Everyone knows that Messi took HGH, even UEFA or indeed FIFA. Have you not noticed that he has stopped growing? Barcelona must have done some extensive research into this so that they could gain permission to allow Messi to take them. Secondly, don't you think the HGH would have worn off by now too? Thirdly, PEDs have been available for a long time, even before Maradona played in the 86' World Cup. They say that Cocaine use can give people heart attacks, but anabolic steroids can do that too.
Lionel Messi
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Everyone knows that Messi took HGH, even UEFA or indeed FIFA. Have you not noticed that he has stopped growing? Barcelona must have done some extensive research into this so that they could gain permission to allow Messi to take them. Secondly, don't you think the HGH would have worn off by now too? Thirdly, PEDs have been available for a long time, even before Maradona played in the 86' World Cup. They say that Cocaine use can give people heart attacks, but anabolic steroids can do that too.
Saturated fats can give people heart attacks too, not sure where this all fits into the debate though. Reductio ad absurdum at its finest.
Indeed, you are correct. Though you are like the other fans, who clearly think Messi is taking something, because of the way he plays football, the number of matches he plays in a calendar year, the way he comes back from a bad injury. Sometimes, you are indeed like that "Chelsea fan", looking to convince that either one of Messi or Ronaldo are taking drugs. Le raisonnement par l'absurde.
As far as the hormone therapy he had, all you have to do is see him as a 5 year old - when he wasn't taking hormones. Same player, 20 years later.
Wow, now you're jumping to conclusions. Messi took HGH, that's a fact, I was merely comparing facts to fabrication. As for whether he's been taking drugs for a decade, well it's all speculation, but it's something I've never accused him of. It's not something one would do without evidence, is it.
That is the first time I have seen that footage. If you watch closely, his style is exactly the same as it is today. His alertness, especially for the second goal was breathtaking since he caught the player ball watching in the centre circle. He was simply a child prodigy, that is all there is to say. To say that HGH helped him develop his footballing skills is ludicrous to say the least.
You might have used a latin phrase, and I know you are intelligent, but did you see the word "alleged", in my post, in quotations of course. I did NOT say it was fact.
Both pre- and post-Maradona they were quite erratic, sometimes mid-table, sometimes top-4. In two seasons with him they finished 8th, in between five seasons in a row top-3.
1980/81: 3rd [16 teams]
1981/82: 4th
1982/83: 10th
1983/84: 12th
1984/85: 8th (Maradona's debut season)*
1985/86: 3rd
1986/87: 1st
1987/88: 2nd
1988/89: 2nd [18 teams]
1989/90: 1st
1990/91: 8th (Maradona's final season)**
1991/92: 4th
1992/93: 11th
1993/94: 6th
1994/95: 7th
...
*universally rated as his finest individual season by almost every Italian paper at that time in their match report ratings;
aggregate average ratings for the 1984/85 season from several publications
7,02 Maradona (Napoli)
6,88 Garella (Verona)
6,70 Tricella (Verona), Matteoli (Como)
6,67 Briegel (Verona)
6,65 Fanna (Verona)
6,63 Tancredi (Roma), Wilkins (Milan)
6,62 G. Galli (Fiorentina), Júnior (Torino)
6,57 Souness (Sampdoria)
6,53 Vierchowod (Sampdoria), Hateley (Milan), Di Gennaro (Verona)
6,52 Galvani (Cremonese)
6,50 De Napoli (Avellino), Scanziani (Sampdoria)
6,48 Platini (Juventus), Zenga (Inter)
6,45 Terraneo (Torino), Bagni (Napoli), Agostinelli (Atalanta)
6,43 Vialli (Sampdoria), Collovati (Inter), F. Baresi (Milan), Volpati (Verona).
In no other season did he get rated over 6,70. So, even in his most consistent season he alone couldn't lift them from mid-table.
The next season they bought Giordano from Lazio for 5 billion lire (Maradona had been bought for a world-record 13.5 billion lire), who scored 10 in 25 in his debut season (Maradona 11 in 29); Ciro Ferrara was making his way into the first-team as a brilliant centre-back; they bought goalkeeper Garella from the champions Verona (the guy rated 2nd of everyone in Serie A the previous season) and brought in the coach that would lead them to success, Otávio Bianchi.
The following season they bought De Napoli for 5.8 billion lire and Carnevale for 4 billion and the rest is history.
**he missed half of that season;
- WITH Maradona: 18 games, 7W, 4D, 7L = 18pts
- WITHOUT Maradona: 16 games, 4W, 11D, 1L = 19pts
i guess you are talking about burruchaga, who, imo wasnt our second best player, it wasnt even our second best forward -valdano was, and he was playing for real madrid, with hugo sanchez and butragueño-
and what difference does it make where he was playing? he came from independiente that two years before won the libertadores cup and then went to japan and beat liverpool, burrruchaga was a brilliant player, the fact that he wasnt playing in a top tier team doesnt change that fact
anyway, it is true that maradonas team recieve five goals that tournament, two of them in the 3-2 win over germany
but is also true that messis team in 2010 recieve four goals in only one game
so there's no way you can compare both defense
as theres no way you can win a world cup with a shit defense
Yes, it was utterly pointless and only used to discredit. Like I said, facts eh. Who needs them. It's also alleged that Messi took a cocktail of anabolic steroids, cocaine, skunk, glass full of bull's spunk and coffee prior to games. Just throwing it out there...
Interesting Skorenzy, since it looks as though that they weren't really dependant on Maradona at all. They played less games, lost only 1 game, and gained more points than they did when Maradona played. So, all in all, it can be argued that when Napoli won their title, it was simply because of a team effort rather than a one-man team that some people like to think it was. It would be great if you could put up the same comparison for Messi.
Nail on the head. The defence of 86' was far superior to the one of today. At the end of the day, there is no point in Argentina scoring 4 goals with a superior attacking setup of Messi, Aguero, Tevez, Higuain, when they are going to concede 5 simply because their defence is like a swiss cheese. Most people don't understand this concept. They think that having Messi is going to change things for Argentina. I watched them against Bolivia, and many a time Messi was trying to do something and his team mates bodged it up every single time. There is only so much Messi can do, the rest is up to his teammates. If they cannot do it, then they shouldn't play for the national team.
Because his last out of seven seasons at Napoli in which he missed half of the games and was already past his peak with lots of personal problems somehow tells you everything about how the team performed the years before and which role he played in the success of the team? Are you serious? If you haven't watched him play for Napoli during these years, please don't build an opinion on a few stupid facts taking totally out of context, that's ridiculous.
Those stats are from the 1990/91 Serie A season where Napoli were mid-table and Maradona was past his best.
Previously as Skorenzy shows Napoli were better than sometimes credited, the likes of Ferrara, Careca and De Napoli were excellent players. Nevertheless it only takes a cursory look at any of their games from the time to see how integral Maradona was to their whole attacking approach. He's the hub of everything going forward.
Napoli were very much dependent on Maradona for creative input and any sort of offensive drive before Careca arrived anyway, but my point was merely to show that Napoli weren't that bad of a side without him; they were however no title-candidates without him which is a significant point (the same can't really be said of Messi, although I do believe he's the difference between Barça being title candidates & double or treble winners). Also, a comparison of Barcelona's record with/without Messi would be hard to draw any conclusions from, as he's hardly missed a game since Guardiola was appointed + they rested him for unimportant games.
A more interesting comparison would be their personal records in games that their team lost. I'll look into it and post it here if you're interested.
A more interesting comparison would be their personal records in games that their team lost. I'll look into it and post it here if you're interested.
All true but the Spanish league isn't at the same level as the Italian league was during that time. Italy's league during it's prime was a much more level playing field imo than the Spanish league is these days.
I mean these days almost all the world class players in Spain play for Real and Barca while during Maradonas time those players were spread out over 6-7 teams.
Funnily enough the rise of Milan to be the first team full of world class players from top to bottom also came along with the decline of the Serie A.
So basically what I'm trying to say is that the gap back in the day was much easier to close and one or two world class players could turn a decent team into a title contender.
These days the gap in Spain and England is so wide that something like this is almost impossible.
If you were in Messi's place will you leave Barcelona in the Summer?
(Just to satisfy Fergus' son and co)?If you were in Messi's place will you leave Barcelona in the Summer?
If I was Messi, with the almost telepathic understanding that he has with Xavi and Iniesta, the amount of adulation he has from the supporters, the amount of support and confidence he has from the club itself, I would never leave. Challenging for the best titles, breaking scoring records left right and centre, winning Ballon D'Or galore. To be honest, I wouldn't leave. He is more to Barcelona than Giggs is to United, yet we support the very decision for Giggs to stay with us. We have to admit that if Giggs had been elsewhere in Europe, he might not have won as much since he would have been out of his comfort zone too. However, I respect Giggs to stay with us and never once questioned as to why he didn't go elsewhere, and I am not going to do it with any other player either. As far as I am concerned, it is like employment. If you don't get job satisfaction, then what is the point in staying however, if you really enjoy working with the same people, and getting the job satisfaction, then why move? If it is not broken, then there is no need to fix it. Nothing is broken in Messi's case so, he has nothing to fix. I hope he stays there for good and breaks more records to be honest.
Seems obvious but I don't think he understands English particularly well.
If you were in Messi's place will you leave Barcelona in the Summer?
Would*
How would another posters answer to this question 'satisfy' me?
Yeah, that's the problem. me englsh no good.
Read the question again, may be you'll understand it particularly well this time.
If you were in Messi's place, will you leave Barcelona in the summer?
Still don't see how Amols answer to that is going to satisfy me somehow.
Still don't see how Amols answer to that is going to satisfy me somehow.
What we saw yesterday from Messi wasn't far off this.. How many injured players would come on in the second half to turn a game around like he did yesterday?
Messi seems to be Barcelona's only weapon to beat organised defences at the moment.. He's the only one capable of creating havoc in the defence and making them lose their organization for a second, to create chances for himself and his teammates.
Also, I think the effect he has on the players around him is a bit underrated by some..
Yeah this season Barcelona have become almost too reliant on Messi. They struggle without him.
A bit reckless by Barca in fairness. He was walking around the pitch for most of the time he was on.
It's a problem but it's a unique problem to have. Too much of the attacks need to go through Messi and the wide players tend to serve as decoys or setup men for Leo. I've long felt the only way a decoy ploy like that can succeed is to actually score from other areas of the pitch so as to keep the defense honest and not focused on Messi. It seems though that everyone is either goal shy (Alexis) or refusing to shoot (Pedro). A big reason why I have preferred Tello out there as he is not merely a decoy and can score or pass from his wide position.
I also suppose that's why Neymar is so often the subject of speculation for the club, that perhaps he'd be the perfect left wing threat to link up or score with Messi. And then Deulofeu on the right. Unfortunately, neither really have the workrate of a Pedro.
Something will have to change, IMHO, as I do think there's too much Messi-dependencia
Yeah, it's clear that he takes them up a level or 2 - especially this season when they've become even more reliant on him.
They are really in need of another top class attacker. Pedro, Sanchez, Villa (post injury) have all just been too underwhelming or inconsistent.
They are really in need of another top class attacker. Pedro, Sanchez, Villa (post injury) have all just been too underwhelming or inconsistent.
He did a Zidane. Without him Barca were shit. Then he steps on the pitch and they become great again.
Perhaps you'd like one of our strikers? We aren't going spare and even our 3rd/4th choice Hernandez bags goals
Triffic player, PSG played well but when Messi came on, they struggled to contain him. Even a half fit Messi is very important to Barcelona.
I almost had to vomit of the praise Messi got after he came on - he played a ball into Villa, that Villa couldn't hope to score from - what made the goal was a brilliant flick from Villa and then a terrific shot from Pedro. It's ridiculous that Messi got all the praise for the goal!!
yes, he did a very good pass to villa, but hardly an assist, then villa protected the ball and with a great move and pass gave it to pedro, who scored
but it is true that when messi got in, barcelona game raised considerably
It can't be denied his presence revitalised Barcelona's attack, but yes the media were desperate for that angle to the extent that Villa and Pedro's contributions to the goal were diminished.
I used to get a bit annoyed with all the attention he got but just watch it again, he took three players out of the game essentially and created that space around the box for them to get the chance, that's not to take away anything from Villa or Pedro.
It was also clear that he changed the game almost instantly and Barca all of a sudden looked a real threat and PSG didn't whereas the opposite was true before his introduction.
Oh yeah Messi helped turn the game around but the goal wasn't his. It was annoying me how he was being so highly praised for the goal when he made the pass before the assist, and Pedro had a lot of work to do. When Messi made the pass I wasn't impressed but my jaw dropped when Pedro lashed that one out.
you mean villa, i guess
He has an effect on the players of his own team, but yesterday you could also see the effect he had on the opposition. There's a real sense of threat about him, even injured, and PSG who had been pressing Barça well suddenly seemed frightened to get that close to him (because he dribbles so well he'll take you out of the game), which gave him a bit too much space. Only in a couple of occurrences, but that enough for a player of his class. A lot of the credit for the goal should go to Villa and Pedro of course, but his entrance during the game definitely turned the tie around.
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