Zidane 2006 >>> Zidane 1998
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
- Start date
- Status
That's just a weak excuse really. Messi's issue is he does little at world cups and Copa Americas. It's not just his team mates. Before every major tournament we are assured he is the greatest ever by his fans, yet in a national shirt on the biggest international stages he hardly ever plays like a best ever candidate, let alone the best bar none currently playing like he shows at club level.
If Messi was blowing peoples minds with performances, even as Argentina were failing at that stage, he would get the plaudits deservedly regardless. The key here is performing at the big tournaments. If one wins them as a result of the performances, all the better. There is no other way one can realistically separate who is greater between say a Pele or a Cruyff or a Di Stefano without such a measure. For they all had imepccable club careers. Just like a Messi is doing.
Lets just say, on club level Messi is going to be the best ever, or at least going to be same level as Di Stefano. On international level, he is far from being great, a lot of players in different eras did lot better than him.
I dig it.
Well you don't have to. When you played in a lesser side and outshone all the other great of that era in better sides in that same domestic league...
"He never proved he could play with other greats and still look considerably better".
....
That tells me you didn't watch either tournament or you made a typo mistake.
For your benefit, I'll type more slowly. And no, you're not always right!
That was original, I'm delighted you pointed that out
As for the rest of your post, pointing out some of the good players in that Argie squad etc, well it was put accross in such a very bizarre condescending tone that I have zero lust in replying to it. Please carry on calling a huge percentage of football fans "deluded" for thinking that Messi is not "BETTER" than Diego Maradona yet, I mean, you really must value your own opinion eh.
This Xavi/Iniesta/ thing...I sometimes wonder to what extent it can be considered ridiculously impressive for a player to play alongside these two whilst still being a clear league ahead of them. There is a different angle there, surely.
It's always a case of "Messi is quality but Xavi/Iniesta etc...".
Well...
"Maradona never played in a team with the quality of Xavi/Iniesta and stood head and shoulders above them..."
"He never proved he could play with other greats and still look considerably better".
I'm being a bit silly about the point, but as you infer it's always just assumed that a player of Messi's quality should be the player he is because of those players. Really though, it says a lot of a lot about Messi's talent and mentality that he can go straight into a team with that much quality and pretty much immediately become the best player in the team/on the planet. Granted that the three really hit top form around about the same time, but I just find his career phenomenal. He's stood head and shoulders above everyone from pretty much the second he's been fit consistently, he's had a whole team consisting of that sort of class structured around him, he's possibly the best player of all time in 3 different positions (out wide, where he is now and behind the front man), he's broken pretty much every goalscoring record to have ever existed...all of this and more whilst still only being 25!
It's laughably good. There will surely come a point whereby this collective orthodoxy regarding the 'Greatest of All Time" tag has to be altered to cater for the sort of domination that we've seen from Messi, even if he does not perform exceptionally well on the international stage.
And to further illustrate how overly simplistic, nevermind unimaginative, that prior post was about how 'easy' it is to play in this team, Leo has played like this (Leagues above everyone on the pitch) since he was 5 years old.
The clips are widely available and he was always exceptional - for me, that is truly the mark of a generational talent
I've mentioned this point before but even in 2006 when Ronaldinho won the Ballon D'Or for presumably being the best in the world, he pointed out he wasn't even the best on his team - referring to Messi, who had yet to really 'break out' as a player
Do you cry at night alone whenever Messi scores a goal, in the "perfect world" you live in where "your opinion" is the correct one?
Seriously, how old are you? If you think this debate is not about opinions, then your problem is actually bigger than merely not acknowledging Messi's greatness..
This thread is not about opinions my ass. You don't even know your facts.
Zidane in 1998 actually had a rather indifferent tournament. He'll be remembered for ever for those two goals in the final, and being able to raise your game in the most intense pressure game in your life is worthy of recognition, but prior to that, he hadn't been exceptional. He'd gotten a red in the group stage for a nasty stud swiping on a Saudi player, if I remember correctly, missed the final game of the group stage and the round of 16 against Paraguay. And from what I'd read, his season with Juve prior to that hadn't been anything exceptional. Those two goals in the final basically won him the Ballon d'Or. 1998 was truly the victory of a solid group that Jacquet had geared for victory: they played pretty boring football, with an incredibly solid base and fast players up front. The 3-0 scoreline of the final is a bit of a misdirection as well.
In 2006 however, Zidane was exceptional and almost single-handedly knocked out Brazil and Spain with some of the most impressive world cup displays I've ever seen. It was his 'swan song' in a way, and he exited the international stage with that headbut, sure, but also on the back of incredible performances.
How you can rank '98 Zidane over '06 Zidane is incomprehensible.
Anybody consistently face as many defenders as Leo?
For all the people that say Maradona's job was not to score goals, what is the difference in the assist's between Messi and Maradona?
I have a feeling Messi trumps him in every department.
Once he gets older and is fed up of dribbling around 4 defenders, he will quite happily sit there doing the Xavi role, his passing is so under rated.
I have a feeling Messi trumps him in every department.
Once he gets older and is fed up of dribbling around 4 defenders, he will quite happily sit there doing the Xavi role, his passing is so under rated.
When Ronaldinho said this did most Barça fans just pass it off as false modesty from him or was it a point when people thought "hold on a second, this kid's seriously special"?
I agree that Zidane didn't have a great tournament in '98 and he undeservedly won the Ballon d'Or based on his contribution in the final alone but I think people forget just what his contribution was in that final - it was more than the two goals. It wasn't far off his performances in Euro '00 IMO, he set Dugarry and Guivarc'h through 1v1 at least once, possibly twice each with some lovely passing. When he wasn't showboating in that game every touch of his was incisive and decisive.
I don't think it's about assists either. Messi likely gets more assists in a season than Maradona did simply because he plays in a team that is currently averaging over three goals a game in the league while Maradona's Napoli scored under two goals a game in their title-winning season. Maradona controlled games with his passing though. Messi one day might do that but I don't think it's a given. He's such a good goalscorer that it probably wouldn't make sense to drop him into a midfield role, I think he's much more like Pelé than Maradona and he'll end up playing in that #10 role knitting things together in attack while still offering a constant goal threat. He already does that to an extent but there are games where he's very quiet in the game and just pops up with a couple of genius passes and a goal or two, you have to think at some point he'll be the one running games.
Completely agree. I was very young at '98 and the only things I remember from Zidane is his goals in the final, and a penalty kick (?) against Italy. But, I remember pretty clearly Ronaldo (probably more because of the hype of that time than because of his performances), Vieri, Suker and Batistuta. I am pretty sure that all of those players were better than Zidane in that tournament, but still Zidane is remembered by many as having a wonderful display. That two goals in final led to think that Zidane was that good at that tournament.
Zidane in 2006 was the best performer in any world cup I have seen live (last four WC) and definitely in that bracket of Garrincha '62, Cruyff '74 and Maradona '86. Probably because both France and Holland lost in the final, Cruyff and Zidane won't be remembered as stand out performors as Garrincha and Maradona, but they were quit there. Saying that Zidane in 98 was better that Zidane in World Cup 2006 is ludicrous. In fact I am pretty sure that if he didn't do what he did in the final, even if France would have lost, he would have been awarded by another Ballon D'Or.
I don't think Messi will be running games at Barça to the extent that Maradona did anytime soon. For a number of reasons:
1) different systems & roles require different skill sets; Maradona was the central playmaker for Napoli and Argentina and as such he had very little defensive duties, something which would be unthinkable if Messi were to drop deeper (even in Iniesta's role) / but that's irrelevant either way because the fact is that Barça's system doesn't really allow for one central playmaker (sure there is Xavi who dictates the pace, but his direct influence in the final third was only really noticeable in 2008/09).
2) Messi got his chance for Argentina as a more traditional 10 at the recent Copa América, and while he performed admirably he couldn't prevent them going out early because the forwards wasted the chances he created for them AND he was too deep to threaten himself. In the current Argentina set-up all the plays go through him but not in the traditional sense of a 10.
3) as much as I'd love to see it, it'd be a waste of Messi's goalscoring prowess and one that the current Barça can't really afford atm (in years to come perhaps).
It's a pity though as his passing consistency seems to have regressed this season (haven't checked the stats, but I'd bet he has a lower pass completion % than in his previous seasons), but he has almost perfected that killer diagonal through ball between RB & CB and has conjured up some real beauties this season (against Málaga & Valencia in the cup, most notably). Personally I'm nostalgic toward the Messi of 2009-10, compared to this version he had some breath-takingly complete performances back then. (Milan last week was more reminiscent of those days, even without any traditional playmaking, he just felt/looked far more involved).
I agree that in this current system there's no real place for Messi to be the playmaker but you'd think at some point in Messi's career they'll change the system and/or find a player to take some of the goals burden off Messi (Neymar?) and then we'll see what he's made of as a playmaker. I agree with you that he was limited in the Copa America even though he played well but I don't think that will always be the case. I agree about the nostalgia towards Messi in 09/10 too, I said this yesterday but as silly as it sounds when I think of Messi at his peak I think of that run of 10 goals in 4 games with the majestic hat-trick v Zaragoza topping it all off - there was definitely an element of freedom to his game that's not there any more. How much of that is down to opposition tactics and how much of it is down to Messi simply finding ways to be a more efficient, effective performer over the course of a season I don't know but when he was at his best then he was as unstoppable as he's ever been. He followed up that 4-game run with no goals in his next three so there's no question he's found a way of being a more consistent threat though.
When Cesc was poached, the big fear was that Messi would follow and considering his first team debut was in 2003 it was clear to any fan who watched him - he was unique
And the stories about how the Brasilian contingent within the squad, led by Ronnie, took the Argentine under his wing in '03 and training sessions are already legendary. He sat at the Brasilian table for meals (Which doesn't exist any longer) and was treated like one of their own. Considering this was Brasil vs Argentina, it was all the more impressive - particularly when you consider what Ronaldinho's stature was at that point as well. Everyone knew.
The kids in the cantera get a fair bit of publicity & coverage to fans and a well versed fan can tell you who the potential stars are down to the 11 year old group.
It's an obvious typo. Every long term poster on here knows I'm the biggest advocate of the Zidane did nothing of note apart from his final brace, at world cup France 98 brigade.
I wouldn't quite go that far. He was largely anonymous in the group stages, excelled against Spain and Brazil (who were a disjointed mess), then was decent against Portugal and France. It was remarkable because he'd largely been poor for the two seasons prior at Real Madrid and, up to that point, France simply looked old and tired. People can often assume that, because he performed like that at 34, he was on the top of his game throughout his early-30s, whereas there were many times between 2003/04 and 2005/06 that I felt he'd declined quicker than many of his contemporaries (Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Figo). I'm digressing and Zidane nevertheless had a strong tournament, but the star of that World Cup was Cannavaro for me: seven immaculate and imperious defensive performances.
Anybody consistently face as many defenders as Leo?
Probably yes, but increasing media coverage means that sort of image was missed nine times out of ten for players of yore.
I don't think any other player is guarded as heavily as Messi to be honest. Can you name one?
Ronaldo received a hell of a lot of attention in Serie A as did Maradona, but you're probably right. Obviously that's a combination of Messi's talent and Barcelona's dominance - 20-30% possession means you're best off camping on the edge of your box.
Why would I cry?
I don't hate Messi in any way. I judge him the same way I judge any other footballer. In the ''perfect world'' I live in your opinion and my opinion don't count. What counts are the objective facts that can be established.
Old enough to know that asking anyone if they think Fabio Cannavaro is up there with Pele and Maradona as a football great is sign of extreme lack of maturity on the part of the asker.
That is the problem with focusing on mere opinions. It leads you astray and makes you imagine anyone opposed to your opinion hates the person you call the greatest.If you think this debate is not about opinions, then your problem is actually bigger than merely not acknowledging Messi's greatness..
Messi's greatness is not in doubt regardless of opinion. The only thing in doubt is whether he is the greatest ever yet.
The only fact I've got wrong thus far was Pele being key in 3 world cups wins.
Your disease is you put too much value on personal opinion in such debates. That is why you imagine anyone who says Messi isn't the greatest ever just yet has a personal agenda against him or using an opinion biased against him.
I agree 100% That is why I had posted this earlier before my typing error:
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Don't. It was merely a typing error on my part. I really do not rate Zidane's 98 world cup tournament any where near his exploits at world cup 2006, let alone Euro 2000. In fact I believe he did very little in 1998.
Probably implies certainty and without any evidence amounts to a cynical take
The only point there is nobody has lived through a time when every second of every game Di Stefano, Maradona, Pele or Ronaldo was recorded from multiple angles and anything of note reproduced thousands of times on the internet. It's the same when Ronaldinho's time at the top coincided with the Youtube age and his tekkers were broadcast for everyone to see like never before. And see Brazil '70 for an earlier example of the impact a shift in technology can have on perceptions of a team.
A big reason maybe or possibly would have been more apropos rather than definitively claiming Messi is not crowded by more defenders, consistently, than anyone we've seen before
i think messi is the best player ever, his consistency is unparallel, year after year he breaks records that seemed unbreakable
something no one else ever did
the fact that he wins or not a world cup wont change that fact
it will make him less succesfull thant maradona and pele, but not less good
Maradona played the 1986 world cup with a great group of players, the same can say about pele in 1958 and 1970 -in 1962 he almost didnt play-
and why do i say that? in 1990 argentina made it till the final game, although maradona was injured, in 1962 brazil won the world cup althoug pele was injured
that proves that both teams were good enough to make it big withoug Maradona and Pele
people confuse winning a world cup with being a great player, and forget that football is a sport played by 11 against 11
i remember once i played a tournament in wich our best player was the top scorer, still, we came second to last
does that make him a worse player? no, he had the bad luck to not have good footballers at his side, and proves my point
something no one else ever did
the fact that he wins or not a world cup wont change that fact
it will make him less succesfull thant maradona and pele, but not less good
Maradona played the 1986 world cup with a great group of players, the same can say about pele in 1958 and 1970 -in 1962 he almost didnt play-
and why do i say that? in 1990 argentina made it till the final game, although maradona was injured, in 1962 brazil won the world cup althoug pele was injured
that proves that both teams were good enough to make it big withoug Maradona and Pele
people confuse winning a world cup with being a great player, and forget that football is a sport played by 11 against 11
i remember once i played a tournament in wich our best player was the top scorer, still, we came second to last
does that make him a worse player? no, he had the bad luck to not have good footballers at his side, and proves my point
i think messi is the best player ever, his consistency is unparallel, year after year he breaks records that seemed unbreakable
something no one else ever did
the fact that he wins or not a world cup wont change that fact
it will make him less succesfull thant maradona and pele, but not less good
Maradona played the 1986 world cup with a great group of players, the same can say about pele in 1958 and 1970 -in 1962 he almost didnt play-
and why do i say that? in 1990 argentina made it till the final game, although maradona was injured, in 1962 brazil won the world cup althoug pele was injured
that proves that both teams were good enough to make it big withoug Maradona and Pele
people confuse winning a world cup with being a great player, and forget that football is a sport played by 11 against 11
i remember once i played a tournament in wich our best player was the top scorer, still, we came second to last
does that make him a worse player? no, he had the bad luck to not have good footballers at his side, and proves my point
When you're too busy hitting on the opponents, this is what happens
Yup. Even Holland without my beloved Cruyff made it to another WC Final.
Maradona played through injury during the 1990 world cup. To insinuate that he missed part of the tournanent, or wasn't a big part of the reason they reached another final is strange indeed. Furthermore since 1994 Argentina has consintently headed to a world cup selecting from a pool of players better than they ever had in 1986/90. Yet since Maradona's demise they have consistently failed to live up to their potential to date. Even with Messi in the ranks.
you are wrong, on both statements
you don't know what argentina football league was during the 80s and don't know what maradona did in that world cup
i think messi is the best player ever, his consistency is unparallel, year after year he breaks records that seemed unbreakable
something no one else ever did
the fact that he wins or not a world cup wont change that fact
it will make him less succesfull thant maradona and pele, but not less good
Maradona played the 1986 world cup with a great group of players, the same can say about pele in 1958 and 1970 -in 1962 he almost didnt play-
and why do i say that? in 1990 argentina made it till the final game, although maradona was injured, in 1962 brazil won the world cup althoug pele was injured
that proves that both teams were good enough to make it big withoug Maradona and Pele
people confuse winning a world cup with being a great player, and forget that football is a sport played by 11 against 11
i remember once i played a tournament in wich our best player was the top scorer, still, we came second to last
does that make him a worse player? no, he had the bad luck to not have good footballers at his side, and proves my point
Except the fact Messi had some of the best footballers in the world playing with him in the last World Cup, not a bunch of park footballers and he didn't really do much. Regardless of what anyone says, he needs to prove himself outside of Barsa and that means with his national side. He needs a big performance in the next World Cup for any argument about him being the best player ever to hold any weight.
a few things:
1) messi had some of the best offensive players in the world, but the defense was shit
2) maradona was the coach, and as a coach he is shit, that's why when we faced a pretty strong opposition we failed miserably
3) even if we agree that he had the best footballers with him -which is not true- thats not enough if you don't have a good coach
4) again, you are mixing "best player" with "succesfull player"
messi is the best player ever, even though he might not be the most succesful
When Leo plays, the world watches and that includes even the past legends of the game. Hell, United players are tweeting messages about him during matches.
Argentina should have won 2006 WC . What an amazing squad they had back then. Messi should have played, would have torn the German defence a new one, rose to prominence and won the cup early on . Now he max. have two chances to win it and that's it.
. What an amazing squad they had back then. Messi should have played, would have torn the German defence a new one, rose to prominence and won the cup early on . Now he max. have two chances to win it and that's it.I think that's fair.
If the circumstances were as bad as you claim Argentina wouldn't have made it out of the groups like France. They were looking pretty good in reality and while they crumbled against Germany, even in that game I remember Argentina having some good spells where messi could have inspired them and made a difference, but couldn't.
And he's not mixing anything up. Performing like the best player of your generation in world cups is what is expected from all the greats who play for big nations. Same standards will be put in front of messi to meet.
I haven't seen enough footage from Pelé or Maradona to affirm who's better than who.There is only thing I'm sure of, it's that Messi is easily and by some distance the best player I have ever watched (between following football since 1994).The rest is impossible to judge accurately because all those greats played in different eras and under different circumstances, it makes it impossible to be certain about anybody
The best players of their respective generations have done the business at the World Cup's Marcos. Ronaldo was arguably the best player along with Suker at the 98 World Cup at 21, and again dominated it in 2002. Zidane dominated the 2006 World Cup at age 34, even though France didn't win it.
Messi needs to do the same...even if Argentina aren't lifting the trophy in Rio 16 months from now, Messi should be getting on that plane back home having played a blinder of a tournament. That's really what will seal his legacy.
The Chief's got a point about his performances in 1990. Argentina were a counter-attacking unit largely based on the partnership between Maradona and Caniggia. Look at the Brazil game in the second round, Argentina got pummelled and should have been 5-0 down before Maradona burst through the heart of their team and laid it on a plate for Caniggia to net the winner. They had a hell of a tough run that tournament - Cameroon, USSR, Romania, Brazil, Yugoslavia, Italy and West Germany - probably five of the top ten teams in the world at the time - so it's hard to judge how good Argentina were. But it's clear they were stuffy and relied on the occasional brilliance of an injured Maradona and his rapport with Caniggia. That Caniggia was suspended in the final really limited the attacking threat Argentina were able to muster against West Germany.
- Status