Lionel Messi

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Who is lieing?.

|You.

Messi started this season as a 20 year old. In the season Ronaldo started as a 20 year old he made 47 appearances scoring 12 goals.

Ronaldo's birthday is in February, Thus if he starts a season with one age he ends it with another. So your claim he scored 12
goals aged 21, for example is dead wrong. You'd rather look for convenient arguments to support your view rather than sticking to hard facts, unfortunately.

Messi turned 21 at the beginning of this season and has so far scored 15 in 17. But if you would rather take the season before then he scored 16 in 40. Still a greater return than Ronaldo's 12 in 47.

I don't have to. I already put up stats the way they should be put up .Judging them on entire seasons. Those stats I put up show Ronaldo is better. In every season I put up. No matter how long you keep denying it.

Ronaldo made great leaps of development when he started to bring his game together at 21/22/23 but i don't think he will still make great leaps and bounds the way he did. He has improved so much that it seems unlikely to me at least that he will improve a great deal more.

That is the problem. You are so sure Ronaldo can't improve but so sure Messi will. My question to you is what gives you the certainty? This season alone Ronaldo has already improved. He is scoring and creating more than last year at this similar stage even without top form. While Messi is just fit. Not different in anyway from what he was last year. He is only just playing in a much improved side. That is why he is scoring and creating more. Because he is not doing all the work in the frontline alone anymore..

Messi was basically brilliant from day one unlike Ronaldo, and has steadily been improving but never really changing his game the way Ronaldo did because Messi doesn't need to. His natural game remains the same as it ever was and is still as effective.

That's why I'm wondering why you are so sure Messi can surpass such a player. When he himself needs very little improving. Yet Ronaldo has shown the capacity for his game to keep evolving to higher levels. For the past the years consecutively.

I'm not saying Ronaldo will stagnate. He is too good to stagnate but i do believe that Messi has been the better player at every stage in his career and will continue to be.

It has already been proved other wise. You just dont want to admit it.

Messi will never have a season where he scores over 40 goals but his all round contribution can't be measured with just goals. His contribution to his team this year has been astounding because Messi can be your heartbeat, your match winner, your go to guy and your creator.

Messi doesn't need 40 goals to reach Ronaldo. He has either develop a similar all round game. Or become so good at what he does ala Maradona that he is head and shoulders above any one else. the way Maradona was with legends like Platini.

The unfortunate thing, even though you don't intend it, you seem to project that you have this idea Ronaldo does not bring thing like being a match winner, a creator and a heart beat (remember the United is a one man side jibes), that all Ronaldo bring is goals. When If Ronaldo had played alongside a person who could finish almost as well as him last year, his assist stats would have been through the roof too. Not just his goals. And you wouldn't have a valid basis for such statements.


& If you do not know by now or can't admit Ronaldo has much more than goals to his game, then you are totally biased.

Maybe you think i've been unfair on Ronaldo but i seriously suggest you start paying closer attention to Messi to see why so many people rate him so highly.

I don't think it. I know it. You are often beyond unfair towards Ronaldo.

Furthermore I don't have to take a greater look at Messi to know how good he is or why folk rate him. I myself rate him. For I'm not blind neither, do I live under a rock. He is the second most naturally talented player I've seen since Maradona.(More so than Ronaldinho, who is the other one). But as it stands now, he isn't better than Ronaldo and its going to be hard for him to surpass Ronaldo. Very Hard, though not impossible. Especially when he often gets injured and as player has very little to improve upon. Yet he is competing with a player who hardly gets injured, on top of being a forward almost as complete as Pele was. With a similar knack as the great one for scoring and setting records. While showing an incredible capacity to improve on his game to levels no one believed he could attain, in a manner un matched in world football.

For my money those two have a chance of reaching the heights Pele and Maradona reached. If they keep their current rate up. & assuming no other player steps up aa later stage liek Zidane did.

But who will be ultimately greater, we shall find out in about 8 years time. When their eras will start drawing to a close. Not now when all we have is just opinion. And not even a single season in which both have been on fire from start to finish, at the same time, in fly functioning team, for us to properly judge.

 

[kouroux]

Long life to the Chief

 

[FranklyVulgar]

|You.
Ronaldo's birthday is in February, Thus if he starts a season with one age he ends it with another. So your claim he scored 12
goal aged 21, for example is dead wrong. You'd rather look for convinient arguments to support your view rather than sticking to hard facts, unfortuntaley.

I don't have to. I already put up stats the way they should be put up .Jugding them on entire seasons. Those stats I put up show Ronaldo is better. In every season I put up. No matter how long you keep denying it.

What stats? i looked at them. At the same stage in their careers Messi has been better. At 16/17/18/19/20/21 He has shown a superior level. At 21/22 Ronaldo took his game to a new level and Messi is already showing this season that he can match and even surpass that level after 17 games. It's the truth.

That is the problem. You are so sure Ronaldo can't improve but so sure Messi will. My question to you is what gives you the certainity? This season alone Ronaldo has already improved. He is scoring and creating more than last year at this similar stage even without top form. While Messi is just fit. Not differrent in anyway from what he was last year. He is only just playing in a much improved side. That is why he is scoring and creating more. Because he is not doing all the work in the frontline alone anymore. .

I didn't say he can't improve. What i said is he has made such leaps and bounds in his development in the last couple season that i can't imagine he would make such a great leap again. When people get to higher levels, the highest of levels i think it becomes much harder to push on and get to an even greater level. That is my opinion. He can still improve areas of his game i just don't see him drastically improving the way he has done in the past because of the level he has already reached.

That's why I'm wondering why you are so sure Messi can surpass such a player. When he hismelf needs very little improving. Yet Ronaldo has shown the capacity for his game to keep evolving to higher levels. For the past the years consecutively.


It has already been proved other wise. You just dont want to admit it.

Messi is a virtual veteran of barca at 21 years old. He is now the number 10 at the club and coming out of the shadow of two poor seasons. The club now feels stable and seccure and are pushing in the right direction. He now has a the platform that any great player needs to show his true worth. Ronaldo has had that for years but with the way Barca were with dressing room factions and unrest it has been difficult for Messi despite him carrying them as much as he could as a 19/20 year old.

Messi doesn't need 40 goals to reach Ronaldo. He has either develop a simlar all round game. Or become so good at what he does ala Mardona that he is head and shoulders above any one else. the way Mardona was with legends like Platini.

I think he can, he has shown he has it in him.

The unfortante thing, even though you don't intend it, you seem to project that you have this idea Ronaldo does not bring thing like being a match winner, a creator and a heart beat (remember the United is a one man side jibes), that all Ronaldo bring is goals. When If Ronaldo had played alongside a person who could finish almost as well as him last year, his assist stats would have been through the roof too. Not just his goals. And you wouldn't have a vlaid basis for such statements.

I know ronaldo can be a matchwinner, and create goals as well as score them. I just see Messi being more creative more often, or taking matches on his own whlist Ronaldo seems more dependent on his team. I see these qualities you speak of in both players. Just more often with Messi.

& If you do not know by now or can't admit Ronaldo has much more than goals to his game, then you are totally biased.

I don't think it. I know it. You are often beyond unfair towards Ronaldo.

Furthemore I don't have to take a greater look at Messi to know how good he is or why folk rate him. I myself rate him. For I'm not blind neither, do I live under a rock. He is the second most naturally talented player I've seen since Maradona.(More so than Ronaldinho, who is the other one). But as it stands now, he isn't better than Ronaldo and its going to be hard for him to surpass Ronaldo. Very Hard, though not impossble. Especially when he often gets injured and as player has very little to improve upon. Yet he is competing with a player who hardly gets injured, on top of being a forward almost as complete as Pele was. With a similar knack as the great one for scoring and setting records. While showing an incredilble capacity to improve on his game to levels no one believed he could attain, in a manner un matched in world football.

For the fact that you admit he is such a natural talent answers why i think Messi can go onto do what i think he can. Messi is very professional and with his natural talent i don't see how anything but injuries can stop him. He is very focused. I think that is also one of Ronaldos main attributes, forget his talents and its his mental and physical application and dedication to his football.

But seriously you can not compare Ronaldo to Pele. Pele was ripping apart world cups as a 17 year old.

For my money those two have a chance of reaching the heights Pele and Maradona reached. If they keep their current rate up. & assuming no other player steps up aa later stage liek Zidane did.

But who will be ultimately greater, we shall find out in about 8 years time. When their eras will start drawing to a close. Not now when all we have is just opinion. And not even a single season in which both have been on fire from start to finish, at the same time, in fly functioning team, for us to properly judge.

I hope they can reach such heights because it would be fanstastic to see but it is a tall order even for such talents.

I hope we can have a few seasons of both injury free and at the top of their games. Hopefully with Ronaldo at United although if he was at Madrid it would be even more in the spot light i feel.

Thing is even in 8 years time Ronaldos career might be winding down but Messi should still be at his peak for a few years due to the age difference.

 

[Brwned]

Again banal attempts to belittle Messi.

'Cause you never do that with Ronaldo, eh?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

What stats? i looked at them. At the same stage in their careers Messi has been better. At 16/17/18/19/20/21 He has shown a superior level. At 21/22 Ronaldo took his game to a new level and Messi is already showing this season that he can match and even surpass that level after 17 games. It's the truth.

In your eyes alone. Not according to what those irrefutable stats I posted say. There is nothing more that can be said on the matter. We'll just have to agree to disagree on how we see them.

I didn't say he can't improve. What i said is he has made such leaps and bounds in his development in the last couple season that i can't imagine he would make such a great leap again.

Why cant you? This season alone he has already improved on last year. Last year with bad form he hardly did much. This year with bad form he has 8 goals and 3 assists. Playing even deeper than he did last year.

When people get to higher levels, the highest of levels i think it becomes much harder to push on and get to an even greater level. That is my opinion. He can still improve areas of his game i just don't see him drastically improving the way he has done in the past because of the level he has already reached.

As you said it's your opinion. An interesting one . Which though calls into question why you think Messi can get so much better. When we both know he is already close to perfect in terms of maturity and level in terms of what he player of his style and size does.

Messi is a virtual veteran of barca at 21 years old. He is now the number 10 at the club and coming out of the shadow of two poor seasons. The club now feels stable and seccure and are pushing in the right direction. He now has a the platform that any great player needs to show his true worth

TBF when Ronaldinho was there in his pomp Messi had it too. It's only injuries that really held him back. Unfortuntaley they still do.

Ronaldo has had that for years

Sorry but that's untrue. Ronaldo came when United where honestly shit cpmapred to now. With men like Djemba Djemba and Smith playing in our midfield and the likes of Carroll in goal etc. We have only been good for the last 2 seasons.

but with the way Barca were with dressing room factions and unrest it has been difficult for Messi despite him carrying them as much as he could as a 19/20 year old.

Well and Good.But Ronaldo never had it any easier here. He may not have hard the dressing room discord. But he was handed the number 7 shirt on his back aged just 17/18. The shirt of club symbols, Best and Cantona, plus that of the impressive Beckham who he was succeding. In a club that was in rebuilding phase for at least 3 seasons. With a shit midfield and Keepers plus one reliable striker. Expected to be a major creative outlet and also a goal source in a team that frankly wasn't that good. But he still did well. To the extne United even started being accused of being a one man team. Despite being rather immature and raw when he arrived.

I think he can, he has shown he has it in him.

He has yet to show it. Ronaldo's current awards speak it for themselves.

I know ronaldo can be a matchwinner, and create goals as well as score them. I just see Messi being more creative more often, or taking matches on his own whlist Ronaldo seems more dependent on his team. I see these qualities you speak of in both players. Just more often with Messi.

Ronaldo is not seemingly more depedant on his team. United wouldn't have been accused of being a one man side at one point if it wasn't the a case. Both players go up several levels when their team mates are pulling their weight. But have proven time and again they can survive on their on. Messi last year, Ronaldo often in 2007 and some times last season.

For the fact that you admit he is such a natural talent answers why i think Messi can go onto do what i think he can.

Think it. By all means. That wont necessarily make it so. Because even Maradona himself never succeded in overtaking Pele in achievements/greatness. Or DiStefano either.

Messi is very professional and with his natural talent i don't see how anything but injuries can stop him. He is very focused. I think that is also one of Ronaldos main attributes, forget his talents and its his mental and physical application and dedication to his football.

But you still seem to think something will stop/slow down Ronaldo. I guess it's something I wont quite understand about you.

But seriously you can not compare Ronaldo to Pele. Pele was ripping apart world cups as a 17 year old.

I believe I can. Ronaldo is mirroring his style of play with each passing season. Getting closer and closer to the compete attacking forward Pele was. (42 in a season) I don't have to factor in what he was at 17. For Ronaldo improves at a rate unsurpassed in modern football. That he might actually get there.

I hope they can reach such heights because it would be fanstastic to see but it is a tall order even for such talents.

I agree. The focus and dedication of the two to their game IMO gives them a good chance.

I hope we can have a few seasons of both injury free and at the top of their games. Hopefully with Ronaldo at United although if he was at Madrid it would be even more in the spot light i feel.

True

Thing is even in 8 years time Ronaldos career might be winding down but Messi should still be at his peak for a few years due to the age difference.

Very true. I had forgotten that

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Why cant you? This season alone he has already improved on last year. Last year with bad form he hardly did much. This year with bad form he has 8 goals and 3 assists. Playing even deeper than he did last year.

He has improved in what way? Has the whole team improved or just ronaldo? I'm not sure, he hasn't managed a goal in europe so far but in the league he has managed 8 in 10 which is impressive so far. Although goals agaisnt Bolton, west brom, west ham, hull and stoke isn't exactly unusual.

Sorry but that's untrue. Ronaldo came when United where honestly shit cpmapred to now. With men like Djemba Djemba and Smith playing in our midfield and the likes of Carroll in goal etc. We have only been good for the last 2 seasons.

Fair enough but that allows him to develope without such expectations. United fans knew they were rebuilding and it allowed Ronaldo to gain experience whilst not facing the extream expectations that the team now faces.

Well and Good.But Ronaldo never had it any easier here. He may not have hard the dressing room discord. But he was handed the number 7 shirt on his back aged just 17/18. The shirt of club symbols, Best and Cantona, plus that of the impressive Beckham who he was succeding. In a club that was in rebuilding phase for at least 3 seasons. With a shit midfield and Keepers plus one reliable striker. Expected to be a major creative outlet and also a goal source in a team that frankly wasn't that good. But he still did well. To the extne United even started being accused of being a one man team. Despite being rather immature and raw when he arrived.

He did okay. He was no revelation in his early years. He was critisized but showed great promise. He was given the number as it was vacant and he was regarded as one of the biggest talents in europe. Did he have it easier than Messi? Maybe he did because he was afforded games. At the same age Messi broke into the team as a 17/18 year old when Barca were truely great. Is it easier to break into a team that is winning, the best team in europe at the time with alot of high profile stars and hold your own with Ronaldinho and Eto'o in the form of their lives? Not sure.

Don't forget that Ronaldo played a full season in 2002/2003 before even joining United. This is valuble. In Messis first taste of a season it was 2004/2005 and he made 9 appearances.

He has yet to show it. Ronaldo's current awards speak it for themselves.

In two or three years time that could change, he could add to his already impressive awards haul. He already has a champions league and 2 la liga winners medals to his name. As well as individual awards and international awards.

Of course he doesn't have the same amount as Ronaldo but as i said in 2 or 3 years when he is at the stage in his career that Ronaldo finds himself now it is not inconcievable to think that he could win the Ballon D'or as well as another champions league and la liga titles.

Ronaldo is not seemingly more depedant on his team. United wouldn't have been accused of being a one man side at one point if it wasn't the a case. Both players go up several levels when their team mates are pulling their weight. But have proven time and again they can survive on their on. Messi last year, Ronaldo often in 2007 and some times last season.

But what Messi shows me is that when he is playing well he makes the team play well. I think that is more Rooneys role at United than Ronaldos. If Rooeny is on the park i think it has been proven that he can elevate the team. Messi being on the pitch makes a catastrophic difference, regardless of the form of the team. This season people go on and on about the form of Barca. But yet when Messi doesn't play they are not a 3rd as prolific or effective. This is proven by stats i have posted previously yet no-one has commented on them strangely enough.

Think it. By all means. That wont necessarily make it so. Because even Maradona himself never succeded in overtaking Pele in achievements/greatness. Or DiStefano either.

But you still seem to think something will stop/slow down Ronaldo. I guess it's something I wont quite understand about you.

I don't think anything will slow him down or stop Ronaldo. He has been at such a high level in terms of goal scoring that i think it is only natural he will come down a bit. I would seriously be surprised and eat my words if he scores over 40 goals in a season.

My point is that players can reach unreal levels. Del Piero is an example where he reached a great level but it didnt sustain. That is the acid test if you will. To sustain your best over a sustained period is something that seperates greats with legends in my opinion. He still has this test, so does messi but you point it out yourself when you say that messi seemed to play brilliant as a kid and now as he becomes more mature at 21. I don't see him slowing i see him sustaining and improving now.

I believe I can. Ronaldo is mirroring his style of play with each passing season. Getting closer and closer to the compete attacking forward Pele was. (42 in a season) I don't have to factor in what he was at 17. For Ronaldo improves at a rate unsurpassed in modern football. That he might actually get there.

Pele was complete at 17 and sustained his level for his entire career. He was prolific yes but not just that, he was an all round player. He scored 77 goals for brazil in 92 games and probably set up just as many. To say Ronaldo has pele like qualities i think is far fetched. He scored 6 in 4 in his first world cup aged 17. This is a phenomenon of a player. Ronaldo has an ice age to go before you can put him in the same sentence as Pele. Only Maradona can be truely compared.

 

[vijay]

morons

 

[vijay]

cesc mullet

 

[Brwned]

This season people go on and on about the form of Barca. But yet when Messi doesn't play they are not a 3rd as prolific or effective. This is proven by stats i have posted previously yet no-one has commented on them strangely enough.

That might be because I'm sure the stats are similar without Ronaldo in our team, judging from how we missed him this season and how many goals and assists he got in the past two years.

 

[Red Pavan]

morons

I like their wonderfully crafted E-arguments and they should have probably realised that neither Messi nor Ronaldo would browse this forum.

 

[vijay]

try reading my post 874.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

That might be because I'm sure the stats are similar without Ronaldo in our team, judging from how we missed him this season and how many goals and assists he got in the past two years.

Messi on the pitch Barca score every 25mins. Messi off they score every 71 mins.

 

[Brwned]

Messi on the pitch Barca score every 25mins. Messi off they score every 71 mins.

They average 96 minutes per match.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

They average 96 minutes per match.

Okay, let me break it down for you.

In 90mins they score ever 25 with messi.

In 90mins they score every 71 without messi.

 

[Brwned]

Okay, let me break it down for you.

In 90mins they score ever 25 with messi.

In 90mins they score every 71 without messi.

Right so they average three goals a game with him, basically, and 1 goal a game without him. Impressive.

I'll get back to this sometime this week and have a look at last season's results with and without Ronaldo and see if there's any sort of comparison.

Baring in mind I'm not actually making the point that Messi has less influence on that Barcelona team than Ronaldo did on ours, because I think you're right in that Messi has become even more important to them because of his creativity, but I'd say that Ronaldo's stats aren't too dissimilar.

That's just a guess though, we'll see.

Credit to you on keeping up the Messi argument, I give up after 7 or 8 posts because it becomes so repetitive.

 

[B Cantona]

Pele was complete at 17 and sustained his level for his entire career. He was prolific yes but not just that, he was an all round player. He scored 77 goals for brazil in 92 games and probably set up just as many. To say Ronaldo has pele like qualities i think is far fetched. He scored 6 in 4 in his first world cup aged 17. This is a phenomenon of a player. Ronaldo has an ice age to go before you can put him in the same sentence as Pele. Only Maradona can be truely compared.

Maradona didn't have Pele's scoring stats, nor anywhere near. Then again he didn't spend his career in weak domestic divisions, and playing uncompetitive tour matches... can't argue with what he did in World Cups though. Again the difference with Maradona is that Pele had a truely brilliant team around him. But it's toss up stuff based on peoples opinions

For Ronaldo, and Messi for that, to join their ranks, he has to lead his teams to the greatest honours, and perform to the highest levels on the biggest occasions. They can't possibly achieve that at their current ages, we won't know until towards the end of their careers. Both are at clubs and are in international sides capable of winning anything they enter, so there's no excuse for either

I prefer Messi as a player, and I genuinely think he has more to his game than Ronaldo, which is saying something. But I hope Ronaldo, for as long as he's at United, shits all over Messi's club record!!!

 

[VP]

Okay, let me break it down for you.

In 90mins they score ever 25 with messi.

In 90mins they score every 71 without messi.

I'm not so sure about this stat you keep banging on about.

How many games has Messi not played this season? Plus there are too many other variables like the quality of opposition Barca played against without Messi, other players missing etc.

Would be more useful at the end of the season.

 

[VP]

When Ronaldo has started United have average 1 goal in 36 minutes

When he hasn't started United have averaged 1 goal in 135 minutes (not including the Blackburn game)

Stats, eh?

 

[Danny Meehan]

There are a lot of variables in all the stats, the biggest one being they play in different leagues. Bring Messi to the premiership and then see what he can do.

 

[peterstorey]

There are a lot of variables in all the stats, the biggest one being they play in different leagues. Bring Messi to the premiership and then see what he can do.

I think we might see the pair of them in la Liga before too long.

 

[charlenefan]

I think we might see the pair of them in la Liga before too long.

You hope

 

[reddev07]

I think we might see the pair of them in la Liga before too long.

Agreed.

Fabregas and Adebayor should do well in La Liga.

Good luck to them.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

He has improved in what way?

If you can't see how he has improved you are blind!

Has the whole team improved or just ronaldo?

Our team is playing in an inferior manner to what we were playing at this time last year. So it's not what has improved.

I'm not sure, he hasn't managed a goal in europe so far but in the leagute he has manged 8 in 10 which is impressive so far. Although goals agaisnt Bolton, west brom, west ham, hull and stoke isn't exactly unusual

Yea It's not unusual for Ronaldo to score that many and set up 3 goals when no where near his top form Your bias against him is extreme really.

Fair enough but that allows him to develope without such expectations. United fans knew they were rebuilding and it allowed Ronaldo to gain experience whilst not facing the extream expectations that the team now faces.

You are mad if you think there were no expectations on him to develop here. United always want to win and be first. Shit squad or not. Just like Barca. Pressure on him was huge. Especially after the debut he had and what he did to our side in the Lisbon friendly prior to that. & the fat we got him instead of Ronaldinho. Everyone expected that he had to exhibit the maturity of Rooney at that age when playing. At one stage some United fans were even writing him off and claiming folk like Duff were better than him

He did okay. He was no revelation in his early years. He was critisized but showed great promise. He was given the number as it was vacant and he was regarded as one of the biggest talents in europe. Did he have it easier than Messi? Maybe he did because he was afforded games.

Another lousy attempt to belittle Ronaldo. Messi when he broke through didn't come with big price tag on his back. Nor di he have a shirt number of legends of the club. Messi was also afforded games too. To the extent he even stole Giuly's number from him.

At the same age Messi broke into the team as a 17/18 year old when Barca were truely great. Is it easier to break into a team that is winning, the best team in europe at the time with alot of high profile stars and hold your own with Ronaldinho and Eto'o in the form of their lives? Not sure.

That is because you don't want to admit the obvious truth that it's far easier to shine around stars at a big club than when surrounded by mostly dross. Especially when the person in question is polished at a young age. Which Ronaldo certainly wasn't.
But your biased anyway. So no surprise you're not sure. It just wouldn't do for you arguments.

Don't forget that Ronaldo played a full season in 2002/2003 before even joining United. This is valuble. In Messis first taste of a season it was 2004/2005 and he made 9 appearances.

That doesn't count for squat really. Ronaldo was at Lisbon. Messi at Barcelona. If Ronaldo was at United from day one he would have had as few games.

In two or three years time that could change, he could add to his already impressive awards haul. He already has a champions league and 2 la liga winners medals to his name. As well as individual awards and international awards.

We shall see. Ronaldo will have to play for a pretty unsuccessful side to let him hog all the glory. .

Of course he doesn't have the same amount as Ronaldo but as i said in 2 or 3 years when he is at the stage in his career that Ronaldo finds himself now it is not inconceivable to think that he could win the Ballon D'or as well as another champions league and la liga titles.

It's not inconceivable. But you are taking it for granted that it will happen.

But what Messi shows me is that when he is playing well he makes the team play well. I think that is more Rooneys role at United than Ronaldos. If Roony is on the park i think it has been proven that he can elevate the team. Messi being on the pitch makes a catastrophic difference, regardless of the form of the team. This season people go on and on about the form of Barca. But yet when Messi doesn't play they are not a 3rd as prolific or effective. This is proven by stats i have posted previously yet no-one has commented on them strangely enough.

Why not go and dig up the stats on how we faired earlier this season before Ronaldo's return form injury. Then come back and see how wrong your post actual is.

I don't think anything will slow him down or sp Ronaldo. He has been at such a high level in terms of goal scoring that i think it is only natural he will come down a bit. I would seriously be surprised and eat my words if he scores over 40 goals in a season.

That is the problem. You only see Ronaldo as a goal scorer. The other aspects of his game simply don't register with you.

My point is that players can reach unreal levels. Del Piero is an example where he reached a great level but it didnt sustain. That is the acid test if you will. To sustain your best over a sustained period is something that seperates greats with legends in my opinion. He still has this test, so does messi but you point it out yourself when you say that messi seemed to play brilliant as a kid and now as he becomes more mature at 21. I don't see him slowing i see him sustaining and improving now.

Messi has very little to improve upon. That is why you are wrong. Ronaldo on the other hand can still improve and has shown the capacity to do just that consistently.

Pele was complete at 17 and sustained his level for his entire career. He was prolific yes but not just that, he was an all round player. He scored 77 goals for brazil in 92 games and probably set up just as many. To say Ronaldo has pele like qualities i think is far fetched.

That's silly really. Ronaldo is a complete forward. Just like Pele was at his age. Rated as the best in the world via awards. Like Pele was at his age. I don't need to look at them as 17 years old to make the comparison that Ronaldo is emulating the greta man talents. Pele didn't retire aged 17. Only the truly biased can deny that Ronaldo is beginning to emulate Pele himself. Especially in playing style the way Messi is doing with Maradona.

He scored 6 in 4 in his first world cup aged 17. This is a phenomenon of a player. Ronaldo has an ice age to go before you can put him in the same sentence as Pele. Only Maradona can be truely compared.

It seems you don't get what emulating is. Which is what Messi and Ronaldo are currently doing as regards Maradona and Pele. You seem to think I am calling those 2 Pele and Maradona.

 

[JCurr]

Boring.

 

[vijay]

 

[amolbhatia50k]

What a useless thread. They're both great players. Resume this thread on a yearly basis, in the summer, for like a month.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

How about a new subject to spice things up?

Who is better Messi or Ronaldo?

 

[Merman]

Ronaldo, easily.

 

[December_16]

I'd say Ronaldo

 

[FranklyVulgar]

If you can't see how he has improved you are blind.
Our team is playing in an inferior manner to what we were playing at this time last year. So it' not what has improved.

I haven't seen a performance from Ronaldo this season that makes me think he's improved himself sinse last season.

Yea It's not unusall for Ronaldo to score that many and set up 3 goals when no where near his top form Your bias againt him is extreme really.

He has scored goals against weak oppoistion in games dominated by United.

You are mad if you think there were no expectations on him to develop here. United always want to win and be first. Shit squad or not. Just like Barca. Pressure on him was huge. Especially after the debut he had and what he did to our side in the Lisbon friendly prior to that. & the fat we got him instead of Ronaldinho. Everyone expected that he had to exhibit the maturity of Rooney at that age when playing. At one stage some United fans were even writting him off and claimingg folk like Duff were better than him

Of course there are expectations i just said they wouldnt be extream and he wasn't exactly a Rooney amount of money for him so i wouldnt say it was a massive fee. Considering what you pay for Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves it appears Ronaldo was an absolute bargain.

Duff at Blackburn and Chelsea was very effective and in the form of his life, i don't find it inconcievable that he would be compared to Ronaldo then because ROnaldo wasn't half the player he is now.

Another lousy attempt to belittle Ronaldo. Messi when he broke through didn't come with big price tag on his back. Nor di he have a shirt numebr fo legends of the club. Messi was also afforded games too. To the extent he even stole Giuly's number from him.

Then why doesn't every big club in the world have world class young talent breaking through? Bojan has hardly had a sniff this season despite how obviously easy it is to break into the barca side as a talented young player.

He took Guilys place because despite how good the little french man was for the club (well loved by the fans too) Messi was performing at a level beyond him and on a par with Ronaldinho and Eto'o. He would have played even younger if he didn't have to wait for citizenship.

That is because you don't want to admit the obvious truth that it's far easier to shine around stars at a big club than when surrounded by mostly dross. Especially when the person in question is polished at a young age. Which Ronaldo certainly wasn't.
But your biased anyway. So no surprise you're not sure. Itr just wouldn't do for you arguments.

Again how is it easy to shine around stars? You have to be good enough to perform with them. If you can't match them or give a performance worthy of them then you won't be in the team. You have to earn it and Messi earned it and instantly showed why. How many times do you see players look great for mediocre teams and then make the step up to a big club and fail? It happens all the time. I don't agree one bit that it is far easier to shine around big stars because if you arnt at their level then it is quite glaringly obvious.

That doens't count for squat really. Roanldo was at Lisbon. Messi at Barcelona. If Ronaldo was at United form day one he would have had as few games.

It is top level football, it is valuble experience and it is playing time. All valuble to up and coming players.

We shall see. Ronaldo will have to play for a pretty unsuccessfull side to let him hog all the glory. .

It's not inconceiveable. But you are taking it for granted that it will happen.

I never said it "will happen" i think it will because i think he is good enough. You hark on about Ronaldos achievments ignoring that in two years time Messi could concievably match or better them. Even so achievments arn't the end all of the measure of a great player.

Why not go and dig up the stats on how we faired earlier this seoson before Ronaldo's return form injury. Then come back and see how wrong your post actual is.

Rooney was injured too right?

I forgot how United are notoriously fast out the blocks...

Messi has very little to improve upon. That is why you are wrong. Ronaldo on the other hand can still impove and has shown the capacity to do just that consistently.

You get on my case for saying i don't think Ronaldo will improve much more than he already has (given the massive improvements he's already made and he's almost 24. Yet Messi can't improve any more? he's hit his peak at 21?

Ronaldo has consistently improved no doubt about it but every player has a limit, no player improves forever. If Ronaldo continues to improve the way he has done already then he will no doubt become the best player ever. But can any player truely improve that much? Look at the legends, Maradona, Pele, Best, Cruyff, Beckenbauer... All were sensational at a very young age.

That's silly really. Ronaldo is a complete forward. Just like Pele was at his age. Rated as the best in the world via awards. Like Pele was at his age. I don't need to look at them as 17 years old to make the comparison that Ronaldo is emulating the greta man talents. Pele didn't retire aged 17. Only the truly biased can deny that Ronaldo is begining to emulate Pele himself. Especially in playing style the way Messi is doing with Maradona.


It seems you don't get what emulating is. Which is what Messi and Ronaldo are currently doing as regards Maradona and Pele. You seem to think I am calling those 2 Pele and Maradona.

You can make comparisons all you like but i think it is far more realistic to liken Messi to Maradona than Ronaldo to Pele.

Ronaldo will never achieve what Pele achieved however Messi could well achieve greater things than Maradona. However that does not mean he will go down as a better player, just in terms of achievments he could.

 

[Spoony]

Ronaldo will never achieve what Pele achieved however Messi could well achieve greater things than Maradona. However that does not mean he will go down as a better player, just in terms of achievments he could.

Sure.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Sure.

In terms of titles why not?

Sure Maradona if he played for a great side rather than make history with napoli could have won many more medals in his career but as far as medal hauls go his isn't the greatest. Although the mannor in which he gained them is what makes him remarkable.

 

[Spoony]

In terms of titles why not?

Sure Maradona if he played for a great side rather than make history with napoli could have won many more medals in his career but as far as medal hauls go his isn't the greatest. Although the mannor in which he gained them is what makes him remarkable.

Tht relly depends on how you define 'achieving greater things'. @ bigger med@l count, isn't in my opinion. In fct, isn#t, otherwise Nicky But could cl@im he achieved greter things thn Xico.(my fecking xed insn't working nd ll)

To be f@ir, it's not even f@ir to mention them in the sme sentence.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Tht relly depends on how you define 'achieving greater things'. @ bigger med@l count, isn't in my opinion. In fct, isn#t, otherwise Nicky But could cl@im he achieved greter things thn Xico.(my fecking xed insn't working nd ll)

To be f@ir, it's not even f@ir to mention them in the sme sentence.

True and i did say he could acheive greater things but it wouldn't make him a greater player.

Zico has a whole hosts of records and individual awards to his name which Butt couldn't complete with. Also in terms of domestic titles he has a fair number and will go down as the greatest ever player at his club.

In the same way that Maradona will with Napoli and Argentinos Juniors and Pele with Santos.

 

[Murphman]

Tht relly depends on how you define 'achieving greater things'. @ bigger med@l count, isn't in my opinion. In fct, isn#t, otherwise Nicky But could cl@im he achieved greter things thn Xico.(my fecking xed insn't working nd ll)

To be f@ir, it's not even f@ir to mention them in the sme sentence.

Innit strange, you make more sense with a busted keyboard. Weird.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tht relly depends on how you define 'achieving greater things'. @ bigger med@l count, isn't in my opinion. In fct, isn#t, otherwise Nicky But could cl@im he achieved greter things thn Xico.(my fecking xed insn't working nd ll)

To be f@ir, it's not even f@ir to mention them in the sme sentence.

Your slowly deteriorating keyboard reminds me of someone who's had a series of small strokes. Next thing you know, you'll be fitted for a pair of e-incontinence pads.

 

[AttackingFlair]

Right so they average three goals a game with him, basically, and 1 goal a game without him. Impressive.

I'll get back to this sometime this week and have a look at last season's results with and without Ronaldo and see if there's any sort of comparison.

Baring in mind I'm not actually making the point that Messi has less influence on that Barcelona team than Ronaldo did on ours, because I think you're right in that Messi has become even more important to them because of his creativity, but I'd say that Ronaldo's stats aren't too dissimilar.

That's just a guess though, we'll see.

Credit to you on keeping up the Messi argument, I give up after 7 or 8 posts because it becomes so repetitive.

I'd be surprised if he didn't have better stats considering he was the main one scoring for us.

 

[Eto'odinho]

All Hail the Chief. Chief you have made a staunch defence without actually belittling any of the players. Impressive stuff. Lets reopen this debate come the business end of the season.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I haven't seen a performance from Ronaldo this season that makes me think he's improved himself sinse last season.

Nothing Ronaldo does ever impresses you. That much is now clear...

He has scored goals against weak oppoistion in games dominated by United

So has your beloved Messi. Against Basle, Sporting Gijon, and Sporting Lisbon yet it hasnt stopped you praising him.

Of course there are expectations i just said they wouldnt be extream and he wasn't exactly a Rooney amount of money for him so i wouldnt say it was a massive fee. Considering what you pay for Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves it appears Ronaldo was an absolute bargain.

Ronaldo was 17. And incomparison to your Messi he was quite expensive. And the expectationa on him at that age were far higher than those on Messi. It's not even debatable.

Duff at Blackburn and Chelsea was very effective and in the form of his l]ife, i don't find it inconcievable that he would be compared to Ronaldo then because ROnaldo wasn't half the player he is now.

That is because you don't really respect Ronaldo's talents. Not for any other vailid reason. It was obvious even at 17 Ronaldo was going to surpass Duff. Hands down

Then why doesn't every big club in the world have world class young talent breaking through?

Because every big club is Barcelona. OR Arsenal. Two clubs who have always had a policy of giving chances to talented youth.

Bojan has hardly had a sniff this seaso despite how obviously easy it is to break into the barca side as a talented young player.

Puhlease Bojan isn't that special. That is why he isn't in the team now that E'too and Henry are back on song. If he hadthe talent of a 17 year old Rooney, Ronaldo or Messi, player like Hleb would have suffered Giuly's fate.

...... He would have played even younger if he didn't have to wait for citizenship.

BS. Messi would never have played at a younger age than he did.

Again how is it easy to shine around stars? You have to be good enough to perform with them. If you can't match them or give a performance worthy of them then you won't be in the team. You have to earn it and Messi earned it and instantly showed why.

How many times do you see players look great for mediocre teams and then make the step up to a big club and fail?

Not often. Players who have been truly great at poor teams usually get far better when surrounded by stars. Ronaldo is a classic example. Your are mixing big fish in a small pond syndrome with this issue.

I don't agree one bit that it is far easier to shine around big stars because if you arnt at their level then it is quite glaringly obvious.

When you have top class talent playing around stars it's harder for your inexperience to stand out. You have to be truly raw to look like shit amongst stars. But to shine amongst a shower of shit and look a world class talent is far harder at a young age. This should be obvious.

It is top level football, it is valuble experience and it is playing time. All valuble to up and coming players.

Playing for Sporting isn't top level football at all. Messi was far better off at that age at Barce than Ronaldo ever was at Sporting. He had miles better coaches and better players to learn from.

I never said it "will happen" i think it will because i think he is good enough. You hark on about Ronaldos achievments ignoring that in two years time Messi could concievably match or better them. Even so achievments arn't the end all of the measure of a great player.

To separate 2 great player they are. that is how Pele can easily be called greater than Maradona. Even though Maradona was clearly the more talented player.

Rooney was injured too right?

Wrong

I forgot how United are notoriously fast out the blocks...

Typical. United not being fast out of the blocks had detracts from the fact we missed Ronaldo badly earlier on this season right?

You get on my case for saying i don't think Ronaldo will improve much more than he already has (given the massive improvements he's already made and he's almost 24. Yet Messi can't improve any more? he's hit his peak at 21?

Messi hasn't peaked yet but he is nearer his peak maturity as a player. That last jump to maturity like it has proved for Rooney will be longer and harder to reach.

Ronaldo doesn't have the same issue for he wasn't as mature at a younger age.

Ronaldo has consistently improved no doubt about it but every player has a limit, no player improves forever. If Ronaldo continues to improve the way he has done already then he will no doubt become the best player ever. But can any player truely improve that much? Look at the legends, Maradona, Pele, Best, Cruyff, Beckenbauer... All were sensational at a very young age.

While men like Zidane were not.. But after age 25 they were. Ronaldo is that type. Because hew asn't super mature very young he will keep getting beetr with age. Player like Messi have very little to add on since they are super mature when they start out. They simply become they best at what what they do. Messi is already heading that way.

You can make comparisons all you like but i think it is far more realistic to like Messi to Maradona than Ronaldo to Pele.

It most certainly isn't.

Ronaldo will never achieve what Pele achieved

Yes he can. He can become the greatest in the world. Setting records no one can reach. Like Pele did. 42 goals in a season is a brilliant begining. For a player as complete as he is getting.

however Messi could well achieve greater things than Maradona.

Based on what?

However that does not mean he will go down as a better player, just in terms of achievments he could.

That's just your bias talking.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Nothing Ronaldo does ever impresses you. That much is now clear...

So has your beloved Messi. Against Basle, Sporting Gijon, and Sporting Lisbon yet it hasnt stopped you praising him.

And Madrid, Atletico, Sevilla, Espanyol and the 5 in europe...

That is because you don't really respect Ronaldo's talents. Not for any other vaild reason. It was obvious even at 17 Ronaldo was going to surpass Duff. Hands dwon

Obvious yes but why couldn't comparisons be made between a prime Duff (he was really good in his first season at cheslea) and Ronaldo blowing hot and cold as a teenager?

Because every big club is Barcelona. OR Arsenal. Two clubs who have always had a policy of giving chances to talented youth.

Not sure what you mean.

Puhlease Bojan isn't that special. That is why he isn't in the team now that E'too and Henry are back on song. If he hadthe talent of a 17 year old Rooney, Ronaldo or Messi, player like Hleb would have suffered Giuly's fate.

I rate Hleb pretty highly, who knows how special Bojan is. Eto'o didnt get a chance at Madrid and Rooney and Messi were both superior to Ronaldo at 17.

BS. Messi would never have played at a younger age than he did.

Why not? He just won the argies the under 20s world cup aged 17 but still had months to wait for his citizenship. Rijkaard said he didn't care if a player was 16 or 32. If they are able to play they are able, Messi was able.

Not often. Players who have been truly great at poor teams usually get far better when surrounded by stars. Ronaldo is a clasisc example. Your are mixing big fish in a small pond syndrome with this issue.

When you have top class talent playing around stars it's harder for your inexperience to stand out. You have to be truly raw to look like shit amongst stars. But to shine amongst a shower of shit and look a world class talent is far harder at a young age. This should be obvious.

I agree with you to a certain degree but why do good players fail at big teams then? If it is so easy to fit into a world class team and due to the players around you you will automatically look better then why does anyone ever look below par for good teams?

Playing for Sporting isn't top level football at all. Messi was far better off at that age at Barce than Ronaldo ever was at Sporting. He had miles better coaches and better players to learn from.

To separate 2 great player they are. that is how Pele can ealily be called greater than Maradona. Even though Maradona was clearly the more talented player.

Yeah again Messi is lucky to be at Barca....

Sporting aren't known for producing players. They don't have good coaches and a good academy...

I guess if Ronaldo was at Barca he'd already have surpassed Pele and Maradona.

Wrong

Didn't he get a virus in pre season disrupting him at a vital time? Which resulted in him struggling in his first few games?

Typical. United not being fast out of the blocks had detracts from the fact we missed Ronaldo badly earlier on this season right?

Maybe, it's not uncommon but i'm sure you are one of the people who point out that United are better off than they were at this point last season. So despite Ronaldo missing the start the team still picked up more points?

Messi hasn't peaked yet but he is nearer his peak maturity as a player. That last jump to maturity like it has proved for Rooney will be longer and harder to reach.

Fine, he is a mature player and has been sinse he burst onto the scene. He can still improve and quite a bit in my opinion despite being mature.

Ronaldo doesn't have the same issue for he wasn't as mature at a younger age.

While men like Zidane were not.. But after age 25 they were. Ronaldo is that type. Because hew asn't super mature very young he will keep getting beetr with age. Player like Messi have very little to add on since they are super mature when they start out. They simply become they best at what what they do. Messi is already heading that way.

Yeah due to Ronaldo not being mature at a young age he can find that maturity as he grows older meaning that basically every season he will improve where as Messi wont because he is already mature. So while Ronaldo develops maturity and becomes the greatest player the world has ever seen Messi will be damning the fact he was a natural at a young age and couldn't go on the path of steady improvement like Ronaldo...

It most certainly isn't.

Right, on the one hand we have a small argentinian player with brilliant dribbling skills and a great left foot. He does many things like Maradona and even scores goals almost identical to Maradona, one with his hand and one from the half way line. He is seen as the man to deliver Argentina the world cup the same as Maradona was.

On the other hand we have Ronaldo, he speaks portuguese, so does pele. They both are good in the air and good with both feet. But while you make your points about maturity you seem to forget that Pele was complete at 17, comparison ends.

Yes he can. He can become the greatest in the world. Setting records no one can reach. Like Pele did. 42 goals in a season is a brilliant begining. For a player as complete as he is getting.

That is the future and so far this season he doesn't look like setting any records.

Based on what?

That's just your bias talking.

Based on winning the champions league, winning many la ligas, winning more than one world cup, winning the copa america. These are achievments that he could achieve? Wouldn't winning two world cups be better than one? or Winning the copa america something Maradona was bitterly dissapointed not to do?