case to be goat along the way.
feck knows, I didn't work out the logistics. Like I said, me saying he should leave was just me indicating that I would like him to leave, I'd be very intrigued to see how he did elsewhere. I actually think he would be even more exciting than he is now.
What aspects of football do you think Messi can still develop ?
Hard to point out specifics but I'd like to see him develop the ability to play at his best within different systems. Perhaps he already has that ability but hasn't been given the right platform to demonstrate it, him leaving for another club would give him that platform.
Liking Leo to leave Barcelona wasn't my point nor his, you failed to read those posts thoroughly
Hard to pinpoint the weakest aspect of his argument, too many to choose from, honestly. Personally, the real lowpoint was either the 'He's stagnating' or 'Could shine brighter elsewhere'. It only really ever deserved the goofy gif for a response but Fergus couldn't accept how poor his comments were and just move on
Everyone is giving opinions here. Even yours right there is an opinion and there's nothing to fault with it. To, however, provide a laughable set of reasons for the basis of that opinion is absolutely asking to be lampooned
And you know, this isn't an issue of whether Leo is the greatest or not, to me. It was merely about the reasoning used by Fergus to support his opinion. He was better off just saying Leo should leave or that he'd like to see him elsewhere - the reasons he gave for it, however, revealed quite a bit about the poster
Develop to do what? Are you sure you know what you're talking about?!
He's developing every year with Barcelona, and eventually he will peak and decline (after leaving a virtually un-matchable heritage in Barcelona), but that's the cycle for every player, and has nothing to do with him leaving or staying..
Yeah I thought so..
I don't even know what the hell you're talking about after that.
I don't take this stuff so seriously so I wasn't sure who it was with the conspiracy stupidity. No idea when it was.
Pointing out absurd rawkish behavioro is rawkish? Erm, okay.
Why would Ronaldo become no.1 if messi left barca despite being a lesser player? He (messi) would still be the best around. I'd just like to see him in a different set up. If we're talking about agendas then I wouldn't mind messi and Ronaldo at mill wall and derby county if it makes our path to the cl easy.
I think it's two-fold for me. Anything that would make such a fierce opponent in the cl a bit weaker is good for us. And at the same time, it would very interesting to watch him elsewhere. I don't really like watching barca either so I'd probably enjoy watching him more too in addition to being able to see how he handles the new challenge. Obviously it would depend on where he went. I'd rather he stay at barca till the end of his career winning the ballon dor every single year rather than come to a premier league rival!
Dont see how its bitterness and jealousy. It would give some answers to some of the questions that are being asked in the "best player ever?" debate and it would put him out of his comfort zone a bit, which would be exciting imo.
I definitely wouldnt like to see him in England outside of United, because he is so good and it would probably seal the league for years for whichever side aquired him, but I would love seeing him in another team in Spain, Italy or Germany. Yes it would make Barca worse which is a bonus for every other team, its silly to deny that aspect, but it would be exciting to see such a great player ina different environment. I enjoy watching Messi for Argentina more than for Barcelona, because its more novel than watching the n'th match where he dominates for Barca.
Wouldnt it be nice for neutrals, Messi fanboys as well as doubters, to get a clear answer to statements such as "he would struggle to play as well without the quality he has around him at Barca"? I certainly would like to see it. It wont happen though, so it will forever be an unanswered point of doubt in the comparisons between him and Maradona.
I wasn't the one generalizing.. VP was the one who said that all people who want him to stay are Barca fanboys.. I merely pointed out to the possibility that wanting him to leave by some people might actually be motivated by things other than "neutrality" like bitterness, jealousy...etc.
Now if we're talking about what we'd prefer, it's just a matter of taste IMO.. There is no way I can force what I want to see on somebody else, or even say there is a correct or wrong opinion in this.. I like coffee, you like tea.
However, that's not what we're arguing with Fergus' son about..
Yep its opinion. I cba to read back but if Fergus' son said Messi should leave Barca if he wants to be regarded as the greatest then thats a bit black and white. By the end of his career Messi could very well have achieved things that set him apart from the other greats even if he stays at Barca throughout.
If he said he personally would like Messi to leave Barca for excitement purposes then thats again just opinion so not much point arguing over it.
If he said he personally would like Messi to leave Barca for excitement purposes then thats again just opinion so not much point arguing over it.
There's two perfectly good reasons to want to see Messi leave from what I can see. The first is that it might rejuvenate him in some way, it might give him an added spark that some feel has been lacking from his game recently. Breaking records and winning titles is a mere formality for him now so eventually that enthusiasm will begin to wane if it hasn't already started to. It's part of the reason the Ajax team broke up and Cruyff moved to Barca. Secondly we'd see whether Messi would adapt to another team's distinctly different style of play or whether he'd make the team build their game around him. Barcelona's style is unlikely to change any time soon and people would like to see how he'd adapt to playing in a different setup - it's part of the reason people care so much about what he does on the international stage. There are some people here that act like anyone that isn't Messi's #1 fan and doesn't adore the ground he walks on must have something against him.
Why?
He doesn't look like someone who lost any enthusiasm, and doesn't even look like he's gonna.. Some people don't "have to leave the club" to stay motivated, e.g. SAF, Giggs, Puyol ...etc.There are enough reasons in Barcelona that can keep him motivated..
Your last statement is silly, and you don't even seem to know what we're arguing about here..
Why?
There are enough reasons in Barcelona that can keep him motivated..
Your last statement is silly, and you don't even seem to know what we're arguing about here..
Your argument about Puyol is valid, but it is also valid to the likes of Xavi or Iniesta who have only known success with Barcelona. However, I cannot understand as to why this argument isn't used for them since, those three players are essential to Barcelona's success. How about saying Iniesta should leave to see if he can do it elsewhere, why doesn't Xavi go to Italy to see if his style works over there. These three players for me, are amongst the greatest in the world, yet only one is singled out.
I'd agree with a lot of that and I'll admit I'd be interested to see Messi in a different team, and in a different league. But my reasons go no further than idle curiosity - I'd like to see what happens. A couple of years in the PL, a couple in Serie A, a couple in the Bundesliga - all for no better reason than to compare the leagues. To see different sides of his game, to see how his presence would change a team (as much as how a new team would affect him).
As for comparisons with Scholes and Giggs. Errrr, no. I'm a United fan, I can easily suppress idle curiosity when it comes to United's best interests. I don't really feel obliged to do the same for Barcelona's.
Xavi's too old for that now. Iniesta would be intriguing though - given the impact of players like Silva and Mata, watching Iniesta in the PL would be fascinating.
Yeah, but the argument here wasn't about what we'd like to see, it was about what Messi should do.
Not sure this counts as development, but I'd like to see him play deeper than he does at Barca with a proper striker in front of him.
OK, he should do it in order to satisfy my curiosity then.
However, I doubt any team is capable of making him an offer he can't refuse or even an offer that looks vaguely attractive in comparison with what he's already got.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the word should either. A lot of people feel moving would help messi further disprove doubters andossiblu help him match/surpass maradona. So in their opinion, for his own benefit he SHOULD move. Simples.
Comparing Messi with Maradona, I bet he will never have match Maradona influence and big match performance in the game. But he is far more consistent and far less self-destructive.
To compare their attributes, Messi has better finishing, composure, one-twos and off the ball movement, whereas Maradona has better vision, passing, freekicks and leadership. Their skills, techniques, flair, dribbling and ball control etc. are on the same highest level. So I'd think they are comparable, but since Maradona lead a lesser Argentina team to World Cup glory, and a lesser Napoli to Serie A champion (by far the best league at that time), I would rate him higher than Messi, who has better support and much easier setup for success. (Barcelona may still win La Liga without Messi, or at least among the top 2, but Napoli/Argentina without Maradona is only a "mid-table" team)
To compare their attributes, Messi has better finishing, composure, one-twos and off the ball movement, whereas Maradona has better vision, passing, freekicks and leadership. Their skills, techniques, flair, dribbling and ball control etc. are on the same highest level. So I'd think they are comparable, but since Maradona lead a lesser Argentina team to World Cup glory, and a lesser Napoli to Serie A champion (by far the best league at that time), I would rate him higher than Messi, who has better support and much easier setup for success. (Barcelona may still win La Liga without Messi, or at least among the top 2, but Napoli/Argentina without Maradona is only a "mid-table" team)
If we're into hypotheticals, they would've made a very sublime combo
Thats bollocks and you know it is. Compare man for man and you'll see that they had a better defence, midfield and attack than todays Argentina.
A better attack? Seriously?
Well yes, they had Maradona.
'86 had a better defence yes, midfield perhaps but it's marginal at best and there's probably not a lot in it, and attack definitely not.
Their second best player played club football for a mediocre French side. The current team is littered with stars. Chalk and cheese.
A better team, seriously? I over-exaggerated it just a little with the attack but he was comparing this Argentina side, which has a defence like a Swiss Cheese, a goalkeeper that makes Taibi look like Gordon Banks. Come on!!!!
'86 were harder to break down, but even then they still conceded 5 goals - the most of any tournament winners (bar Italy in '82) during the last 40 years. Going forward though the current team has a wider array of talent (Maradona apart).
You have to question his "alleged", use of drugs in the 1980s too. He was apparently using them whilst in Italy so, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that he may have used them in the World Cup too. Just throwing that out there.
I said "alleged." Unless you have anything actually useful to add then I would...well, you know the rest, son.
Fact is Messi has actually taken HGH, whereas Maradona was just high as a kite on cocaine. Unless he was cycling steroids throughout his career and ended up with a normal physique that is. Then again that odd Chelsea fan seems to think Ronaldo's physique is down to steroids. Folk will believe what they want regardless...
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