Lionel Messi

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marcosdeto said:
you'll find there are a lot of legends in the caf, all of them are imposible to contradict, even when you have the proofs at hand

maradona won alone,
stoke is invincible on mondays nights at home,
the premier league refs are the best in the world,
la liga defenders are bad,
only latins dive,
fouls are acceptable and part of the game, diving or feigning injury are not
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I found I had no chance of agreeing with my Brazilian mate on this, and I suspect there's a cultural basis for the inability to agree... I find that an honest attempt at a tackle that winds up being a foul is fair enough... I find that diving and deliberately trying to con refs is far more disdainful to me.

As for Maradona, every time I've been on here arguing about this, I've highlighted that I find Maradona's range of passing, and the trials he faced in terms of being in Napoli in the defensively toughest period of Italian league football, not to mention having a shot left ankle for all his glory years. He remains different to me... More integral to a team's main functions than Messi, who's a last third of the pitch kind of player... It may very well be down to preference, but even I have to say that I'm finding it really hard to hold on to this... If Messi's indeed the greatest player ever, I'll be realising it long before his thirties.

And since Zizou's brought up, he's my favourite player ever to watch... The man's an artist.
 
Eriku said:
I found I had no chance of agreeing with my Brazilian mate on this, and I suspect there's a cultural basis for the inability to agree... I find that an honest attempt at a tackle that winds up being a foul is fair enough... I find that diving and deliberately trying to con refs is far more disdainful to me.

As for Maradona, every time I've been on here arguing about this, I've highlighted that I find Maradona's range of passing, and the trials he faced in terms of being in Napoli in the defensively toughest period of Italian league football, not to mention having a shot left ankle for all his glory years. He remains different to me... More integral to a team's main functions than Messi, who's a last third of the pitch kind of player... It may very well be down to preference, but even I have to say that I'm finding it really hard to hold on to this... If Messi's indeed the greatest player ever, I'll be realising it long before his thirties.

And since Zizou's brought up, he's my favourite player ever to watch... The man's an artist.
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Did you watch Maradona play live? Or did you base your opinion on what you've heard and read about him, and a few highlights they show on TV from time to time?
 
Maybe we could create a new thread since its hit 10k. It doesn't let me view recent posts on Tapatalk due to the page count being messed up.
 
Eriku said:
I found I had no chance of agreeing with my Brazilian mate on this, and I suspect there's a cultural basis for the inability to agree... I find that an honest attempt at a tackle that winds up being a foul is fair enough... I find that diving and deliberately trying to con refs is far more disdainful to me.

As for Maradona, every time I've been on here arguing about this, I've highlighted that I find Maradona's range of passing, and the trials he faced in terms of being in Napoli in the defensively toughest period of Italian league football, not to mention having a shot left ankle for all his glory years. He remains different to me... More integral to a team's main functions than Messi, who's a last third of the pitch kind of player... It may very well be down to preference, but even I have to say that I'm finding it really hard to hold on to this... If Messi's indeed the greatest player ever, I'll be realising it long before his thirties.

And since Zizou's brought up, he's my favourite player ever to watch... The man's an artist.
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you and i already had this argument, and realised that is a cultural thing, we agreed that the worst foul is always worse than the worse dive, because of the consecuences, and that the leniest foul is better than the leniest dive

as for maradona, what can i say? when napoli won the scudetto (86/87 and 89/90), teams like Sampdoria (90/91) and Verona (84/85) did it too. that puts in context maradonas achivement, i mean, it wasnt the only team that at that time won the scudetto for the first time, where was verona's maradona? where was sampdoria's maradona? why be only put Diego in a pedestal for that achivement when it also was acomplished by other players in other teams? it was clear that at that moment, milan, inter and juventus werent that good, or were fighting for other trophies, thus, letting other lesser teams conquer the scudetto
 
gavoleary said:
Messi = Legend

(am I the 10,000 reply in this thread?)
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Technically, someone's been ghosted though, screwing up the thread.

Danny1982 said:
Did you watch Maradona play live? Or did you base your opinion on what you've heard and read about him, and a few highlights they show on TV from time to time?
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A lot of people who watched both still assert Maradona is better. Spoony for example.
 
adexkola said:
A lot of people who watched both still assert Maradona is better. Spoony for example.
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But then again, a lot think otherwise too. But that's not the point..

He was discussing some details about Maradona's "range of passing" and some tactical aspects like how integral he was for his team's functions (unlike Messi), which would be strange to come from somebody who has never seen Maradona play (in his prime), probably..
 
adexkola said:
Technically, someone's been ghosted though, screwing up the thread.



A lot of people who watched both still assert Maradona is better. Spoony for example.
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It's impossible to compare someone who is in the still relatively early stages of his career vs. Someone who has had their career and retired. I never saw a prime Maradona so I can't say, but he would have had to be some player to match Messi. He will probably become the most decorated player of all time when he retires if you take into account team and personal awards and trophies.
 
Eriku said:
I found I had no chance of agreeing with my Brazilian mate on this, and I suspect there's a cultural basis for the inability to agree... I find that an honest attempt at a tackle that winds up being a foul is fair enough... I find that diving and deliberately trying to con refs is far more disdainful to me.

As for Maradona, every time I've been on here arguing about this, I've highlighted that I find Maradona's range of passing, and the trials he faced in terms of being in Napoli in the defensively toughest period of Italian league football, not to mention having a shot left ankle for all his glory years. He remains different to me... More integral to a team's main functions than Messi, who's a last third of the pitch kind of player... It may very well be down to preference, but even I have to say that I'm finding it really hard to hold on to this... If Messi's indeed the greatest player ever, I'll be realising it long before his thirties.

And since Zizou's brought up, he's my favourite player ever to watch... The man's an artist.
Click to expand...

That's the thing about Messi - he was playing deeper a few years back, but he's so good at finishing and in the final third that it's just the best use of his abilities. He's the best finisher I've ever seen, it's incredible! His manipulation of a football under pressure...he must be absolutely unmoved by stress. It's a comparison that's been used to describe many players but, with Messi, it genuinely is like he's having a kick-about in the park with a few mates. As for importance (though I understand your point), he is easily Barcelona's most important player, in my opinion - the most important player of perhaps the best footballing side to have graced the game.

Funnily enough, when people are arguing the case for Messi in years to come, they'll probably be saying "I'd like to see so and so play for a team as good as Barcelona of 2009-2012, and still stand out as easily the best player. Then we can come back and have this discussion...".
 
marcosdeto said:
you and i already had this argument, and realised that is a cultural thing, we agreed that the worst foul is always worse than the worse dive, because of the consecuences, and that the leniest foul is better than the leniest dive

as for maradona, what can i say? when napoli won the scudetto (86/87 and 89/90), teams like Sampdoria (90/91) and Verona (84/85) did it too. that puts in context maradonas achivement, i mean, it wasnt the only team that at that time won the scudetto for the first time, where was verona's maradona? where was sampdoria's maradona? why be only put Diego in a pedestal for that achivement when it also was acomplished by other players in other teams? it was clear that at that moment, milan, inter and juventus werent that good, or were fighting for other trophies, thus, letting other lesser teams conquer the scudetto
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Ah, sorry... I don't recall us having settled that matter, but that synopsis seems entirely fair :)

And OH... Yes... Entirely true that I might have a lopsided account of Italian league football of that time... I was a toddler, so do excuse my lack of fuller context. Anyway, I've already said that Maradona's spot on the pedestal is under consideration.
 
KingEric7 said:
That's the thing about Messi - he was playing deeper a few years back, but he's so good at finishing and in the final third that it's just the best use of his abilities. He's the best finisher I've ever seen, it's incredible! His manipulation of a football under pressure...he must be absolutely unmoved by stress. It's a comparison that's been used to describe many players but, with Messi, it genuinely is like he's having a kick-about in the park with a few mates. As for importance (though I understand your point), he is easily Barcelona's most important player, in my opinion - the most important player of perhaps the best footballing side to have graced the game.

Funnily enough, when people are arguing the case for Messi in years to come, they'll probably be saying "I'd like to see so and so play for a team as good as Barcelona of 2009-2012, and still stand out as easily the best player. Then we can come back and have this discussion...".
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See, that's just the matter... Are you sure Xavi's not been more important to their play? I'm not the most rigorous of students when it comes to La Liga, but I gather that the machinery doesn't always tick as well when he's left out? Fabregas coming more into his own is probably off-setting that, but I think it's true that many people consider the brains of midfield, or just the general playmakers who sort out the transition between being under pressure to being the ones pressuring, to be inherently more important. And this is where I think some people find they're not entirely convinced, seeing as Messi's not yet reached that pinnacle of even being in a World Cup Final... Not that this is strange at the age of 24... which is the scary fecking thing about him and his record :|
 
KingEric7 said:
Not true. Zidane was by no means the best player in the world every season during his career. Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Henry, Figo, Figo, Nesta...there's not a chance he was better than the likes of these in every season..
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He was considered the best player in the world. As a result their form according to Sarni's criteria wouldn't matter.

KingEric7 said:
I'm not contesting that Zidane was amazing, or that other factors often come into play when deciding these awards, but he simply wasn't that consistent or as good as that statement would suggest.
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Yep. I don't even like the guy to be fair:lol: I was just trying to show
why Sarni's premise was flawed.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He was considered the best player in the world. As a result their form according to Sarni's criteria wouldn't matter.

Yep. I don't even like the guy to be fair:lol: I was just trying to show
why Sarni's premise was flawed.
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He might have been considered the best ability wise but performance wise he wasn't the best all of that time.
 
adexkola said:
He was brilliant for Juventus. His form became spotchy once he joined Madrid, and he only stepped it up for the big games there. Excellent at the 2006 World Cup.
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Such an incredible swan-song. Thought his chipped penalty was absolutely outrageous, and befitting the man :)
 
Brosstan said:
The memory of Zidane is definitely inflated on here. He was very inconsistent, but at his best a true genious.
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What bollocks, inconsistent at a time when you barely watched foreign football. How many games of the 2000-2001 Serie A did you watch to come up with such statements? You were probably aged 14

Anyway, it's a matter of football aesthetics not consistency. Talking of the best footballer ever is a moot debate at the root anyway.. Best at what? Putting the ball in the back of net? Hitting corners? Tackling opponents? There's too much to football to deem a player the best ever. If you rank players by versatility then Messi is nowhere near - 200 of his goals are him cutting from the wing.

Some people will prefer the brutality of Messi's statistics (he's not really Barça's best ever scorer incidentally, Paulino Alcantara has 369 though they were deemed "obsolete" recently, great PR from Barça) and the weight of his trophies, others would rather have an exquisite touch with the outside of the foot from Zidane or Ronaldinho. Some people would prefer an inconsistent player who comes up with the greatest volley of all-time in a CL final or a Panenka penalty in a WC final when you expect it least, or a scoring machine.

But this constant need to rank the actual star player as the best ever in every sport is a stupidity which only befits snobby, whimsy football fans with such exclusive tastes that they require the player they currently watch be the best that ever existed, like a Louis Vuitton bag they cannot afford. Guys that did not even see Maradona or Pelé play 3 full games assessing their all time contribution... You're having a laugh
 
Sarni said:
He might have been considered the best ability wise but performance wise he wasn't the best all of that time.
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Well Maradona for one definitely was. But since football is a team sport and his team didn't always win he didn't always win it.

What helps Messi is he is spotless. The model professional, so likeable, playing for the best side around bar none and so talented. It's nigh impossible to not be biased in his favour all the time.
 
FCBarca said:
Definitely...In fact, I think his Juventus days were far superior to his RM ones...He had a window there where he was the king but it was a small one...Velvet smooth though
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Juve Zidane was freaking awesome, that was the Zidane that showed up Euro 2000 and at world cup 2006....

That is why what Keane did to Juve in 1999 still boggles my mind.
 
Great PR from Barca? Rodriguez has always been considered the clubs top scorer since he set his record, they didnt just decide to wipe Alcantaras record a week ago so that Messi could get some plaudits.

I can understand your last point though.


In saying that I remember Zidanes Madrid days clearly and there was countless forgetful games for him. His habit of rising to the big occasion is what leaves that lasting impression
 
adexkola said:
He was brilliant for Juventus. His form became spotchy once he joined Madrid, and he only stepped it up for the big games there. Excellent at the 2006 World Cup.
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:lol: says the guy aged 15 when Zidane retired.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
ell Maradona for one definitely was. But since football is a team sport and his team didn't always win he didn't always win it.

What helps Messi is he is spotless. The model professional, so likeable, playing for the best side around bar none and so talented. It's nigh impossible to not be biased in his favour all the time.
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If you're talking about the Ballon D'or, Maradona wasnt eligible for it. It was strictly european players, otherwise Diego would have no doubt won it countless times.
 
Nani Nana said:
What bollocks, inconsistent at a time when you barely watched foreign football. How many games of the 2000-2001 Serie A did you watch to come up with such statements? You were probably aged 14

Anyway, it's a matter of football aesthetics not consistency. Talking of the best footballer ever is a moot debate at the root. Best at what? Putting the ball in the back of net? Hitting corners? Tackling opponents? There's too much to football to deem a player the best ever. If you rank players by versatility then Messi is nowhere near - 200 of his goals are him cutting from the wing.

Some people will prefer the brutality of Messi's statistics (he's not really Barça best ever scorer incidentally, Paulino Alcantara has 369 though they were deemed "obsolete" recently, great PR from Barça) and the weight of his trophies, others would rather have an exquisite touch with the outside of the foot from Zidane or Ronaldinho. Some people would prefer an inconsistent player who comes up with the greatest volley of all-time in a CL final or a Panenka penalty in a WC final when you expect it least, or a scoring machine.

But this constant need to rank the actual star player as the best ever is a stupidity which only befits snobby, whimsy football fans with such exclusive tastes that they require the player they currently watch be the best that ever existed, like a Louis Vuitton bag they cannot afford. Guys that did not even see Maradona or Pelé play 3 full games assessing their all time contribution... You're having a laugh
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1- No, most of them were scored in friendlies.

2- I assume you watched all of Pele's and Maradona's games?

3- Most of us watched pretty much all of Zidane's games, or most of them at least.

4- By the same logic you can argue that Henman is better than Federer because he was much better at the serve and volley thing? That's a laughable argument to be honest, and I'm not even sure you're being serious here..

In case you are, no, we don't judge players based on their goals, trophies, or contribution to the team, we judge them based on if they can step up, at crunch time, and save a penalty when your goalkeeper is sent off and your team is out of subs.. Which is why the greatest player of all time is this guy...

 
LTS10 said:
If you're talking about the Ballon D'or, Maradona wasnt eligible for it. It was strictly european players, otherwise Diego would have no doubt won it countless times.
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I'm talking FIFA WPOTY. These days the awards are combined. None Europeans only became eligible for the award you brought up in Weah's hey day.
 
By the time Zinedine got to Club Med, he was practically a retired player hanging out at the pool with the other rockstars at Club Med...But there were some epic battles in those days, all over Europe...Game is imbalanced at the moment so talk tends to hover over the same few topics - I know

I do keep thinking though that eventually we'll see some evolution in the game elsewhere and the hegemony will wane
 
Danny1982 said:
1- No, most of them were scored in friendlies.
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How many? And how many of Messi's were scored in friendlies? And how many were scored with the opposition down to ten men, or knackered out after chasing Xavi all game? Who was the holding midfielder in Paulino Alcantara's years? You've got no clue yet use any statistic that fits your criteria to argue that Messi is the best ever.

Danny1982 said:
2- I assume you watched all of Pele's and Maradona's games?
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Nope, but neither do I hold the pretention that I am capable of ranking them above or below a current player, like many here do

Danny1982 said:
3- Most of us watched pretty much all of Zidane's games, or most of them at least.
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:lol: Sure. You watched every game, ever

Danny1982 said:
4- By the same logic you can argue that Henman is better than Federer because he was much better at the serve and volley thing? That's a laughable argument to be honest, and I'm not even sure you're being serious here..
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Except Henman was not better than Federer at the serve and volley thing, thus making him an inferior player to the Swiss in every department. Besides you can only be a tennis player, while as a footballer you can be a striker, centre-back, etc. Going by the Grand Slam tally thing, Federer has a mere 16 compared to Roy Emerson's 28. Yet his stats are wiped out as tennis was "amateur" back then, "not like today" so that Federer fans and Nike be able to market him as the best ever. Well it's the same stupid preference for the present that will one day lead tennis fans to wipe out Federer's record as 'amateurish' just so they can rank the ATP number 1 in 2047 as the best ever, according to their own warped value system.

People make statistics say whatever they like and after twisting them, use them as an indelibile measure of footballers' worth through the ages.

Can I ask for a hawkeye challenge on this one ? :rolleyes:
 
Nani Nana said:
How many? And how many of Messi's were scored in friendlies? And how many were scored with the opposition down to ten men, or knackered out after chasing Xavi all game? Who was the holding midfielder in Paulino Alcantara's years? You've got no clue yet use any statistic that fits your criteria to argue that Messi is the best ever.



Nope, but neither do I hold the pretention that I am capable of ranking them above or below a current player, like many here do



:lol: Sure. You watched every game, ever



Except Henman was not better than Federer at the serve and volley thing, thus making him an inferior player to the Swiss in every department. Besides you can only be a tennis player, while as a footballer you can be a striker, centre-back, etc. Going by the Grand Slam tally thing, Federer has a mere 16 compared to Roy Emerson's 28. Yet his stats are wiped out as tennis was "amateur" back then, "not like today" so that Federer fans and Nike be able to market him as the best ever. Well it's the same stupid preference for the present that will one day lead tennis fans to wipe out Federer's record as 'amateurish' just so they can rank the ATP number 1 in 2047 as the best ever, according to their own warped value system.

People make statistics say whatever they like and after twisting them, use them as an indelibile measure of footballers' worth through the ages.

Can I ask for a hawkeye challenge on this one ? :rolleyes:
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Paulino alcantara played for barcelona before la liga was constituted

most of his goals were scored in the Catalunya league, against teans from that part of spain

he scored goals against Club Espanyol, X Sporting Club, RCD Espanyol, CD Espanyol, FC Espanya de Barcelona, Sabadell and CE Europa.

Where do the clubs play now:
----------------------------
FC Barcelona (Barcelona).... First Division (First level)
RCD Espanyol (Barcelona).... First Division (First level)
[this club was known as C Español F and (R)CD Español
during the period of the Catalan championships]
CE Sabadell FC (Sabadell)... Second Division B (Third level)
CE Europa (Barcelona)....... Third Division (Fourth level)
Hispania FC (Barcelona)..... Disappeared in 1903.
X Sporting Club (Barcelona). Disappeared. Many players joined to RCD
Espanyol in 1909.
FC Espanya (Barcelona)...... Disappeared. Changed its name to Gracia FC
in 1923, and merged with CE Europa in 1931
to form Catalunya FC. A few years later,
Catalunya FC was renamed CE Europa again.
 
marcosdeto said:
Paulino alcantara played for barcelona before la liga was constituted

most of his goals were scored in the Catalunya league, against teans from that part of spain

he scored goals against Club Espanyol, X Sporting Club, RCD Espanyol, CD Espanyol, FC Espanya de Barcelona, Sabadell and CE Europa.

Where do the clubs play now:
----------------------------
FC Barcelona (Barcelona).... First Division (First level)
RCD Espanyol (Barcelona).... First Division (First level)
[this club was known as C Español F and (R)CD Español
during the period of the Catalan championships]
CE Sabadell FC (Sabadell)... Second Division B (Third level)
CE Europa (Barcelona)....... Third Division (Fourth level)
Hispania FC (Barcelona)..... Disappeared in 1903.
X Sporting Club (Barcelona). Disappeared. Many players joined to RCD
Espanyol in 1909.
FC Espanya (Barcelona)...... Disappeared. Changed its name to Gracia FC
in 1923, and merged with CE Europa in 1931
to form Catalunya FC. A few years later,
Catalunya FC was renamed CE Europa again.
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Who gives a feck? Does that mean that because the Premier League was created in 1992, all the great players from yesteryear should forever have their records and performances viewed through a shaded lense, the lense of the past ? Someone quoted George Best's goals, but should they count ?

He never even scored at the Etihad stadium, for crying out loud.
 
Nani Nana said:
Who gives a feck? Does that mean that because the Premier League was created in 1992, all the great players from yesteryear should forever have their records and performances viewed through a shaded lense, the lense of the past ? Someone quoted George Best's goals, but should they count ?

He never even scored at the Etihad stadium, for crying out loud.
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either you need a hug or a bitchectomy

calm down!
 
Nani Nana, No no, you must be having a laugh.. lol

I'll stop debating with you (if you call that a debate), but may I quote you one more time here? There just seem to be too much wisdom in your words, that it will be a waste not to listen to them, again...

Talking of the best footballer ever is a moot debate at the root. Best at what? Putting the ball in the back of net? Hitting corners? Tackling opponents? There's too much to football to deem a player the best ever.
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Nani Nana
March 2012​
This statement, will change the history of football, forever..

(By the way, everybody knows that Henman was the serve and volley master. That's pretty much all he could do.)
 
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