Lionel Messi

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I agree with some of his points. You can't declare someone the best ever at football. You can declare someone the best you've seen but not the best at football ever. Football in 1920, 1960, 1990 and now wasn't the same.

Like someone said once, "Always and never are two words you should always remember never to use". That applies to someone being the best ever as well be it a footballer, actor, movie, president or whatever. It's not fully comparable to anyone that views it. I'm only 23 now. Who knows how I'll view football when I'm 40.

What you can say is that Messi is currently the best player in the world and is the best player you've seen in your opinion. You can also call him the best inside certain criteria. But calling him the best player ever is just an opinion that you can't back up now matter how much you try. You just can't.

For what it's worth I've never seen a better player and that's where I'll leave m opinion. I don't see the purpose going on about it.
 
Snow said:
I agree with some of his points. You can't declare someone the best ever at football. You can declare someone the best you've seen but not the best at football ever. Football in 1920, 1960, 1990 and now wasn't the same.

Like someone said once, "Always and never are two words you should always remember never to use". That applies to someone being the best ever as well be it a footballer, actor, movie, president or whatever. It's not fully comparable to anyone that views it. I'm only 23 now. Who knows how I'll view football when I'm 40.

What you can say is that Messi is currently the best player in the world and is the best player you've seen in your opinion. You can also call him the best inside certain criteria. But calling him the best player ever is just an opinion that you can't back up now matter how much you try. You just can't.

For what it's worth I've never seen a better player and that's where I'll leave m opinion. I don't see the purpose going on about it.
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Why? How? Did you take his tackling into consideration? Did you take his corner taking into consideration? His throw-ins? His marking? His goalkeeping? His coin flipping??

It's that kind of "trying to be smart but indeed stupid" argument, in my opinion at least. What makes you able to declare him the best now, and not the best ever based on his argument? His argument dictates that we will never be able to say anybody is the best, at any time.. Because there are just too many factors that we should take into consideration, which makes it simply impossible for us to say this is the best.. That's nonsense.

We will not compare "different aspects and qualities". We won't be comparing his corner taking ability, or tackling ability or whatever.. We aren't playing football manager.. When we talk about the best, we mean the one who had the biggest impact in the sport, and the biggest impact in the history of the sport. When we talk about Steve Jobs being one of the best ever in the industry, we aren't talking about his "qualities". We are talking about the impact he had in writing the history books.. His legacy..

You can always debate whose impact is bigger, but THAT is the reason why people will have different opinions about it, not because of the tackling corner taking thing..
 
Eriku said:
See, that's just the matter... Are you sure Xavi's not been more important to their play? I'm not the most rigorous of students when it comes to La Liga, but I gather that the machinery doesn't always tick as well when he's left out? Fabregas coming more into his own is probably off-setting that, but I think it's true that many people consider the brains of midfield, or just the general playmakers who sort out the transition between being under pressure to being the ones pressuring, to be inherently more important. And this is where I think some people find they're not entirely convinced, seeing as Messi's not yet reached that pinnacle of even being in a World Cup Final... Not that this is strange at the age of 24... which is the scary fecking thing about him and his record :|
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Yep, even more so given Villa's injury, but it's just my opinion. There's no doubting Xavi's importance, but to have a player like Messi in the final third, who rarely loses the ball, does something significant with the ball most of the time that he has it and has incredible movement...they're a very different team without him. He's a focal point, a target man, a playmaker and a safe pass all in one.

That's often one of the things that's underrated about Messi, actually. For a player that so often makes an impact when he has the ball, his ball retention is excellent (it probably isn't underrated to be fair - I just think his manipulation of a football, his touch and his strength on the ball is absolutely ridiculous). If this wasn't the case, the closing down that the Barcelona team are known for would not be as effective given that they'd have to do it a lot more often. Having someone like Messi further up the pitch alleviates pressure on the midfield in a sense, and enables the midfielders to conserve stamina. It also enables the Barcelona team to have that energy to consistently press, and start controlling the game further up the pitch.

Funnily enough, when I started noticing Messi's importance in this aspect, I started looking at United in a similar light, and started pondering as to the impact that an off-form Rooney has on our midfield and defensive play. When Rooney's touch is off (to be fair, this was more a couple of years ago - he's more consistent now), our midfield has to do a shite load of work to compensate - a midfield which is criticised as it is for not getting a hold on certain games. It made me realise the importance of having attackers who are capable of maintaining possession under pressure not just because it maintains pressure on the opposition, but also because it is a lot more tiring for the team overall if they do not. It probably seems a simple point to make, but this is really key to how Barcelona function. The pressing, the constant movement off the ball, etc...stamina is key to this, and having someone like Messi upfront, who you can ping passes at in pretty much any situation knowing that you won't have to defend a counter, is vital.

Chief said:
He was considered the best player in the world. As a result their form according to Sarni's criteria wouldn't matter.
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To be fair, Sarni was getting at the level of performance dictating awards, not the level of ability. Like I say, Zidane was class - it was he, alone, that made me start watching overseas football, but his level of performance week upon week did not merit awards by Sarni's definition.

In my opinion, of course. :D
 
Danny1982 said:
Why? How? Did you take his tackling into consideration? Did you take his corner taking into consideration? His throw-ins? His marking? His goalkeeping? His coin flipping??

It's that kind of "trying to be smart but indeed stupid" argument, in my opinion at least. What makes you able to declare him the best now, and not the best ever based on his argument? His argument dictates that we will never be able to say anybody is the best, at any time.. Because there are just too many factors that we should take into consideration, which makes it simply impossible for us to say this is the best.. That's nonsense.

We will not compare "different aspects and qualities". We won't be comparing his corner taking ability, or tackling ability or whatever.. We aren't playing football manager.. When we talk about the best, we mean the one who had the biggest impact in the sport, and the biggest impact in the history of the sport. When we talk about Steve Jobs being one of the best ever in the industry, we aren't talking about his "qualities". We are talking about the impact he had in writing the history books.. His legacy..

You can always debate whose impact is bigger, but THAT is the reason why people will have different opinions about it, not because of the tackling corner taking thing..
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You could have read what came after the bold part and spare yourself writing all this.

I'm not sure what you're saying at all with the rest of your post. What tackling corner thing? What has Steve Jobs got to do with it? Is marketing yourself now a football talent?
 
Nani Nana said:
What bollocks, inconsistent at a time when you barely watched foreign football. How many games of the 2000-2001 Serie A did you watch to come up with such statements? You were probably aged 14

Anyway, it's a matter of football aesthetics not consistency. Talking of the best footballer ever is a moot debate at the root anyway.. Best at what? Putting the ball in the back of net? Hitting corners? Tackling opponents? There's too much to football to deem a player the best ever. If you rank players by versatility then Messi is nowhere near - 200 of his goals are him cutting from the wing.

Some people will prefer the brutality of Messi's statistics (he's not really Barça's best ever scorer incidentally, Paulino Alcantara has 369 though they were deemed "obsolete" recently, great PR from Barça) and the weight of his trophies, others would rather have an exquisite touch with the outside of the foot from Zidane or Ronaldinho. Some people would prefer an inconsistent player who comes up with the greatest volley of all-time in a CL final or a Panenka penalty in a WC final when you expect it least, or a scoring machine.

But this constant need to rank the actual star player as the best ever in every sport is a stupidity which only befits snobby, whimsy football fans with such exclusive tastes that they require the player they currently watch be the best that ever existed, like a Louis Vuitton bag they cannot afford. Guys that did not even see Maradona or Pelé play 3 full games assessing their all time contribution... You're having a laugh
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Nobody has stopped you from preferring Zidane's touch or Ronaldinho's skill to everything Messi has ever done. You can even hold Zidane's CL final volley as the greatest thing ever done on a football pitch if you like, no problem. You have a right to any crackpot opinion you can come up with, but you don't have a right to rule a debate invalid at your personal whim.

The best ever is a subject in any competitive activity and some people come along that lay sufficient claim to the title. The simple truth of the matter is that Messi is arguably the best footballer that ever walked this earth and that many fans, managers and players see him in that regard - he'll almost certainly be widely regarded the best ever by the end of his career. You don't have to agree that he is, but you can't start ranting about the premise of age-old debates about "the best ever" just because you don't like the prevalent opinion. That's the problem with being so fanatically averse to a certain idea - the truer it becomes, the more you open yourself up to being a nut.
 
Snow said:
You could have read what came after the bold part and spare yourself writing all this.

I'm not sure what you're saying at all with the rest of your post. What tackling corner thing? What has Steve Jobs got to do with it? Is marketing yourself now a football talent?
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How would you know if you say you don't understand what I'm saying?

It's obvious what I was saying. Steve Jobs is the best football player ever..
 
EB100 said:
Nobody has stopped you from preferring Zidane's touch or Ronaldinho's skill to everything Messi has ever done. You can even hold Zidane's CL final volley as the greatest thing ever done on a football pitch if you like, no problem. You have a right to any crackpot opinion you can come up with, but you don't have a right to rule a debate invalid at your personal whim.

The best ever is a subject in any competitive activity and some people come along that lay sufficient claim to the title. The simple truth of the matter is that Messi is arguably the best footballer that ever walked this earth and that many fans, managers and players see him in that regard - he'll almost certainly be widely regarded the best ever by the end of his career. You don't have to agree that he is, but you can't start ranting about the premise of age-old debates about "the best ever" just because you don't like the prevalent opinion. That's the problem with being so fanatically averse to a certain idea - the truer it becomes, the more you open yourself up to being a nut.
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It's as wierd and wonderful as ever reading this threat and i'll say this.

The best ever is of course subjective, it's all opinions at the end of the day but it's hardly ever a talking point. I honestly don't remember anyone saying a player was or could be the best ever. Usually it's "one of the" or "could be one of the" with regards to all the great players we have all seen in modern times. The fact Messi is being compared and even in the opinions of some surpassing the players widely regarded as the best ever is not an every day occurance. You dont have to agree with it but what he is achieving and doing in the sport can't be overlooked. He's a phenomenon and at 24 can lay claim to greatness.

People will always pick bones, people would have no doubt done the same with George Best, with Pele, with Maradona even. People often overlook the people at the time. Nostalgia in football is huge.
 
Galliani (vice-president Milan): "Messi is the best player ever. And this is said by someone who has seen Maradona and Pele play." [milanch]
 
Enjoy the player, this 'Player A' is better than 'Player B' is so highly subjective and ultimately pointless that I've yet to understand what the purpose of it is...Bragging rights?...For whom?...Fans?

Right now, we're in the company of a special player who is currently without peer and yet to hit his prime...Enjoy him while he lasts
 
Danny1982 said:
How would you know if you say you don't understand what I'm saying?

It's obvious what I was saying. Steve Jobs is the best football player ever..
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Danny, I read your post 3 times and still hasn't got a clue what's that gotta do with Snow post.

Snow's point if I got it right, is those who hasn't seen all the great players of the past, then his opinion of the 'greatest of all time' surely is incorrect.

My opinion, even if Snow has a point, what a player achieve (not only medals) in football can be a measurement point of how good he is.
Also it'll be interesting to hear some opinions from the likes of Sir Alex or Bobby Charlton who has seen all those greats playing and where would he consider Messi compared to them.
 
FCBarca said:
Enjoy the player, this 'Player A' is better than 'Player B' is so highly subjective and ultimately pointless that I've yet to understand what the purpose of it is...Bragging rights?...For whom?...Fans?

Right now, we're in the company of a special player who is currently without peer and yet to hit his prime...Enjoy him while he lasts
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Never understood it myself. Comparing players across generations is utterly pointless. Can never really prove anything one way or the other yet we have pages after pages filled with it.
 
Danny1982 said:
Nani Nana, No no, you must be having a laugh.. lol

I'll stop debating with you (if you call that a debate), but may I quote you one more time here? There just seem to be too much wisdom in your words, that it will be a waste not to listen to them, again...



Nani Nana
March 2012​
This statement, will change the history of football, forever..

(By the way, everybody knows that Henman was the serve and volley master. That's pretty much all he could do.)
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Sampras was the serve and volley master. I remember a game against Rafter once - he did the same serve, and the same volley over and over again for the entirity of the match. Was the most fecked up display of serving I've ever seen in my life, to be honest. I think Rafter won 3 points on Sampras' serve in the whole match!
 
FCBarca said:
Enjoy the player, this 'Player A' is better than 'Player B' is so highly subjective and ultimately pointless that I've yet to understand what the purpose of it is...Bragging rights?...For whom?...Fans?
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it's a childish desire to kill your "football father", Freud would have a field day with these
 
What will happen to Messi's legacy if Argentina have a shit WC in Brazil and Messi plays just average/good?
 
reelworld said:
Danny, I read your post 3 times and still hasn't got a clue what's that gotta do with Snow post.

Snow's point if I got it right, is those who hasn't seen all the great players of the past, then his opinion of the 'greatest of all time' surely is incorrect.

My opinion, even if Snow has a point, what a player achieve (not only medals) in football can be a measurement point of how good he is.
Also it'll be interesting to hear some opinions from the likes of Sir Alex or Bobby Charlton who has seen all those greats playing and where would he consider Messi compared to them.
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Wenger said Messi was the greatest player ever, I guess he is old enough to have seen a lot of them.
 
Comparing Zidane to Messi is one of the silliest things I´ve read here in my four years in Redcafe. And I´ve read a lot.
 
I don't know if he's the best ever because I've not seen Pele/Best at their pomp, and was a bit young when watching Maradona. But, I honestly can't believe they were better players, because Messi is pretty much perfect...he just combines incredible ability, consistency and mentality, absolutely nothing missing from his game.
 
reelworld said:
Danny, I read your post 3 times and still hasn't got a clue what's that gotta do with Snow post.

Snow's point if I got it right, is those who hasn't seen all the great players of the past, then his opinion of the 'greatest of all time' surely is incorrect.
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I wasn't replying to Snow's point, I was replying to Nani Nana's "point" and particularly his statement that I quoted twice earlier, which Snow defended.

Nani Nana's point was that there is no such thing called the best ever, as there are many aspects in the game, like tackling, hitting corners ...etc. so Messi is not the best because he is good at scoring (probably) but he is not the best at tackling or hitting corners ...etc., which I found nonsense really, and missing the whole point. He sounded to me like he is trying to "measure" the best ever the "Football manager" way, after which he concluded that it's impossible to have an opinion about the "best ever" because it's a meaningless term.. That was the "point" I was replying to, and disagreeing with.
 
I know I won't as International football means feck all to me (in terms of stage) anymore.I rate the Champions league and even the national leagues higher
 
Danny1982 said:
I wasn't replying to Snow's point, I was replying to Nani Nana's "point" and particularly his statement that I quoted twice earlier, which Snow defended.

Nani Nana's point was that there is no such thing called the best ever, as there are many aspects in the game, like tackling, hitting corners ...etc. so Messi is not the best because he is good at scoring (probably) but he is not the best at tackling or hitting corners ...etc., which I found nonsense really, and missing the whole point. He sounded to me like he is trying to "measure" the best ever the "Football manager" way, after which he concluded that it's impossible to have an opinion about the "best ever" because it's a meaningless term.. That was the "point" I was replying to, and disagreeing with.
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Nono. I said I agreed with some of his points. You can not compare a player playing now with someone playing 20 years ago. There are just so many variables. He's the best player playing currently. He's been voted the best three years in a row and will get the 4th. Surely that's should be enough.

I'm gonna go all soft now on you. If you don't want to stop because you feel there's a debate in this then stop because of Messi. He wouldn't want you to argue over this. Do it for him you guys. God bless us everyone.
 
Snow said:
Nono. I said I agreed with some of his points. You can not compare a player playing now with someone playing 20 years ago. There are just so many variables. He's the best player playing currently. He's been voted the best three years in a row and will get the 4th. Surely that's should be enough.

I'm gonna go all soft now on you. If you don't want to stop because you feel there's a debate in this then stop because of Messi. He wouldn't want you to argue over this. Do it for him you guys. God bless us everyone.
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:lol: I almost snorted my Pepsi, damn you
 
Has scored 35 goals in La Liga this season now, overtaking Chubby Rons record for Barcelona of 34. Another day, another record.
 
It's amazing those goal stats he has and he isn't even an out and out striker in the first place, same goes for Cristiano Ronaldo. Absolutely brilliant footballers
 
SATA said:
It's amazing those goal stats he has and he isn't even an out and out striker in the first place, same goes for Cristiano Ronaldo. Absolutely brilliant footballers
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Agreed completely. I wish that more of them could appreciate them for the brilliant footballers they are, instead of constantly comparing the two of them.
 
with today's goals messi has beaten his own and ruuds record of most goals scored in one champion and tied the most goals ever scored by a player in a european competition
 
cheesy said:
Agreed completely. I wish that more of them could appreciate them for the brilliant footballers they are, instead of constantly comparing the two of them.
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No one is doing that any more, even Cal has given up.
 
marcosdeto said:
with today's goals messi has beaten his own and ruuds record of most goals scored in one champion and tied the most goals ever scored by a player in a european competition
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How many is he at? Last season Falcao had 17 or 18 I think (in the europa league though). It's crazy to think that he is only 24 years old as well :eek:
 
He'll hit 70 goals this season :eek:
 
KM said:
He'll hit 70 goals this season :eek:
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He needs to drop dead...that's just ridiculous. For years, a striker scoring 30+ goals was considered to be on a monster year.

Getting 40 odd like Ronaldo did with us :eek:

Yet, we now have Messi making scoring 50 goals look like a walk in the park...feck.
 
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