Lionel Messi

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Snow said:
I agree. I don't like comparing players between eras like that. The 90's are okay but there's still a massive difference between the game now and 20 years ago.
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Totally agree..

Watch this clip.. This is the first leg of the CL (European Cup) semifinal between two of the greatest clubs in football (AC Milan and Real Madrid). Real Madrid was ahead 1-0 until this moment...



Even though it was only 23 years ago, but we don't really see this kind of defense nowadays in games like this, or even much lesser games.
 
You must not have watched some of the comical defending right across the board in the last two years. Some of the Premier League defending has been shocking. Haven't there been a few times we've made Arsenal look unbelievably amateurish? Surely some of the defending in that 8-2 or the 6-1 v City can show up some terrible defending?
 
Brwned said:
Yes. I don't disagree that these tackles still happen, but they obviously don't happen as often. I don't understand your stance in this discussion. You seem to have little interest in actually watching these older games so you can't actually form an opinion from watching the games and seeing the treatment handed out to players, so what is it that makes you doubt that these tackles happened a lot more often? It just seems like a natural bias to all things modern based on very little.
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I have seen more games of the old era than you think, and that's why I think the notion that the football that is being played now is "soft" compared to the "old good days" is just a myth IMO. Players are marked much more closely and allowed much less freedom nowadays, and you see just the same hard fouls you saw in the old days. However, today's players are probably a bit smarter in protecting themselves than back then, may be, as we see more players nowadays simply jump to avoid a strong tackle, compared to 50 years ago, and still we see a lot of horrible injuries in football till this day.

Anyway, I don't really have time to look for some good clips for you (don't even think it's worth it), so I'll just leave you with these.. :p

Minute 4:53



Minute 0:50



P.S. Those were friendlies! :lol:
 
Brwned said:
Messi's old school like that in fairness, he'll skip past every challenge and brush off every tug, clip and kick. You have to take him out to bring him down. Like Georgie did, he just feels more at home with the ball at his feet than at any other time. It's in sharp contrast to certain players who go looking for the foul more often than not...
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Messi reminds me of Best more than any other player in the way his balance allows him to surf tackles.
 
Danny1982 said:
I have seen more games of the old era than you think, and that's why I think the notion that the football that is being played now is "soft" compared to the "old good days" is just a myth IMO. Players are marked much more closely and allowed much less freedom nowadays, and you see just the same hard fouls you saw in the old days. However, today's players are probably a bit smarter in protecting themselves than back then, may be, as we see more players nowadays simply jump to avoid a strong tackle, compared to 50 years ago, and still we see a lot of horrible injuries in football till this day.

Anyway, I don't really have time to look for some good clips for you (don't even think it's worth it), so I'll just leave you with these.. :p

Minute 4:53



Minute 0:50



P.S. Those were friendlies! :lol:
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You really think so? You think stuff like Gentile on Maradona still exists today, or that the methods are even more brutal? I'm actually really surprised. Will watch those clips in a bit though. I reckon the injuries nowadays have more to do with players being pushed to their physical limit in terms of conditioning than any similarity in the brutal tactics employed, but I'm happy to agree to disagree on that one.
 
Danny1982 said:
Totally agree..

Watch this clip.. This is the first leg of the CL (European Cup) semifinal between two of the greatest clubs in football (AC Milan and Real Madrid). Real Madrid was ahead 1-0 until this moment...


Even though it was only 23 years ago, but we don't really see this kind of defense nowadays in games like this, or even much lesser games.
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That sort of defending was the exception in an era when the goals-per-game ratio in Serie A and at the World Cup was the lowest it's ever been. In any case the build-up wasn't markedly different to Neville coasting up the park to cross for Rooney against Milan in 2010.



And if we're talking about Champions League semi-finals, Schalke's shambolic efforts in 2011 hardly showcase the quality of contemporary defending. Or look at Barcelona in the Supercopa against Real Madrid recently.
 
Brwned said:
You must not have watched some of the comical defending right across the board in the last two years. Some of the Premier League defending has been shocking. Haven't there been a few times we've made Arsenal look unbelievably amateurish? Surely some of the defending in that 8-2 or the 6-1 v City can show up some terrible defending?
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There have been CL matches in the current era that ended up with ridiculous scorelines. United/Roma (7-1), Bayern/Sporting (5-0, 7-1), Lyon/Werder Bremen (7-2), Barcelona/Leverkusen (7-1), Bayern/Basel (7-0), and that's just the knockout phase. Plenty of horrendous results in group play over the years.
 
There are games with low scorelines that actually had one side dominate and take shot after shot but couldn't shoot straight and/or the opposition keeper was magnificent despite a terrible defensive effort.
 
Are you serious? This not "comical defending", this is no defending at all, in the champions league semifinal no less. And just the fact that you're talking about scorelines means you don't even know what we're talking about.

Did you see the speed with which the players were running? Especially the one with the ball?

If you think that the defense back then was as good as the defense nowadays, then you're just wumming IMO.
 
I agree with Danny1982 regarding the difference in the standard and approach to defending. In pretty much every game I have ever watched from older generations, there is a clear difference in pressing and defensive work all over the pitch. I was watching some of United-Benfica not too long ago for example and even though it was very fast paced and technical, the players were left in so much space at times to just do as they will. The closing down and defensive tactics are of a far higher standard these days from the admittedly limited footage I have seen in comparison to modern day football.

Despite this limited experience though, I do think that it is an impression that just 'hits you' sort of when you watch it. The difference in collective mentality and tactical approach jumps out at you and I cannot fail but to notice it. That's not to say anything about which players would and would not make it in today's game, but I think it's more apparent than people would care to admit.
 
Gio said:
Were you making a point by highlighting Denmark's success in 1992 as an example of how the game has changed?
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No. I said that the football is different now than it was in the 90's 20 years ago to which Cal? asked me if the 90's was 20 years ago and since it's 2012 and Denmark won the Euros in '92 it was simply a case of the first thing football related that came to mind as to emphazise the fact that yes indeed, it was the 90's 20 years ago.
 
That's evident of the modern eras advanced tactics and training IMO. That does not eliminate the fact that there still exists terrible defenders, tactical blunders, and overall crappy defensive showings and outputs (see Arsenal in the 8-2 demolition by United - that was shambolic defending). Look at current MLS games for some woeful defending and tactical ineptness.

I've always felt it was easier to attack than to defend. When I play wing it comes so easy to skip past a player, cross/pass the ball, be fluid in attack, but defending is so much harder. For every Rio there exists dozens of Giggs from my view. Perhaps being a world class defender is the most difficult jump in the game.

The game has changed in so many facets, pretty much in all sports. Those defensive players of the prior eras would be much more composed defensively and tactically today.
 
KingEric7 said:
there is a clear difference in pressing and defensive work all over the pitch. I was watching some of United-Benfica not too long ago for example and even though it was very fast paced and technical, the players were left in so much space at times to just do as they will.
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No-one disagrees. Team pressing all over the pitch was only invented in the 70s and only became commonplace cross the world in the 80s. It's kept developing since then. You only need to read that thread about how Zico believes the game has changed for the worse since '82 - just because it signalled the change in attitude from letting teams play to actively going out of your way to nullifying the opposition! That change took place very quickly though, right across the board. By the late 80s, early 90s almost all of the tactics that we see today were in place then. And they were combined with much laxer laws on fouling, much worse pitches and much worse preparation - so I don't agree in the slightest that it was easier to play then. The whole reason we have stricter rules on fouling is because of that attitude change and because of the way these attackers were treated. Beforehand you had people like Georgie getting hacked to pieces by defenders but it never became a negative game (outside of a few select exceptions) because teams were still allowed the time and space to play in.

After that sea change in attitude towards focusing more on nullifying the opposition than maximising your own strengths, the state of the game just became too negative and needed fundamentally changed. If teams are going to play in a defensive, containing fashion then we'll have to limit how much contact they can get away with. Late-80s Italian football is the most gruelling period of football in the history of the game. You only need to watch a few Maradona games to see this. All the organisational qualities are there - though of course they've improved - and they're there alongside the all-too-frequent assaults on attackers. And that's not even addressing the back-pass rule. You only need to watch Denmark in '92 to see how negative football was at that point. They were entirely built on having a solid backline and nullifying the opposition in any way.

I think it's very funny that people think football's changed that much since the late-80s, early 90s. Some of those Italian defences make a mockery of the stuff we've seen today, but all people seem to need is a couple of select examples to justify their inherent belief that football now is so much better in every way. We're one of the best teams in the world in 2012 and we still let teams play against us. We still have teams walk through us. We still don't play a full press. We see this every week, and yet we don't see that as proof of how teams defend today - because it isn't. It's just one team and just one example. Gio's example of us v Milan is perfect because Neville did the exact same thing over and over again that we saw Madrid do in '89 - Ronaldinho didn't track him at all, Antonini (?) was too busy dealing with Valencia, the midfield didn't want to get pulled out of position to deal with crappy, old Neville so he just sauntered up the pitch with as much freedom as he liked. Just like those rare examples you'll find of Italian teams defending poorly.
 
Agree with pretty much everything Brwned's said over the past few pages. Yes football at the elite level has improved in terms of fitness, tactical preparation but not every team has these amazing resources nor is super strict with diet.

In the premiership for example its widely recognised that it was when Wenger came to the premiership that nutrition etc went to the next level and that other teams began to catch on. But you'd be suprised about the quality of coaching outside the top 5-6 teams in the premiership, its not as advanced as we think it is... yes there are good sports science departments and this field is improving but that can't substitute for quality, good reading of the game etc.. ffs Mick McCarthy was managing in the premiership, not every club possesses Wenger, Jose and Fergie in charge.

Talent is talent at the end of the day... can any of you hand on heart say you can watch a video of Cryuff (lots of match complilations and full matches involving him on the net) and say his talent doesn't stand out and that he'd struggle in modern day football? for me he stands out so much he'd easily be a top 5 player even now and in fact with modern day conditioning, he'd be challenging Messi/Ronaldo? Like what Brwned said, the requisite facets of a quality football player remain the same as they used to.
 
Have a listen to Roy Hodgson on Talksport, he comments on how we like to think that football is always inventing, that new coaches are unearthing new tactics, when in fact they've been done before.. Listen from 6.50min-9.30min.

http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/ri...liverpool-and-his-rise-england-manager-185912

In case you can't be arsed, he gives a few examples:

The deep lying forward role was invented in the 50's by Hidegkuti of Hungary and copied by Don Revie at City.

Hodgson mentions that in 1982 he implemented the Barca pressing style in Sweden,it was called forechecking and stolen from ice hockey. However, the former Sweden manager and player Orvar Bergmark told him they were doing that in the 1950's. Apparently Bergmarks Sweden were getting criticised for ruining games by playing that way.

So just a couple of examples tactics considered to be a modern invention actually being some 60 years old.
 
I'm with Brwned here, I can't believe people are suggesting that defending from even the 80s or 90s is not as good as modern day defending. The best defensive back four i've ever seen played together i.e. Paolo Maldini, Franco Baresi, Alessandro Costacurta and Mauro Tassotti would walk into any football team of today.
 
Ah, Baresi, don't remember him at his peak, but when Ricardo Carvalho started showing up at Porto many of the fans called him that, as if being the pinnacle of his position and what he should try to aspire to.
 
Dan said:
I'm with Brwned here, I can't believe people are suggesting that defending from even the 80s or 90s is not as good as modern day defending. The best defensive back four i've ever seen played together i.e. Paolo Maldini, Franco Baresi, Alessandro Costacurta and Mauro Tassotti would walk into any football team of today.
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That was a fine ass back four, pretty much made of solid steel. Loved watching them.
 
Dan said:
I'm with Brwned here, I can't believe people are suggesting that defending from even the 80s or 90s is not as good as modern day defending. The best defensive back four i've ever seen played together i.e. Paolo Maldini, Franco Baresi, Alessandro Costacurta and Mauro Tassotti would walk into any football team of today.
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100% agreed, but it's not like they were perfect. For all the shit people give modern defenders... there's plenty to go around across any era...



Candidate for worst ever execution of an offside trap? :D
 
a rare vid from against osasuna as a 17 year old for anyone who is interested. Very interesting to watch and see how he has developed, also amazing to see some of the ability he displays at such a young age. Also laughed at 6:30 where he was booked for diving after being clearly fouled for what should have been a penalty :lol:




Edited. Another rare one. Apparently this is the one where he was close to going out on loan and Capello said hed never seen anything like it from an 18 year old an he'd have him at juve is they didnt want him.

 
It's only one youtube clip where anyone can be made to look good. What has he done lately?

Just had a look at his stats. 1 goal in 7 games in his first season. Kluivert scored 18 in his first season of football and 120 goals in his first 5 season for Barcelona whilst Messi only scored 80 goals.

Next.
 
Those videos are quality. Does sort of make you miss some of what made him so good previously, though. For me, he struck the best possible balance about 2-3 years ago between what he's like now and what made him so good then. That's not to say he isn't different class at the moment though, obviously.
 
Messi's first game for Barcelona senior team, in a friendly against Porto at our stadium inauguration. Still 16.

 
KingEric7 said:
Those videos are quality. Does sort of make you miss some of what made him so good previously, though. For me, he struck the best possible balance about 2-3 years ago between what he's like now and what made him so good then. That's not to say he isn't different class at the moment though, obviously.
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You reckon? I think if anything he's actually taken his all round game to another level over the past year/year and a half; Namely his intelligence and passing, and it's no coincidence Argentina are reaping the rewards.

He probably has curbed his dribbling a bit, but then he's figured instead of taking on 5 players it's probably smarter to just play a defense splitting pass and cut right through them. These are qualities that I feel has widened the gap a bit more between him and Ronaldo, not the goalscoring records.

The thing is though, his ridiculous goal scoring records have just overshadowed this part of his game. Save for some absolute sitters that Sanchez and the likes missed last season this guy could have racked up close to 40 (!) assists last season mostly from exceptional through balls, as it turned out he "only" had 29 assists.

He's actually now perhaps arguably the best passer of the ball in the final third, in the world.

​


Here's a 6 minute video, all this from just last year.
 
KingEric7 said:
Those videos are quality. Does sort of make you miss some of what made him so good previously, though. For me, he struck the best possible balance about 2-3 years ago between what he's like now and what made him so good then. That's not to say he isn't different class at the moment though, obviously.
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I think part of the difference is the way almost every single team now dedicates at least 3-4 players to guard Messi all game long. The amazing thing is that he found another dimension in this game (passing) to make them pay anyway.
 
Inspectah deck said:
You reckon? I think if anything he's actually taken his all round game to another level over the past year/year and a half; Namely his intelligence and passing, and it's no coincidence Argentina are reaping the rewards.

He probably has curbed his dribbling a bit, but then he's figured instead of taking on 5 players it's probably smarter to just play a defense splitting pass and cut right through them. These are qualities that I feel has widened the gap a bit more between him and Ronaldo, not the goalscoring records.

The thing is though, his ridiculous goal scoring records have just overshadowed this part of his game. Save for some absolute sitters that Sanchez and the likes missed last season this guy could have racked up close to 40 (!) assists last season mostly from exceptional through balls, as it turned out he "only" had 29 assists.

He's actually now perhaps arguably the best passer of the ball in the final third, in the world.

​


Here's a 6 minute video, all this from just last year.
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I think so. What's more is that he has the feints, acceleration and agility to manouvre himself out of tight situations and then play some exquisite passes which makes him even more unpredictable and devastating. He is a clear level above of all the other playmakers in this regard.
 
Inspectah deck said:
You reckon? I think if anything he's actually taken his all round game to another level over the past year/year and a half; Namely his intelligence and passing, and it's no coincidence Argentina are reaping the rewards.

He probably has curbed his dribbling a bit, but then he's figured instead of taking on 5 players it's probably smarter to just play a defense splitting pass and cut right through them. These are qualities that I feel has widened the gap a bit more between him and Ronaldo, not the goalscoring records.

The thing is though, his ridiculous goal scoring records have just overshadowed this part of his game. Save for some absolute sitters that Sanchez and the likes missed last season this guy could have racked up close to 40 (!) assists last season mostly from exceptional through balls, as it turned out he "only" had 29 assists.

He's actually now perhaps arguably the best passer of the ball in the final third, in the world.

​


Here's a 6 minute video, all this from just last year.
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His passing is definitely better now. It is seriously good. One thing I've always seen acknowledged on here and elsewhere is that Maradona had better vision. He must've been seriously fecking good because Messi for me is the best at defence splitting passes in the modern game.

Still, his play in close quarters and his turning is not quite as good irrespective of opposition. I'd say his dribbling is also slightly less threatening now too. Don't think these are things that can be put down to intelligence or maturing; I think it's just a bi-product of being more conscious of how much attention is paid to him, the difference in role and perhaps due to him being more motivated by individual statistics. It may be something else, I can only speculate.

Basically, I don't think him becoming more rounded a forward in terms of his passing and footballing intelligence necessarily meant that his play in tight situations as well as his dribbling had to suffer. I think it just represents a shift in priorities and role. That's why I think the 09/10 Messi (around about then) was the best one, even if the difference is absolutely marginal to the extent that it's hardly even worth discussing. It became a common occurrence for him to pick the ball up near that right hand touchline, cut in past a few players and place it in the top left left corner (or something similar), whilst at the same time he was regularly playing people through, helping to control play in deeper situations and consistently having an impact on the game. It's a bit like the difference between 06/07 Ronaldo and 07/08 Ronaldo. For me, I'd take the former all day long, even though there is basically nothing between the two all things considered.
 
Great video, by the way. That pass at 4:23 still makes me laugh.
 
That video is great and it just shows us already the kinda player Messi (already is) will be when he gets older and he loses his amazing acceleration and agility.A guy this good at passing the ball and creating danger will always play an important in teams.He already has his transition ready for him.
 
Rewind to 2011:



TheHorse'sMouth said:
Watched that match, Messi's passing was an absolute scandal if i'm honest.
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So you had people saying his passing was "an absolute scandal"* and "fecking ridiculous" but just compare it now. I said it at the time and I stand by it, his passing game had loads of development left in it. He'd perfected that pass inside the fullback and centre back but the majority of it was about him opening up the space through dribbling and then slipping it through with a ground-pass. And when you watch Maradona you saw that entirely different dimension of passing that he possessed, he'd be 40 yards from goal and just scoop that ball over 5 or 6 players and set them straight through on goal. Messi's started to add that. For me, he's been one of the best passers in the final third since 2008, and unquestionably the best since at least 2010. What he's on his way to doing is being the best passer, period. It doesn't matter where he is on the pitch but he can cut you open with one move, and he needed that added range to do so.

Just have a glance at 5:37 by the way - more entertaining than any 'trick' a player can pull off in my view. Just sheer genius. 6:58 too.

I wonder if Spoony still thinks the same...

Spoony Kobayashi said:
I doubt he'll ever be a quarter of the passer Maradona was. Cristiano's the same, I'm not sure he'll adapt without his pace. The reason why Maradona did, was because his passing was as good as his dribbling ie out of this world.
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If anyone's interested. A great watch. By one of the best Messi match compilation makers I've seen. He seemed to have quit back in 2010, but now back I guess; check out some of his other vids on his channel, back in the day that Messi actually had space to work with he looked so much more involved in games, although he's far more effective nowadays of course...

Best of August




Best of September

http://vimeo.com/52510723


Bets of October




Some incredible dribbling in those vids, especially the September one. :eek:
It all just looks so easy to him.
 
KingEric7 said:
Those videos are quality. Does sort of make you miss some of what made him so good previously, though. For me, he struck the best possible balance about 2-3 years ago between what he's like now and what made him so good then. That's not to say he isn't different class at the moment though, obviously.
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I miss the direct linking up he used to have with Alves (specially in their treble season).The football played by Barca that season was unbelievable.I remember a goal where Messi and Alves had a double 1-2 :wenger::eek:
 
Brwned said:
Rewind to 2011:





So you had people saying his passing was "an absolute scandal"* and "fecking ridiculous" but just compare it now. I said it at the time and I stand by it, his passing game had loads of development left in it. He'd perfected that pass inside the fullback and centre back but the majority of it was about him opening up the space through dribbling and then slipping it through with a ground-pass. And when you watch Maradona you saw that entirely different dimension of passing that he possessed, he'd be 40 yards from goal and just scoop that ball over 5 or 6 players and set them straight through on goal. Messi's started to add that. For me, he's been one of the best passers in the final third since 2008, and unquestionably the best since at least 2010. What he's on his way to doing is being the best passer, period. It doesn't matter where he is on the pitch but he can cut you open with one move, and he needed that added range to do so.

Just have a glance at 5:37 by the way - more entertaining than any 'trick' a player can pull off in my view. Just sheer genius. 6:58 too.

I wonder if Spoony still thinks the same...
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Awesome stuff brwned. He had a moment like that at the weekend, drag back made the defenders think he was going backwards, then in the blink of an eye he pokes the ball between the two and accelerates, you cant defend against that.

Reminded me of this a bit

29sr3m.gif
 
LTS10 said:
He had a moment like that at the weekend, drag back made the defenders think he was going backwards, then in the blink of an eye he pokes the ball between the two and accelerates, you cant defend against that.
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^ That was quality when he did that the other day. A real 'sheeeeeeiiiit' moment. Would've been a quality goal had it gone in.
 
LTS10 said:
Awesome stuff brwned. He had a moment like that at the weekend, drag back made the defenders think he was going backwards, then in the blink of an eye he pokes the ball between the two and accelerates, you cant defend against that.

Reminded me of this a bit

29sr3m.gif
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That's his trademark right there.So "simple" and so fecking effective
 
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