Lionel Messi

Status
Not open for further replies.
kouroux said:
If he wins them a WC I think he just won't equal Maradona in the Argentinians' hearts.He'll surpass him
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Maradona is a cult figure in Argentina. Messi maybe at some point regarded as the better player but I its not necessary that he will ever reach the same cult status.
 
kouroux said:
If he wins them a WC I think he just won't equal Maradona in the Argentinians' hearts.He'll surpass him
Click to expand...

I think it goes far deeper than winning a World Cup. Maradona came from the slums of Argentina like so many of the great South American stars, and he went on to be the best player in the Argentina league while he was still in his teens - he was an idol within Argentina well before his national exploits. He considered Boca, the biggest team in Argentina, his spiritual home and had an instant connection, a real love for the club and what it represented. It's the same at Napoli where he's idolised for far more than his contributions on the pitch. He identified with the Neapolitans, he saw it as a great injustice that Southern Italians were treated as second class citizens and fought relentlessly to bring some prestige to that part of the country.

It's the fact that Maradona's values - namely that of fighting for the underdog, completely disregarding any notions of social class and treating people as equals regardless of their wealth or stature - correspond with the values of the majority of Argentines that elevated him to godly status. Messi doesn't have any of that. He plays for the most attractive club in the world, has an easy life now and had a relatively easy upbringing back home and in a lot of ways is Spanish in nature that stop people loving Messi. His performances for the national side will get people on his side but he'll compete with Maradona's god-like status IMO because he's a fundamentally different person. He doesn't have character in the way El Diego does.

Messi and (early years) Pele are awfully similar in a lot of ways, personality-wise. They're both just Mr Perfect, too nice and too simple. That's why even though Pele is revered in Brazil you still have people saying that Garrincha's #1 - it has nothing to do with who the better player was, it's entirely about their character and how the fans identified with them. I don't see that ever changing with Messi. He's not interested in that kind of adulation, he'll just let things be.
 
Good post, Brwned. You see it in how we as United fans idolise Cantona still in a way that is different to any other player we've had in recent history. He was totemic for MUFC 92-96.
 
Messi is a god damn freak. He is going to go to Brazil and win the World Cup on enemy territory, it is his destiny.
 
Brwned said:
I think it goes far deeper than winning a World Cup. Maradona came from the slums of Argentina like so many of the great South American stars, and he went on to be the best player in the Argentina league while he was still in his teens - he was an idol within Argentina well before his national exploits. He considered Boca, the biggest team in Argentina, his spiritual home and had an instant connection, a real love for the club and what it represented. It's the same at Napoli where he's idolised for far more than his contributions on the pitch. He identified with the Neapolitans, he saw it as a great injustice that Southern Italians were treated as second class citizens and fought relentlessly to bring some prestige to that part of the country.

It's the fact that Maradona's values - namely that of fighting for the underdog, completely disregarding any notions of social class and treating people as equals regardless of their wealth or stature - correspond with the values of the majority of Argentines that elevated him to godly status. Messi doesn't have any of that. He plays for the most attractive club in the world, has an easy life now and had a relatively easy upbringing back home and in a lot of ways is Spanish in nature that stop people loving Messi. His performances for the national side will get people on his side but he'll compete with Maradona's god-like status IMO because he's a fundamentally different person. He doesn't have character in the way El Diego does.

Messi and (early years) Pele are awfully similar in a lot of ways, personality-wise. They're both just Mr Perfect, too nice and too simple. That's why even though Pele is revered in Brazil you still have people saying that Garrincha's #1 - it has nothing to do with who the better player was, it's entirely about their character and how the fans identified with them. I don't see that ever changing with Messi. He's not interested in that kind of adulation, he'll just let things be.
Click to expand...

Brwned just knows everything about football.

Amazing.

If I ever happen to be on "Who wants to be a millionaire" I'll ask for your number to be my football joker. :D
 
Maradona once walked home actually crying with Boca fans after a loss. He was like Best, one of us but talented enough to play, and be the best, professionally. Everyone could relate to him.

Messi is a pure professional who is maximizing his ability. He is amazing and being able to watch him every week is something I will tell my grandkids with pride but he doesn't have the personality of a Cantona, Best or Maradona. Those are three of the coolest footballers ever though, I still love the little pot bellied Argentinian maestro
 
That's an excellent post from Brwned and I largely agree with it, but the way Messi's going it could get to a stage where there's just not really a debate to be had. If he can continue like he is now for another 5 years or so, which doesn't actually seem too unlikely, then the only arguments left are going to be petty ones like the midfield assisting him and the ridiculous World Cup one.

He may never be revered as much as someone like Maradona, but there may just eventually be a stage where as a player, people have to accept that he's the greatest of all-time.
 
17Larsson said:
Maradona once walked home actually crying with Boca fans after a loss. He was like Best, one of us but talented enough to play, and be the best, professionally. Everyone could relate to him.

Messi is a pure professional who is maximizing his ability. He is amazing and being able to watch him every week is something I will tell my grandkids with pride but he doesn't have the personality of a Cantona, Best or Maradona. Those are three of the coolest footballers ever though, I still love the little pot bellied Argentinian maestro
Click to expand...

Well Messi is a shy lad, a quite little guy that just happens to be an amazing football player.

I mean it's the kind of lad you notice in your year book and are surprised that this lad went to the same school as you and visited the some of your courses.

Players like Cantona, Best and Maradona were of course totally different type of guys.

Extroverted and eccentric alpha males who were not only on the field shining figures but also off it.
 
17Larsson said:
Maradona once walked home actually crying with Boca fans after a loss. He was like Best, one of us but talented enough to play, and be the best, professionally. Everyone could relate to him.

Messi is a pure professional who is maximizing his ability. He is amazing and being able to watch him every week is something I will tell my grandkids with pride but he doesn't have the personality of a Cantona, Best or Maradona. Those are three of the coolest footballers ever though, I still love the little pot bellied Argentinian maestro
Click to expand...

maradona is loved by every boca fan, but he is also hated by many non boca fans, Diego used to talk too much, and by that he offender other teams fans, in fact he also bad mouthed boca juniors, so he lost some of the respect he had there

messi has an advantege in that sense, because he never played for a local club
 
He keeps producing for another 5 years, I think most will vote for him best player ever.
 
Cheesy said:
He may never be revered as much as someone like Maradona, but there may just eventually be a stage where as a player, people have to accept that he's the greatest of all-time.
Click to expand...

I agree. Messi's the king. He's going to dominate a World Cup anyway, he's too good not to.
 
Messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi messi
 
Brwned said:
I agree. Messi's the king. He's going to dominate a World Cup anyway, he's too good not to.
Click to expand...

Hopefully he does at some stage. I won't be able to stand the ridiculous counter arguments in a decade or so if he never does.
 
Seriously what a player. So Federer, Messi, Ali, Maradona, Pele..
 
rcoobc said:
Aye, there is that, I was only joking anyway.
Click to expand...

oh, ok

anyway, the thing is that in argentina, those winnings mean a lot

the fact that we have olimpic gold medals and brazil doesnt and that we have more under 21 world cups than our beloved enemies, makes those achievments very important
 
I was on a board a few years ago where there was an Argie poster, Guzzi, who claimed Messi "was nowhere near Aguero".

I never did find out planet Guzzi lived on.
 
Brwned said:
I think it goes far deeper than winning a World Cup. Maradona came from the slums of Argentina like so many of the great South American stars, and he went on to be the best player in the Argentina league while he was still in his teens - he was an idol within Argentina well before his national exploits. He considered Boca, the biggest team in Argentina, his spiritual home and had an instant connection, a real love for the club and what it represented. It's the same at Napoli where he's idolised for far more than his contributions on the pitch. He identified with the Neapolitans, he saw it as a great injustice that Southern Italians were treated as second class citizens and fought relentlessly to bring some prestige to that part of the country.

It's the fact that Maradona's values - namely that of fighting for the underdog, completely disregarding any notions of social class and treating people as equals regardless of their wealth or stature - correspond with the values of the majority of Argentines that elevated him to godly status. Messi doesn't have any of that. He plays for the most attractive club in the world, has an easy life now and had a relatively easy upbringing back home and in a lot of ways is Spanish in nature that stop people loving Messi. His performances for the national side will get people on his side but he'll compete with Maradona's god-like status IMO because he's a fundamentally different person. He doesn't have character in the way El Diego does.

Messi and (early years) Pele are awfully similar in a lot of ways, personality-wise. They're both just Mr Perfect, too nice and too simple. That's why even though Pele is revered in Brazil you still have people saying that Garrincha's #1 - it has nothing to do with who the better player was, it's entirely about their character and how the fans identified with them. I don't see that ever changing with Messi. He's not interested in that kind of adulation, he'll just let things be.
Click to expand...

Are we talking here about people around the world or the Boca Juniors fans/Argentinian fans?

If we're talking about the world (which I think is the case here) then there is little relevance to that comparison..

My answer to the original question is: Nothing. There are people here who still don't think Messi is as good as Cruyff for example.. So did Cruyff win a world cup??

If Messi wins a world cup then he will probably convince more people that he's the best player ever, but there will NEVER be a unanimous opinion about that, no matter what he did. There will always be the "He has Xavi and Iniesta, can't do it in the Britannica, he is doping, ...etc.".

Also, I think judging a player based on 5,6,7 games is far from being the best way to decide if he's the best player ever or not.
 
Argentinian fans.

Cruyff dominated the World Cup without winning it - I'm sure that's enough to convince the vast majority. I agree there'll never be unanimous agreement on it though.
 
marcosdeto said:
oh, ok

anyway, the thing is that in argentina, those winnings mean a lot

the fact that we have olimpic gold medals and brazil doesnt and that we have more under 21 world cups than our beloved enemies, makes those achievments very important
Click to expand...

Not in the eyes of the rest of the world though. Messi will win the 2014 World Cup, mark my words.
 
Messi: "It was more you, the press, who talked about Muller's record. It's broken now, so you shouldn't talk about it anymore... (smiles)"

Messi: "I'll try to score more this year to make the record a bit more difficult to break for future players... (smiles)"

:D
 
Danny1982 said:
Also, I think judging a player based on 5,6,7 games is far from being the best way to decide if he's the best player ever or not.
Click to expand...



But that's just the point, it's a completely different challenge, it's the hardest challenge in football I think (or not far off).

The facts are that Messi has only had 1 outstanding international tournament run, ie. 2007 Copa América, and 2 average to below average ones (2010 WC and 2011 CA). It's too bad he wasn't given more of a chance at the 2006 WC because he was in good form there, but ultimately only 1 start and 2 sub apps is too little to go on, so I won't conclusively rate his performance in that tourney. The outstanding performance was also offset by a poor final. His 2010 WCQ campaign was also on the verge of below average. It's only been the past year that he has stepped it up (also the conditions around him have improved, with finally a more competent coach). Let's hope he keeps it up.

edit: Damn, I use 'also' a lot...
 
Skorenzy said:
"I'll try to score more this year to make the record a bit more difficult to break for future players... (smiles)"
Click to expand...

19543408.jpg
 
Only Messi would be stretured off midweek but still manage to be fit enough to score at the weekend.

I'm sure Barcelona have actually got about 10 clones of him or something.
 
Lionel MESSI

age: 25

Records
World

Most goals scored in a season (club and national team): 82 goals
Most goals scored in a season (club): 73 goals
Most goals scored in a year (club and national team): 86 goals
Most goals scored in a year (club): 74 goals
Most goals scored in FIFA Club World Cup: 4 goals (held jointly with Denilson)


Europe

Most goals scored in a European Cup season: 14 goals (held jointly with José Altafini)
Most European Cup top scorer awards: 4 awards (shared with Gerd Müller)
Highest scorer in a European Cup game: 5 goals (held jointly with ten other players)


Argentina

Most goals scored in a year (national team): 12 goals (shared with Batistuta)


Spain

Most goals scored in La Liga in a season: 50 goals
Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8 hat-tricks
Most goals scored in the Supercopa de España: 10 goals
Most consecutive La Liga matches scored in: 10 matches (shared with Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima and Mariano Martín)


Barcelona

Top goalscorer in official competitions: 283 goals
Record Goalscorer in UEFA Champions League: 56 goals
Record Goalscorer in European Competitions: 57 goals
Record Goalscorer in international Competitions: 61 goals
Most La Liga hat-tricks overall: 15
Most all competitions hat-tricks overall: 21



...within reach


Europe

Top goalscorer in European Cup (excl. qualifying): joint 2nd with 56 goals | Raúl leads with 71 goals
Top goalscorer in European Cup (incl. qualifying): 4th with 56 goals | Raúl, RvN and Schevchenko ahead of him


Argentina

Top goalscorer for Argentina NT: 4th with 31 goals | Batistuta leads with 56 goals, Crespo 35, Maradona 34


Spain

Top goalscorer in La Liga: 9th with 192 goals | Telmo Zarra leads with 251 goals


Barcelona

Top goalscorer in all competitions (incl. friendlies): 3rd with 305 goals | Paulino Alcántara leads with 369 goals
 
Status
Not open for further replies.