He was still much better than people gave him credit for at the 2010 World Cup. There were clearly a lot of people who looked at the fact he didn't score and wrote him off because of that, when he was incredibly unlucky not to score even once, and when he offers so much more than goals, especially for his country where he isn't always in his preferred position.
Lionel Messi
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He was still much better than people gave him credit for at the 2010 World Cup. There were clearly a lot of people who looked at the fact he didn't score and wrote him off because of that, when he was incredibly unlucky not to score even once, and when he offers so much more than goals, especially for his country where he isn't always in his preferred position.
He was okay to be honest, what he did was something one expects Messi to do against those teams.
Maradona's tactics did not help at all but even then I would say he did okay.
Actually, I think a stronger supporting cast will see him maybe play better but score less. Barca were overreliant on Messi and played to set him up to score too much. Having other goalscoring outlets in the side will help the team but probably also see him get fewer chances.
It's possible. I hope though that it frees him up even more.
No. Those are just excuses. Messi didn't peform like he should have. Just like the rest of his team mates. I have never bought the out of position argument because he is a natural play maker. For example if he was to play Iniesta's role at Barca he'd fit in seamlessly....
The difference between him and other flops at the world cup was for him he wasn't shit. Just shit by his own standards. It's at the COPA were nothing worked for him really.
I see it as the exact opposite. His performances at the last WC were better than any single individual at that world cup. So, obviously, what it means to perform well for me is very different to what it means for you.
Then your standards are low indeed. For my, money players like Forlan, Xavi, Sneidjer, Schweinstieger and Ozil all performed way better than Messi. A proper Messi performance would have blown them all away even sans goals. As an Argie fan I have no doubt he didn't produce a proper Messi performance consistently.
That's the thing though. Things are going to be affected when he's moved out of position. Even if he's a natural playmaker, it can be very hard to adjust. He was not a flop at all at the World Cup. Anyone who says he was clearly just looked at the fact he didn't score at all and based it off of that alone.
And I never got around to watching those
So my memory isn't that sharp, so I checked best performers at South Africa in Google, and Messi's name doesn't even enter discussion in most lists. Here's one list for example
http://www.soccerjones.com/soccer-news/world-cup/top-10-player-performances-at-world-cup-2010
To be fair, most players in that list made the quarterfinals at least, which may count against Messi, seeing his team crashed out to Germany at that stage. So there's obviously a bias linking his performance to the team's progress, that's prevalent in these types of discussions, which I'm trying to avoid when judging him. How did he do in the last Copa America?
Now, here's the problem: what is performance? Does that guy think Gyan, Honda, etc performed better than Messi because he watched them and thought they were actually better than Messi on the pitch or is it because they simply performed better than he expected in teams that went further than he expected? Because I'm judging Messi individually on what he did on the pitch and, not against what he does for Barca or how far Argentina went relative to expectations, but against what all the other players produced on the pitch.
So, I challenge you to actually watch Messi's performances, watch Forlan's, Ozil's, etc and then try justify to yourself in the mirror that they played better than Messi. They didn't, and if you actually watch, you'll see that it wasn't even close. The difference is that Ozil and Forlan made an impression by beating their expectations both personally and with their team. I'm not saying Messi has anything to brag about at international level, he doesn't, he hasn't actually achieved anything, but I'm just debunking this fallacy that he doesn't perform on the big stage for Argentina that people that don't really watch him keep peddling. As for copa America, I won't lie, I didn't watch it. I have no idea how he performed, I just know that Argentina flopped.
By his standards he was a flop. For me his best match at the tournament was his last group game. He had finally adjusted to the role. He was also quite good vs Mexico. Then the whole darn team froze vs Germany.
All you've done is pick stars of teams that performed very well and say they performed better than Messi. I really don't think you watched Messi, man. I'd bet anything. That along with the fact that you have no idea what the difference is between an individual performance and a team performance... you seem to think football is like tennis. That's the only way you can say a football player has to win a knock-out tournament held every four years in order to prove they're the best player ever.That's true, but its not the point. We're comparing him to his peers' standards not his own. He was still better than every single player out there; he showed he's in a separate class like he always does.
Obviously, you can think whatever you want, but that's pushing it. Are you saying that Messi, whose team got pummelled by Germany in the Quarter final, was the best player in the tournament than any other player?
I can't even remember his performance, although I do remember how excellent Schweinsteiger and Sneijder performed for their teams. Are you FranklyVulgar?
I'm saying he performed better individually than any player at the tournament, and he always does that. But I'm not saying he deserved to win any best player award or anything like that... that's different because you have to achieve and you have to make an impression, meaning the team performance and individual expectations matters. Now, if you think it is somehow ridiculous to say Messi performed better individually than Ozil, Sneijder, etc, then you're clueless and I don't think you know what you're talking about.
To be frank, I couldn't make any sense out of that post.
It seems to say that Messi will always perform better than any other individual in football, no matter what, because he is Messi.
Off the top of my head I would say:
Iniesta
Xavi
Schweinsteiger
Puyol
Robben
Sneijder
Casillas
Muller
Forlan
Villa
10 players that all performed individually better than Messi, some of them considerably. He was good but not THAT good.
Being among the top 15-30 players in terms of performance in a tournament where about 350 players started is basically a 90-95% percentile.
Which is very good, maybe even excellent for many players, but by Messi standards, it's just decent and nothing more, especially considering there are a lot of mediocre players among those 350 players.
You just don't like the point because you are so entrenched in your understanding that Messi didn't play well at the WC 2010 because Argentina was "pummeled" by Germany.
But that's okay. Amazing, it's almost like a cult with some of you Messi-worshippers (fanboyism doesn't quite cover it any more).With the possible exception of Iniesta and, maybe, Xavi, Messi performed better individually than all of them i.e. he played better on the pitch. And I believe I am backed up by the video evidence of their matches - almost all of which I watched - or their performance compilations which are available to anyone. So, I completely disagree with you, but I suspect we'll never agree unless you actually watch those players' performances because I don't think anyone could have possible watched them all plus Messi and come to the honest conclusion that, individually, they played better than Messi - particularly the attacking players because it is a more direct comparison. We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree.
The most overrated player in that Inter treble winning season. This is what Zonal Marking had to say about him in his post WC analysis:
Totally agree.
At least I worship Messi who justifies it by being the best player on the planet. You on the other hand... its tragic.
Please.
Forlán and Villa did everything Messi did whilst actually scoring important goals. After that it becomes debatable. Xavi and Iniesta, maybe. Özil, probably.
Thomas Müller and Sneijder had better World Cups, but didn't have better performances I thought. Overall there are at least 10 players who had a far better WC and at least 5 who matched/surpassed his best performances in the tournament.
Messi looked like the best player in the world in the World Cup but wasn't close to being the best player in the tournament. Forlan consistently made a difference in games, at important times, and was just as key to the team's build-up while he contributed more in front of goal.
Oh boy. I've realized that 90% of you guys that think I'm saying ridiculous shit don't really know what you're talking about because you didn't actually watch Messi and/or the other players play. But, anyway, whatever, I've made point and I'm done making it. As a few of you have probably figured by now, my posting style is largely based on making unpopular arguments that I truly believe in.Thank you, that's my point and you're talking like someone that watched. If you watched Messi play at that tournament you saw someone that was in a different class, like he almost always shows. However, crucially, he fell below expectations with Argentina and had nothing substantive to show for his performances - that's how achievement in anything is determined: substance.
With Sneijder, I thought for the dutch he was brilliant in the final. He created more clear cut chances than the Spanish players combined with considerably less possession, in the biggest game of the competition. He also brought Holland back in a game that was all but lost against Brazil.
His team actually weren't that superior to the Argies. They also had a dodgy back four and uninspiring midfielders that were more interested in kung fu fights than actually playing football. Considering all that I would say he had a superior individual tournament.
I also thought Muller was the best German player after Schweinstiger, better than Ozil was especially after the group stages.
We agree on the overall point though, that at least 10 players were better than Messi
He was okay in the world cup and performed as expected against average sides(and most are at the international stage).
He was always going to do that against lesser players, he is so great a player than one can bank on that.
But on the whole he wasn't 'special' by his standards although ultimately Argentina lost because of stupidity but nevertheless lets not over hype his performances.
So that's how it works then? People agree with you and they know what they're talking about and obviously must have watched Messi and the ones that disagree are clueless and couldn't possibly have watched him play??
Again, please.
Messi has been my favourite player since late 2005, I've probably seen 75% of all games he's ever played, but he's not beyond criticism and I'm not blind.
Both Forlán and Villa dragged their otherwise toothless teams through the tournament with their performances and contributions (goals/assists); both created chances for themselves and others; both also scored key goals. Messi was excellent in the group stage, but dissappointing against Mexico and Germany for me.
I did watch Messi and I have those compilations on my pc so I can rewatch them anytime I want. I've also watched the other players in question, but have you? Anyway, like I said, for me there were probably 4-5 players who matched or surpassed his best performances in the World Cup.
I thought Forlans golden ball award was well deserved.
He was fantastic, scored some great goals, some crucial goals.
Didn't think Muller or Sniejder were particularly great, both got important goals. but all round? not that impressive for me
Everyone has World Cup matches on their computers 
Its coz you said Forlan did everything Messi did. How else would you say that other than because you didn't really watch? Its pretty clear. And Forlan and Villa dragged their otherwise toothless teams?
Give me a break.Sneijder and Müller had a better WC, but didn't come close to the best performances of Messi for me. Schweinsteiger is harder to assess because he's not solely an offensive player (otherwise we could get Casillas, Puyol, Piqué, Lahm and Lugano of Uruguay into the discussion as well), that's why I didn't name him (and them).
Sneijder was great for Internazionale that season (in patches though, but he was especially great near the end of the season), but was far too in and out of games in the WC I thought, the final was probably his best game with indeed 2 clear cut chances that he created for Robben. His performance against Brazil is overrated, his 1st goal was a fluke and more of an own-goal than a goal, and the 2nd one came after a retarded defensive header on a corner. He created feck all chances in open play. Brazil did more to defeat themselves than Sneijder did. Müller was mostly the finisher for Germany, his best game was against England maybe, but Özil was more impressive for me throughout the tournament, consistently creating chances.
Hmm... unlike you, I don't make ridiculous claims about you-know-who having had a great WC, even though he did outscore your precious Messi.
Its coz you said Forlan did everything Messi did. How else would you say that other than because you didn't really watch? Its pretty clear. And Forlan and Villa dragged their otherwise toothless teams?
So you disagree with the notion that Spain were toothless at the World Cup?? Not only did Villa basically score 60% of their goals, he was also the only one with a constant threat about him. Forlán was equally impressive in this regard, because Uruguay were very conservative in their approach (tight, defensive) but he created chances for himself and others.
In the same way Messi created the majority of Argentina's goals and was at the core of everything they did offensively, but Argentina were hardly toothless or defensive. Hell, they scored 2 more goals than Spain and just 1 less than Uruguay despite playing 2 less games.
that is self contradiction really..
No you ostrich with it's head in the sand. I've actually mentioned players who comfortably out performed him on an individual level. I could even comfortably add to the list too. It has feck all to do with who they played for.
Actually that is your stupidity.
My stance has never been that. My stance is a player must perform at club level and at international level consistently to be declared the best ever. From qualifiers, to his continent's Nations cup tournament if his team qualifies for it, and like wise to the world cup. Only fools believe international football starts and ends with the world cup finals.
All the players who have been declared the greatest of all time have been judge on that criteria.
Further more, if that player comes from a nation very capable of winning the world cup, they must excel in that team at a world cup at the very least or inspire them to a win.
It's that simple. People who live in delusion however think football starts and ends with European club football and that it's the only measure for rating greatness.
Okay sir, or chief.
You just don't like the point because you are so entrenched in your understanding that Messi didn't play well at the WC 2010 because Argentina was "pummeled" by Germany.
I'm sorry, you are still making no sense at all. Even after reading all your posts, I don't understand how you can unilaterally declare that Messi individually was the best player and continue to claim all others don't understand football.
What are you using as a criteria to come to this conclusion? Stats? Impact on the team? Youtube clips? There must be something there. Nobody is saying that the Golden boot winner is the best player because he scored more than others. There are some serious candidates who did very well for their team.
Messi is a fine player. He's head and shoulders above the rest of the lot. Probably Ronaldo is a good competitor for him, but even he's second best to Messi. But to claim Messi had a great tournament, (not only great, but he was the best player of the tournament), pass me the stuff you are smoking. After a disappointing football season, it's the least we can all do.
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