or it only matters when we talk about messi, ronaldo doesnt have to make an impact during a world cup
Lionel Messi
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or it only matters when we talk about messi, ronaldo doesnt have to make an impact during a world cup
Of course it matters, it's just not the highest competitive level anymore.
It's still a different and very important quality to excel in 7 do or die games in a very short time, but I'll value consistency during a club season above that any time.
International football seems a bit... disjointed? In comparison to club. Some may argue that this makes excelling individually an even more important feat, but I think it makes the competitive medium a bit more random.
It's still a different and very important quality to excel in 7 do or die games in a very short time, but I'll value consistency during a club season above that any time.
International football seems a bit... disjointed? In comparison to club. Some may argue that this makes excelling individually an even more important feat, but I think it makes the competitive medium a bit more random.
It matters when talking about both.
really? point me to the posts that say that ronaldo still needs to prove his value in a world cup
Well, Ronaldo isn't usually compared to Maradona.
That said I don't think Messi needs to prove anything in a World Cup. Though it would nice if he did so, just to make some people shut up about it.
That said I don't think Messi needs to prove anything in a World Cup. Though it would nice if he did so, just to make some people shut up about it.
I should be working
I have not seen one post from either the newbies or the mains that mentions anything about Ronaldo having to win the World Cup. Messi yes, Ronaldo no. It is the only stick that Ronaldo fans can beat Messi with, since they have got nothing else left.
Edit:
Just one thing of note, Real Madrid had a very good season and I cannot say anything to the contrary now. They beat a couple of records, which will be beaten again. Messi, in the course of this year has broken an incredible 43 records all by himself. As Bill Goldberg fans used to chant "Who's next?"
There are plenty of them posts on the Caf alone. But then again, I've not seen many posts trying to compare Ronaldo to Pele, or Maradona. It's always the tier below.
I kind of agree in the last part. Because international teams are only together for a short while, they'll often go for more cautious approaches instead of taking a risk because it's often do or die. This can end up stifling an attacking player.
Some say it helps to excel out of your comfort zone, and while it's great if a player can do so, they shouldn't be judged by that as the main factor at the end of their career. Most players will perform well in a team that suits them, with a position that suits them. If they're not as good with different players and different system, it's perfectly natural. I don't see why they'd receive a lot of criticism for it.
He needs to be compared to the great Eusebio first, before being compared to other players. I still consider Eusebio as the greatest Portuguese player to have lived. It would be good to get brwned's opinion on Eusebio since, he is very much clued up on all football matches from the 60s onwards.
I think that since Maradona left the national team, Messi has finally grown into the role that is made for him. He is finally producing the goods and I can see him doing a great deal more in the next world cup. If he can score goals, then great, but if the defence is terrible then, it is not his fault should they go out.
So is that how it works if Ronaldo can't do it then Messi shouldn't ....Isn't it the general opinion that Messi is better than Ronaldo so therefore he should be doing better than him. I think a great football player should be all round no matter what environment he is placed in he should adapt. This is not me comparing Messi to Ronaldo this has t o do with Messi being compared to football greats like Maradona who could turn a game around on any stage. Also Messi has only been tested in the Spanish League I don't know if he will just as excellent if bought to the English League for example. He has always played in familiar territory maybe that is why he excels there only
It's perfectly natural for most players to perform at a lower level at international tournaments. But (correct me if I'm wrong here) the best players in their generations have had iconic international tournaments, in addition to excellent club seasons. Why should any player that comes along be exempt?
With Messi, I'm just waiting for an international tournament where he silences everyone with some great performances. He doesn't even have to win it. To pull off a Forlan would be enough for me.
I started watching football early 2000s, so I don't know much about Eusebio. But Ronaldo's just a deadlier, more clinical version of Huntelaar anyways.
Yes, no one is asking him to score goals and marshall the defense at the same time. Just don't look like a shell of the player who plays for Barcelona, fueling all the comments that "he can't do it without the spine of the Spain team".
For me I won't rate Maradona as high as Messi until he's won the highest club competition in the world (the champions league)..
you get the point
you get the point
Good for you.
Yea. Suck it Pele!
Of course, according to a large number of Ronaldo fans, Messi has to win the world cup, which is a pre-requisite of being the GOAT. I have read very few posts in the newbies where it was assumed that Ronaldo was the best simply because he played for us. I don't buy that at all. He is clearly being left in the shadows by a naturally talented footballer who is currently providing a show every single week. Even when Ronaldo played for us, I knew that Messi was going to be better and the Champions league performance from Messi proved that. He is nearly hitting peak form and he is simply going to get better. I think the title of "The special one", no longer belongs to Mourinho, but Messi.
It's my impression that if Messi leads Argentina to an excellent World Cup we'll see a resurgence of the "he still didn't turn a crap Napoli into Serie A champions".
He's definitely improved. Whenever I saw Maradona's Argentina he always seemed intent to pack as many attackers into the one team as possible, and while they could score goals it only stifled Messi. He should be central to their side as he is with Barcelona no matter how many players like Tevez and Aguero they have because of how good he is.
It won't stop until he retires. He'll be the best when he has stopped playing. It just sounds better and makes more sense that way.
It'll happen, even though Messi could win Serie A with fecking Torino let alone Napoli full of internationals these days.
A lot of them have had, but most of those players were in international teams which were either brilliant or suited them perfectly. Pele had the luxury of playing in some of the greatest ever football sides known to man, and while Puskas and Cruyff didn't win the World Cup, they were in incredible sides. Maradona is often said to have dragged Argentina, but that was still a side that won a World Cup and had more quality than their sides do today. Brazilian Ronaldo, Gerd Muller and Beckenbauer are more greats who were blessed with superior national teams as well; Zidane too.
I wouldn't be surprised if he does have an excellent World Cup, but he can still be the greatest ever without being brilliant in one.
Whether he's played in familiar territory or not, this isn't us discussing a player who some think is slightly one dimensional in one territory; this is us discussing a record breaking player. He's proven he can do it in Europe, showing us that he can perform against sides from outwith Spain.
While we can expect a player to adapt, it's perfectly natural for them to struggle if they're put in a team which just doesn't suit them at all.
It shouldn't be on Maradona's arguments sake that he was a coke head and not a model professional like Messi and therefor he might not have achieved as much. It should be another factor as to why Messi is better.
I do think the people who don't think he's the best footballer in the world are allowed to that opinion if they don't dismiss it as well. That's something you can't really do but you can be as unsure about who is as you want.
I do think the people who don't think he's the best footballer in the world are allowed to that opinion if they don't dismiss it as well. That's something you can't really do but you can be as unsure about who is as you want.
They must have been a lot down in the newbies to get you riled up.
Yes I agree. But what about the likes of Forlan, or Sneijder?
Ok, so here's my bone of contention with it all. I honestly don't care that much about internationals. But if you're the best of all time in your sport, no excuses. Go out and perform. Messi has been proclaimed best of all time left and right, and while his club performances have been outstanding, his international performances have been mediocre. Yes, awful managers, bad team mates, but there's a difference between performing well in the midst of such shit, and being mediocre in it. Even with the bullshit he performed way below standards. I cannot honestly say that, "Messi was excellent, but his team mates let him down". They all underperformed. Badly.
feck the comparison nonsense. Like I said in another thread, most of the time it's used to denigrate the other player when comparisons are drawn. Most of us never watched Maradona or Pele, or only managed to catch the odd game, most people who claim to have done so are liars. For me Messi is up there already. I'm just not seeing the "best of all time" stuff, especially outside Barcelona.
Anyone who still argues that Messi doesn't belong in the same sentence as Pele and Maradona is a deluded fool and I'm not going to bother reasoning with such a person.
What's left to slice open is whether Messi is "greater" than Pele or Maradona. The arguments are well established, but where it lies for me is that Messi has been consistently the world's best player for five seasons and looks like he's got another sensational five seasons left in him and has left Maradona in the dust now in all but one respect -- winning a World Cup. So if you want to put all your eggs in the "World Cup" argument, then Maradona is still your man. But by that argument, the World Cup argument between Maradona and Pele has to go to Pele, which the Maradonistas never have an adequate answer for.
But if you're going by the majesty and dominance of play, for lack of a more concise way of putting it, of each of the three players for a sufficiently long period of time, then it's a close call between Messi and Pele (Messi lapped Maradona a few seasons ago), the order of which I'm just not sure about yet. Obviously, I've seen a lot more of Messi than I ever did of Pele, but we got a decent amount of Pele coverage in the US in the late 1960s and early 1970s and -- which should not be trivialized -- there is plenty of youtube videos to see for yourself what Pele did his career.
Right now, Pele barely shades it over Messi for two reasons: 1) what he accomplished as a 17 year old and 2) the fact that he played at an extraordinary level for 20 years, being dominant as a striker for at least 14 of those years. Three World Cups just can't be overlooked and Pele was dominant in Brasil during a span of time when Brasilians were easily the best footballers in the world and nearly all of them stayed in Brasil...so Pele competed against the very best . Messi will never accomplish the former, but he may well prove to accomplish the latter. And if in the end Messi continues the form of his last 5 seasons over the next 5-7 seasons, regardless of whether his national team wins a World Cup, I have no problem at all regarding him as the greatest footballer of all time.
What's left to slice open is whether Messi is "greater" than Pele or Maradona. The arguments are well established, but where it lies for me is that Messi has been consistently the world's best player for five seasons and looks like he's got another sensational five seasons left in him and has left Maradona in the dust now in all but one respect -- winning a World Cup. So if you want to put all your eggs in the "World Cup" argument, then Maradona is still your man. But by that argument, the World Cup argument between Maradona and Pele has to go to Pele, which the Maradonistas never have an adequate answer for.
But if you're going by the majesty and dominance of play, for lack of a more concise way of putting it, of each of the three players for a sufficiently long period of time, then it's a close call between Messi and Pele (Messi lapped Maradona a few seasons ago), the order of which I'm just not sure about yet. Obviously, I've seen a lot more of Messi than I ever did of Pele, but we got a decent amount of Pele coverage in the US in the late 1960s and early 1970s and -- which should not be trivialized -- there is plenty of youtube videos to see for yourself what Pele did his career.
Right now, Pele barely shades it over Messi for two reasons: 1) what he accomplished as a 17 year old and 2) the fact that he played at an extraordinary level for 20 years, being dominant as a striker for at least 14 of those years. Three World Cups just can't be overlooked and Pele was dominant in Brasil during a span of time when Brasilians were easily the best footballers in the world and nearly all of them stayed in Brasil...so Pele competed against the very best . Messi will never accomplish the former, but he may well prove to accomplish the latter. And if in the end Messi continues the form of his last 5 seasons over the next 5-7 seasons, regardless of whether his national team wins a World Cup, I have no problem at all regarding him as the greatest footballer of all time.
Has Messi left Maradona in the dust? That's a bold comment to make.
people forget that maradona won the world cup with a team made just for him, most of the fans, because they know nothing about argentinian football, think he was surrounded by mediocre players when, in fact, they were excelent footballers
pele's world cups are something else, but it wasnt "his" brazil in 1958 -although his stunning appearence-, he owes 1962 to garrincha, did nothing or very litlle in 1966 and played with some of the best players in 1970 and produced one of the best performance ever
the same can be said about cruyf in 1974, he was brilliant, but he also played with his ajax team mates, beckembauer that same world cup won it with many bayern munich team mates
in a few words, pele, cruyf and beckembauer didnt play out of their confort zone
messi wont have nothing of that, argentina has some very good offensive players, a couple of good midfielders, but it's defense and goalie are far from top tier, and, of course, besides mascherano, he wont be playing with any of his barca team mates
the other thing is that he will be at his peak in 2014 when the world cup will be held in brazil, and i really cant see any team in the world steling them the cup
pele's world cups are something else, but it wasnt "his" brazil in 1958 -although his stunning appearence-, he owes 1962 to garrincha, did nothing or very litlle in 1966 and played with some of the best players in 1970 and produced one of the best performance ever
the same can be said about cruyf in 1974, he was brilliant, but he also played with his ajax team mates, beckembauer that same world cup won it with many bayern munich team mates
in a few words, pele, cruyf and beckembauer didnt play out of their confort zone
messi wont have nothing of that, argentina has some very good offensive players, a couple of good midfielders, but it's defense and goalie are far from top tier, and, of course, besides mascherano, he wont be playing with any of his barca team mates
the other thing is that he will be at his peak in 2014 when the world cup will be held in brazil, and i really cant see any team in the world steling them the cup
How about my post, which indicates exactly that?
I think it's mentioned less with Ronaldo because it's almost like the 'final' condition in order to be mentioned alongside the other greats. With Ronaldo I'm not sure he's even at that stage yet, whereas Messi clearly is.
Bloody hell, you really love discussing this Barcelona vs Madrid and Messi vs Ronaldo stuff don't you?
Someone just has to breathe the words Real Madrid and hundreds of facts and stats about Barcelona come pouring out.
Each to thier own.
Bingo.
It has nothing to do with Ronaldo. It's about Messi. No one is saying that Ronaldo is the best player ever. It used to be, like 2 years ago when the WC was in full swing, that some people were saying that Messi had to do the business on the international stage to be claimed to be definitely better than Ronaldo. Well, quite the majority is of that opinion now that he's definitely the best current player around. People have moved on from BPITW to GOAT.
Exactly, each to their own. You argued until you were blue in the face about Ronaldo, I argued until I was blue in face about Messi. I have always respected your opinions so, please extend some common courtesy and respect mine for once. Have a nice evening Fergus.
Because the team helps in their success ...if you play with a strong team it helps. I am not doubting his talent but when you have people like xavi (among others)feeding the ball added with his skill the chance of failure is very minimal.
I know everyone has their own preference but I would rather have Ronaldo on my team maybe its because I have seen him play more and I followed him before I noticed messi I don't know what it is but I'm not jumping on the Messi band wagon. It has always been Ronaldo for me he may not be as good as Messi (and that is debatable) it's just the way you have your right to love Messi I have my right to Love Ronaldo
every great player was surrounded by other great players
or do you think that pele, cruyff and maradona did it all by themselves?
and before you start talking about maradona and napoli, he won two scudettos in 7 seasons, never made it in the champions and the most goals he scored in one championship was 16 goals
Most definitely its never a one man show and as you mentioned the current Argentina national team is weaker than the current Barcelona Squad but if you want to be compared to the greats you have to beat their records or match it. He still has time and if he keeps going at the current rate there is not doubt in my mind he will surpass more greats in his career
There's a whole spectrum between failure and what Messi's doing at the moment. Agreed that within that Barça team, a player of his talents should thrive no matter what. But he's not just doing what's expected of him, he's not even just doing a lot better than what's expected of him. He's doing something that's lightyears beyond the realm of expectancy. And even if you want to attribute a lot of his goals to the excellent service (which is madness if you're actually looking at how he pulls them off) he's still got a bucket load of assists as well.
On top of that, he's been in excellent form for Argentina for a while now.
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