Danny is the king of statistics and youtube videos.
Lionel Messi
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Danny is the king of statistics and youtube videos.
Very nicely put. As far as big game scorers (moreso than player) go, few can match Müller indeed. Maybe this might interest you, a full breakdown of Müller's European record for FC Bayern, which I researched myself from match footage and the rsssf archive.
Sorry to go off-topic, but thought this was worth sharing without making a new thread for it.
European/international record for FC Bayern (1966-1978)
All competitions: 79 apps, 69 goals (0.87)
- European Cup: 35 apps, 34 goals
- Cup Winners' Cup: 25 apps, 20 goals
- Inter-Cities Fairs Cup: 8 apps, 7 goals
- UEFA Cup: 6 apps, 4 goals
- UEFA Super Cup: 3 apps, 3 goals
- Intercontinental Cup: 2 apps, 1 goal
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Season 1966/67
*Cup Winners' Cup
[1R] - 1-1 v Tatran Presov (A)
[1R] - 3-2 v Tatran Presov (H), 2 goals
[2R] - 1-1 v Shamrock Rovers (A)
[2R] - 3-2 v Shamrock Rovers (H), 1 goal
[QF] - 0-1 v Rapid Vienna (A)
[QF] - 2-0 v Rapid Vienna (H), 1 goal
[SF] - 2-0 v Standard Liège (H), 1 goal
[SF] - 3-1 v Standard Liège (A), 3 goals
[ F ] - 1-0 v Rangers (N)
9 apps, 8 goals
Season 1967/68
*Cup Winners' Cup
[1R] - 5-0 v Panathinaikos (H), 2 goals (1 pen.)
[1R] - 2-1 v Panathinaikos (A), 1 goal
[2R] - 6-2 v Vitória Setúbal (H), 3 goals
[2R] - 1-1 v Vitória Setúbal (A)
[QF] - 1-1 v Valencia (A)
[QF] - 1-0 v Valencia (H), 1 goal
[SF] - 0-2 v AC Milan (A)
[SF] - 0-0 v AC Milan (H)
8 apps, 7 goals (1 pen.)
Season 1968/69
*(no qualification for European competition)
Season 1969/70
*European Cup
[1R] - 2-0 v AS Saint-Étienne (H)
[1R] - 0-3 v AS Saint-Étienne (A)
2 apps, 0 goals
Season 1970/71
*Inter-Cities Fairs Cup
[1R] - 1-0 v Rangers (H)
[1R] - 1-1 v Rangers (A), 1 goal
[2R] - 6-1 v Coventry City (H), 2 goals
[2R] - 1-2 v Coventry City (A)
[3R] - 2-1 v Sparta Rotterdam (H), 1 goal
[3R] - 3-1 v Sparta Rotterdam (A), 3 goals
[QF] - 0-3 v Liverpool (A)
[QF] - 1-1 v Liverpool (H)
8 apps, 7 goals
Season 1971/72
*Cup Winners' Cup
[1R] - 1-0 v Skoda Plzen (A)
[1R] - 6-1 v Skoda Plzen (H), 2 goals (1 pen.)
[2R] - 0-0 v Liverpool (A)
[2R] - 3-1 v Liverpool (H), 2 goals
[QF] - 1-1 v Steaua Bucharest (A)
[QF] - 0-0 v Steaua Bucharest (H)
[SF] - 1-1 v Rangers (H)
[SF] - 0-2 v Rangers (A)
8 apps, 5 goals (1 pen.)
Season 1972/73
*European Cup
[1R] - 1-1 v Galatasaray (A), 1 goal
[1R] - 6-0 v Galatasaray (H), 2 goals
[2R] - 9-0 v Omonia Nicosia (H), 5 goals
[2R] - 4-0 v Omonia Nicosia (A), 2 goals
[QF] - 0-4 v Ajax (A)
[QF] - 2-1 v Ajax (H), 1 goal °
6 apps, 11 goals
° sometimes (wrongfully) credited with 2 goals in this game, and thus 12 goals in this EC campaign, but was ruled as a Ruud Krol og. back then (source: UEFA)
Season 1973/74
*European Cup
[1R] - 3-1 v Atvidabergs FF (H), 2 goals
[1R] - 1-3 v Atvidabergs FF (A) *4-3 win on penalties
[2R] - 4-3 v Dynamo Dresden (H), 1 goal
[2R] - 3-3 v Dynamo Dresden (A), 1 goal
[QF] - 4-1 v CSKA Sofia (H), 1 goal
[QF] - 1-2 v CSKA Sofia (A)
[SF] - 1-1 v Újpest Dózsa (A)
[SF] - 3-0 v Újpest Dózsa (H), 1 goal
[ F ] - 1-1 v Atlético Madrid (N)
[ F ] - 4-0 v Atlético Madrid (N), 2 goals *replay
10 apps, 8 goals
Season 1974/75
*European Super Cup
(cancelled)
*Intercontinental Cup
(declined)
*European Cup
[1R] bye
[2R] - 3-2 v 1. FC Magdeburg (H), 2 goals (1 pen.)
[2R] - 2-1 v 1. FC Magdeburg (A), 2 goals
[QF] - 2-0 v Ararat Yerevan (H)
[QF] - 0-1 v Ararat Yerevan (A)
[SF] - 0-0 v AS Saint-Étienne (A)
[SF] - 2-0 v AS Saint-Étienne (H)
[ F ] - 2-0 v Leeds United (N), 1 goal
7 apps, 5 goals (1 pen.)
Season 1975/76
*European Super Cup
- 0-1 v Dynamo Kyiv (H)
- 2-0 v Dynamo Kyiv (A), did not play
*Intercontinental Cup
(cancelled)
*European Cup
[1R] - 5-0 v Jeunesse Esch (A)
[1R] - 3-1 v Jeunesse Esch (H), did not play
[2R] - 0-1 v Malmö FF (A), did not play
[2R] - 2-0 v Malmö FF (H), did not play
[QF] - 0-0 v Benfica (A)
[QF] - 5-1 v Benfica (H), 2 goals
[SF] - 1-1 v Real Madrid (A), 1 goal
[SF] - 2-0 v Real Madrid (H), 2 goals
[ F ] - 1-0 v AS Saint-Étienne (N)
7 apps, 5 goals
Season 1976/77
*European Super Cup
- 2-1 v Anderlecht (H), 2 goals
- 1-4 v Anderlecht (A), 1 goal
*Intercontintental Cup
- 2-0 v Cruzeiro (H), 1 goal
- 0-0 v Cruzeiro (A)
*European Cup
[1R] - 5-0 v Køge BK (A), 2 goals
[1R] - 2-1 v Køge BK (H)
[2R] - 1-2 v Banik Ostrava (A), 1 goal
[2R] - 5-0 v Banik Ostrava (H), 2 goals
[QF] - 1-0 v Dynamo Kyiv (H), did not play
[QF] - 0-2 v Dynamo Kyiv (A), did not play
8 apps, 9 goals
Season 1977/78
*UEFA Cup
[1R] - 8-0 v Mjøndalen IF (H), 3 goals
[1R] - 4-0 v Mjøndalen IF (A)
[2R] - 3-0 v PFC Marek Dupnitsa (H), 1 goal
[2R] - 0-2 v PFC Marek Dupnitsa (A)
[3R] - 0-4 v Eintracht Frankfurt (A)
[3R] - 1-2 v Eintracht Frankfurt (H)
6 apps, 4 goals
Great work Skorenzy..
When people (Brwned) started saying that Muller's goals were more impressive than Messi's because (basically) he did't have Xavi and Iniesta and the rest of the Barcelona squad on his side who fed Messi with all those goals..
Messi vs Muller makes a nice change from Messi vs Ronaldo at least
True Zen, at least one can always learn some new stuff.
Past 10 pages or so has been about that record that Messi is about to break. Current holder is Müller.
You weirdo Skorenzy. Good stuff. Appreciated as always! What a ridiculous European goalscoring record.
Actually it was more to do Messi's ability to create for himself than anything to do with Xavi and Iniesta, you'll find. You couldn't even take that compliment of Messi and leave it there though. I mean, god forbid I suggest he's not quite as good a goalscorer as perhaps the greatest goalscorer in footballing history...
Actually it was more to do Messi's ability to create for himself than anything to do with Xavi and Iniesta, you'll find. You couldn't even take that compliment of Messi and leave it there though. I mean, god forbid I suggest he's not quite as good a goalscorer as perhaps the greatest goalscorer in footballing history...
brwned i wasnt knocking muller. footballs changed but a guy who can score that ridiculous number of goals has to be respected regardless of how they were scored. His stats are simply ridiculous
anyways this was Messi from the weekend. My favourite part was actually 43 seconds in, thats the kind of thing really only he can do, with the body feints and quick bursts of acceleration
anyways this was Messi from the weekend. My favourite part was actually 43 seconds in, thats the kind of thing really only he can do, with the body feints and quick bursts of acceleration
Thanks, I've got more or less his entire career with Bayern (including goals, assists, penalties, suspensions, injuries, and whatever else I could confirm)
I've been working on Pelé and Maradona's career records as well, but it's immensely time-consuming and not everything is 100% verifiable. Been at it since 2009, started off with Messi and then gradually went on for others as well.
let's see; so far I've done or I'm keeping track of the following players' records (only senior levels):
Messi, entire club and NT career
C. Ronaldo, entire club and NT career
Rooney, entire club career
G. Müller, entire FC Bayern career
Pelé, Santos career until 1963 so far (this is a shitload of data to process seeing as he only scored about 760 competitive goals
) & entire NT careerMaradona, entire Napoli & NT career
Batistuta, entire NT career
Neymar, NT career so far
Nani, entire Man Utd career
Mario Gómez, entire club career
RvN, European competition record
Raúl, European competition record
incomplete:
Ronaldo, only his magnificent season at Barcelona (although I have footage of all his club goals and some of his NT goals)
Xavi, only his magnificent 2008/09 season
Ibrahimovic, most of his NT career
Falcao, Porto & Atlético Madrid seasons
Van Persie, only 3 seasons so far
on my to-do list:
- Di Stéfano
- Puskás
- Eusébio (very hard to verify)
- Best
- Cruyff
- Zico (maybe just his time in Italy)
- Platini
- M. Laudrup
- Zidane
- Iniesta
...
So if you're in need of any sort of goal or assist stat about these players there's a good chance I could provide it.
I agree with Brwned. Can't label him as the greatest goalscorer ever. He's got two of the best passers of the game in his team. The team itself are the best movers of the ball, perhaps that in they history of the game. Half of his career it's undoubtedly been the best team in the world and the other half of his career one of the best teams (largely because of him of course).
I don't agree that it was easier to score 50 years ago than it is for Barcelona today. What is their average possession? Close to 70%?
Difference between the two also is that Messi plays in Europe every season. European football is a totally different game to what it was. You can't compare it as a whole. Should rather start compare it from the 1st knockout round and onward if you want the likeness.
Dudes only 25. He's half way done with his career. One without master Xavi. He's been preparing for that but despite them having a WC player in Cesc on their bench, Xavi is still irreplaceable like our own Paul Scholes has been.
I don't agree that it was easier to score 50 years ago than it is for Barcelona today. What is their average possession? Close to 70%?
Difference between the two also is that Messi plays in Europe every season. European football is a totally different game to what it was. You can't compare it as a whole. Should rather start compare it from the 1st knockout round and onward if you want the likeness.
Dudes only 25. He's half way done with his career. One without master Xavi. He's been preparing for that but despite them having a WC player in Cesc on their bench, Xavi is still irreplaceable like our own Paul Scholes has been.
Its funny that you say theres no point debating him, when its you who are an annoyingly smug cnut who uses dumb smilies and quips about other posters intelligence or knowledge in every single one of your posts.
You say that 25 matches isnt enough to assess a player. What about you then? Have you seen more than 25 matches? Im willing to bet that you have seen less matches of him than Brwned (hes a bit of a weirdo when it comes to watching old matches after all), yet you somehow draw the conclusion that your opinion carries more weight than his. Your entire argument is based upon the belief that football now is better than it was in the 70s, and you havent even seen full matches from the 70s, just youtube compilations.
I agree with Danny that football is better now than it was in the 70's. It's only logical. Way more professional players, they are more fit, standards are higher overall. But like I said before, Barcelona is one or more classes above 99,9% of the teams. Can't say for sure how good Bayern was on the other hand or how long they were at their best since I wasn't around.
Football is 'better' in the sense there is more protection of players. Can you imagine the damage players like Best and Maradona would have done in today's games?
Difficult to compare teams of different eras but the Ajax Amsterdam team of the early 70s was magical. Those players were hacked too.
football is better in every way.
Technique, tactically, athletically etc etc. You only have to watch some of the 'great' games from the days of Pele, Muller and so on to see that.
great example would the Madrid - Frankfurt final. My grandparents say everyone spoke of that game for week, even people who didnt like football. I watch it and my first opinion is wow the quality, the defending etc etc is horrible.
But I'm thats because of my age, games envolved and I'm sure at the time it wasn't the case.
Technique, tactically, athletically etc etc. You only have to watch some of the 'great' games from the days of Pele, Muller and so on to see that.
great example would the Madrid - Frankfurt final. My grandparents say everyone spoke of that game for week, even people who didnt like football. I watch it and my first opinion is wow the quality, the defending etc etc is horrible.
But I'm thats because of my age, games envolved and I'm sure at the time it wasn't the case.
I didn't say there is no point in debating him because he is a cnut. What a childish post.
And if you say that I have based my opinion on a youtube clip after all what I said then I give up.
To compare eras one would have to factor in the current era's advancements in nutrition, training, medicine, technology, culture, etc. to the prior era, while deducting all those things from the current era when transporting to a prior era. It's the only fair and reasonable way to compare.
Muller would be the perfect 9 in today's game, would probably be stronger, more football fit, less prone to the drink, etc.; Messi would have been a Pele/Maradona back then but have received less training, nutrition, etc. Messi would not have benefitted from the medical treatment he received in the current era if he had been born in the 50s or 60s or 70s and thus may not have developed into a professional player. Which must make one think just how many players could have become stars from the prior eras with today's advancements.
What protection? We see a broken leg every couple of months now (roughly), what protection are you talking about? Have you seen Messi play? Have you seen how many times he gets held, pulled and kicked in every game? And what did a player had to do back then to be sent off? Shoot a player dead?
I don't get this either to be honest.
And scouting, which I find the most important of all.
Snow, without a Xavi and an Iniesta equivalent Muller would not have scored all those goals too, especially that Brwned already said that Muller wasn't the kind of player who can create a chance for himself, and considering that he spent most of his time on the pitch inside the penalty box or around the six yards area..
hmmm. must be watching a different game to you...
go see video clips of Best and Maradona before you come on here shooting off.
Yes...I have seen Messi get fouled and he gets a lot of free kicks.
I've seen them. Now post the video clips you have seen!
look them up...
I agree. I don't like comparing players between eras like that. The 90's are okay but there's still a massive difference between the game now and 20 years ago.
The 90s is 20yrs ago?
Of course Bayern had very good players as well but they didn't have 3 of the 4 best players in the world playing together for 8 years. Just look at Cesc. Touted as one of the top 5-10 best midfielders in the world before he joined Barcelona. He probably still is in term of talent but he doesn't look it when you compare him to Xavi or Iniesta.
Denmark won the Euro's in the 90's, 20 years ago.
See my edit above.
Danny...a lot of it is from memory....even if I did not watch every game these players played. What I remember is a lot of the fouls that get called now...were just ignored..Players just got up and went on playing.
And though there were injuries...and I'm not going to mention the old norman hunter joke about going home with a bad leg...and not knowing whose it was...
where are you getting this information about broken legs every other week or so??
granted I watch more prem matches and the occasional El Classico...
tbh it is very difficult to compare players from different eras...
I will admit tactics, defending and such are better now...as is teh ball probably...
And Greece won the Euros with a less talented unit only eight years ago.
Once or twice a season there's a horror challenge on Messi that goes unpunished, but for some reason people fail to accept that this happened every other game in Best's era. The complete lack of trust in those who've lived through the eras and seen these incidents live is a completely baffling IMO. Why should they have to prove themselves? Why is it so hard to listen and appreciate?
Everyone remembers that iconic goal when Best just brushes off Harris' brutal, scything tackle and goes on to pass it into the net. I think think this was in the same season, in the away (?) match:
To think that defenders would get away with a tackle like that now without a red and a 5+ game ban is mental. He doesn't even get a yellow. The couple of times a season that these thugs get away with it against Messi is when the ref misses it. He's looking straight at it and thinks little of it. Crazy.
Everyone remembers that iconic goal when Best just brushes off Harris' brutal, scything tackle and goes on to pass it into the net. I think think this was in the same season, in the away (?) match:
To think that defenders would get away with a tackle like that now without a red and a 5+ game ban is mental. He doesn't even get a yellow. The couple of times a season that these thugs get away with it against Messi is when the ref misses it. He's looking straight at it and thinks little of it. Crazy.
and lets not forget...very few, certainly Best was no diver...in those days.
when they fell down..they were brought down...
when they fell down..they were brought down...
Messi's old school like that in fairness, he'll skip past every challenge and brush off every tug, clip and kick. You have to take him out to bring him down. Like Georgie did, he just feels more at home with the ball at his feet than at any other time. It's in sharp contrast to certain players who go looking for the foul more often than not...
no arguments.
a very honest player.
I feel he will carry Argentina to the World Cup title in 2 years....and he may have if not for the bafoon Maradona 2 years ago.
Fair enough.. I didn't say every other week, but we've seen them often enough in the last few years.
Anyway, that was a reasonable post, and there is a lot in it that I agree with. And by the way, I wasn't actually the one who brought this up, but I don't want to re-quote and open the debate again.
Totally agree with this.. Although like you pointed out, I don't think Messi is a diver.
Remember Carragher's tackle on Nani a few years ago? This is going to be a pointless discussion, especially when you say that this challenge is worthy of 5-match ban, so let's agree to disagree here..
Yes. I don't disagree that these tackles still happen, but they obviously don't happen as often. I don't understand your stance in this discussion. You seem to have little interest in actually watching these older games so you can't actually form an opinion from watching the games and seeing the treatment handed out to players, so what is it that makes you doubt that these tackles happened a lot more often? It just seems like a natural bias to all things modern based on very little.
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